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Vettel Vs Webber - 2013 [merged]


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#2051 HoldenRT

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 18:28

Webber's strategy was retarded because it was clear after the first stint that with lower wing config he couldn't stay close in S2 and he'd burn out the tyres trying to stay close.  They never tried the undercut but tried a longer strategy that was neither here nor there.  They made the same mistake in BOTH stints.  His pace in clear air was quicker than the Mercs but he never got close to beating them on track.  I couldn't help but think that Redbull were distracted while worrying about Seb.  Even with the perfect strategy, Seb was clearly quicker.  He drove a great race and was unbeatable.  I'm not saying this as an after reaction, I already knew it while watching the race after the first stint, that's why the strategy was so retarded, because if I can see it.  How can the professionals not see it?


Edited by HoldenRT, 25 August 2013 - 18:30.


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#2052 Cool Beans

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 19:15

Webber told over team radio before warm-up lap that he has a clutch issue. FFS!

 

Surprise surprise  :well:



#2053 joshb

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 20:06

Imagine Di Montezemolo brought Horner, Vettel, Prodromou, Rocky, Rob Marshall, etc from RBR and enticed Rory Byrne out of his semi-retirement to lead Ferrari post 2015. And this bunch of people starts winning championships.

 

That would be something, isn't it?  :D

Imagine if they only got Vettel and started winning!!!



#2054 Cool Beans

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 22:13

Imagine if they only got Vettel and the other top driver that replaced him in that Red Bull started winning!!!



#2055 EthanM

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 22:40

 

It would be interesting to see if RBR evaluates the extra-skinny rear-wing again in Monza. They tested here on friday but did not use the wing during the race weekend.

 

Bring on Monza.

 

 

that IS the Monza wing, they never intended to race it in Spa, just to evaluate it



#2056 BillBald

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 00:09

Webber's strategy was retarded because it was clear after the first stint that with lower wing config he couldn't stay close in S2 and he'd burn out the tyres trying to stay close.  They never tried the undercut but tried a longer strategy that was neither here nor there.  They made the same mistake in BOTH stints.  His pace in clear air was quicker than the Mercs but he never got close to beating them on track.  I couldn't help but think that Redbull were distracted while worrying about Seb.  Even with the perfect strategy, Seb was clearly quicker.  He drove a great race and was unbeatable.  I'm not saying this as an after reaction, I already knew it while watching the race after the first stint, that's why the strategy was so retarded, because if I can see it.  How can the professionals not see it?

 

Red Bull missed the undercut at the first stop, but then fitted primes to Rosberg's options. The plan was obviously to have the advantage of options vs primes in the final stint. That depended on running a much longer 2nd stint.

 

They presumably thought that Rosberg would be struggling at the end of his 3rd stint, and Webber on fresher options would find it easy to get past. Arguably they should have made Webber's 2nd stint longer, giving him an even shorter final stint on options.

 

Basically they were not expecting the Merc to look after its tyres as well as it did.



#2057 Kelateboy

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 04:48

that IS the Monza wing, they never intended to race it in Spa, just to evaluate it

 

Thank you. I was not aware that the extra-skinny rear wing was meant for Monza. The wing (left inset) without the vortex generators on the end-plates was evaluated by Sebastian on friday and was fast on the straight (as expected) but was down 0.8s to Webber's medium-downforce rear wing in S2 alone.

 

On saturday morning, the team converged on the medium-DF RW configuration, and the wet/changeable conditions of the qualifying session make the decision to use medium-DF wing inevitable.

 

Let's hope they try the wing again in Monza.

 

 

 

bel-rbr-nose.jpghttp:/



#2058 sopa

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 10:33

Just one race left of the European F1 season. The current Euro-score: 95 pts for Vettel, 71 for Webber. 



#2059 SpeedRacer`

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 10:42

How many start problems has Webber had compared to Vettel over the last few years? Unbelieable.



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#2060 NexCL

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 10:44

How many start problems has Webber had compared to Vettel over the last few years? Unbelieable.

 

Very unbelievable. Vettel consistently has amazing starts, while Webber consistently has mysterious clutch problems. Not over a season but 3 years now. You do not see this disparity at other teams. Very weird..



#2061 sopa

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 10:49

Very unbelievable. Vettel consistently has amazing starts, while Webber consistently has mysterious clutch problems. Not over a season but 3 years now. You do not see this disparity at other teams. Very weird..

I remember Webber having pretty bad starts in Jaguar and Williams too. Something in his nature. Shame for him, because he would be a much more competitive driver if he had great starts. 



#2062 rasul

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 10:50

Very unbelievable. Vettel consistently has amazing starts, while Webber consistently has mysterious clutch problems. Not over a season but 3 years now. You do not see this disparity at other teams. Very weird..

There's no mystery to me. Webber is just not a good starter, and with years, his reaction seems to have gotten worse. I don't know if it's nerves, but this is a driver's problem, not the car's. In such cases, even a dominant car wouldn't help.

Vettel is a good starter.



#2063 Brother Fox

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 10:58

Then how do you explain him mostly getting off the line the same as those around, but it bogs down in the 2nd phase??

#2064 krapmeister

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 11:07

I remember Webber having pretty bad starts in Jaguar and Williams too. Something in his nature. Shame for him, because he would be a much more competitive driver if he had great average starts. 

 

:p  :well:



#2065 Kelateboy

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 01:57

Webber had 2 lousy practice starts and he admitted that in the post-race interview. As such, there was no good reference for him to make with regards to his starting procedures especially his clutch bite point, etc. Nevertheless, he was still fighting with Alonso on the run down to Eau Rouge, and he lost that position due to his compromised exit off La Source. It was not a totally rubbish start for Webber, but one which could have been better.

 

If you have to blame someone, then blame Webber's engineer for his inability to prepare the clutch perfectly for the start.



#2066 Kelateboy

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 02:01

Christian Horner :-

 

“I think Sebastian had worked it out in his own mind. He didn’t have a great start, but he went to the left hand side and focussed very much on getting a clean exit out of La Source, and a good run through Eau Rouge.

 

“I think with the gearing that we ran if he hadn’t made the pass at that point it would have been very difficult for him to overtake Lewis, so he used his KERS where he needed to, and timed it right, and grabbed his one opportunity. As soon as he’d made his pass around the outside he then just got his head down and got on with it.

 

“He had tremendous pace in the early laps, and of course what we don’t know with the modern way of racing in F1 is how high or severe the degradation is going to be. You can burn up your tyres quite quickly and then see heavy degradation in later laps.

 

“It was a matter then of making sure that we eked out a gap, but also made sure that we had the range with the tyres as well. So it’s that fine balance between how hard you push or how much do you protect your tyres to get the range. I think we just about managed to get the balance right with that.”

 

I tend to agree with Horner here that had Vettel not made that pass early on, he might have difficulties overtaking Hamilton when Hamilton's tyres were up to temperature. Just look at much how difficulties Webber had getting close to Rosberg in the race.

 

Has it been confirmed that Vettel did not use his KERS at the start, but instead use 100% KERS on the run down to Eau Rouge and along Kemmel straight to overtake Hamilton?


Edited by Kelateboy, 27 August 2013 - 11:22.


#2067 Kelateboy

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 11:20

Maybe Webber could get a few pointers from Michael Schumacher - the best starter in Formula 1 in 2011 gaining a total of 40 positions.   :lol:

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=6RGO8e7GxLE

 



#2068 Sin

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 11:57

I tend to agree with Horner here that had Vettel not made that pass early on, he might have difficulties overtaking Hamilton when Hamilton's tyres were up to temperature. Just look at much how difficulties Webber had getting close to Rosberg in the race.

 

Has it been confirmed that Vettel did not use his KERS at the start, but instead use 100% KERS on the run down to Eau Rouge and along Kemmel straight to overtake Hamilton?

 

both Horner and Seb said he used a few of it at the start but most on the run down to Eau Rouge and after it



#2069 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 13:12

So NOW that Webber's leaving the team, Horner thinks its high time to get on top of his reliability problems?

Riiiight.

#2070 Kelateboy

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 15:23

So NOW that Webber's leaving the team, Horner thinks its high time to get on top of his reliability problems?

Riiiight.

 

Maybe getting a much better Control Engineer for Webber would help with his start?

 

Who is Mark's Control Engineer anyway?



#2071 Njack

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 02:14

Webber had Ciaron Pilbeam till 2012, and now has Simon Rennie.

 

Amusingly, Pilbeam gave Raikkonen a last minute clutch change on the grid in China which resulted in a slow getaway.

 

 

Webber had 2 lousy practice starts and he admitted that in the post-race interview. As such, there was no good reference for him to make with regards to his starting procedures especially his clutch bite point, etc. Nevertheless, he was still fighting with Alonso on the run down to Eau Rouge, and he lost that position due to his compromised exit off La Source. It was not a totally rubbish start for Webber, but one which could have been better.

 

If you have to blame someone, then blame Webber's engineer for his inability to prepare the clutch perfectly for the start.

 

 

 

Horner: 

"For Mark, his clutch wasn't good in preparation going to the grid. We did our best to tidy it up but he conceded a place to Rosberg off the start. Once he was comprised in his positioning within the pack, he wasn't able to get a clean run through La Source and Alonso managed to get a run on him down the hill and pass him into Eau Rouge. Thereafter it was a matter of trying to find a way through, past the Mercedes and Ferrari ahead, but unfortunately whenever we got close enough we seemed to lose aero performance and so Mark couldn't get close enough to make a move. We didn't come here expecting to win today, so it's great to get a victory to start the second half of the season"

 

An article about Webbers starts: http://tinyurl.com/q6kesbv



#2072 DILLIGAF

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 08:46

So NOW that Webber's leaving the team, Horner thinks its high time to get on top of his reliability problems?

Riiiight.

:rotfl:  :up:



#2073 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 13:32

It's almost like Webber's retirement present: "thanks for being a good Number 2, Mark. Now we'll give a shit about your car in the last few races, just maybe you can get another win!"

:rolleyes:

Edited by NotSoSilentBob, 28 August 2013 - 13:33.


#2074 mnmracer

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 14:19

Aside from the one-sided story of the Webber followers that ignore everything that breaks on the other side of the garage, where does all this 'now Red Bull cares about reliability' stuff suddenly come from?

#2075 Kelateboy

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 13:49

1234681_364714346992094_1213579595_n.jpg

 

I find this F1 trivial interesting. Vettel vs Schumacher after 112 races.



#2076 Winter98

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 16:56

1234681_364714346992094_1213579595_n.jpg

 

I find this F1 trivial interesting. Vettel vs Schumacher after 112 races.

 

Thanks for post kelate.  Wow, the stats are very close.

 

I think it's fair to say SV has had stiffer competition, but MS did his work in a less competitive car overall. 

 

Or was MS so good he dwarfed the competition?


Edited by Winter98, 02 September 2013 - 16:59.


#2077 Winter98

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 17:55

Thank you. I was not aware that the extra-skinny rear wing was meant for Monza. The wing (left inset) without the vortex generators on the end-plates was evaluated by Sebastian on friday and was fast on the straight (as expected) but was down 0.8s to Webber's medium-downforce rear wing in S2 alone.

 

On saturday morning, the team converged on the medium-DF RW configuration, and the wet/changeable conditions of the qualifying session make the decision to use medium-DF wing inevitable.

 

Let's hope they try the wing again in Monza.

 

 

 

bel-rbr-nose.jpghttp:/

Thank you Kelateboy.   Great post for dummies like me. :)


Edited by Winter98, 02 September 2013 - 17:56.


#2078 Kelateboy

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 08:59

Thanks for post kelate.  Wow, the stats are very close.

 

I think it's fair to say SV has had stiffer competition, but MS did his work in a less competitive car overall. 

 

Or was MS so good he dwarfed the competition?

 

The stats are so close even though Schumi has not even touched his most dominant years yet 2000-2004. Once he got onto that period, the differences in stats between the drivers would be evident. 



#2079 Mrluke

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 10:30

1234681_364714346992094_1213579595_n.jpg

 

I find this F1 trivial interesting. Vettel vs Schumacher after 112 races.

 

The one that stands out to me is that MS has 31 wins from 17 poles whereas VET has 31 from 39 poles. Other than that they are very close :)



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#2080 Kelateboy

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 15:34

The one that stands out to me is that MS has 31 wins from 17 poles whereas VET has 31 from 39 poles. Other than that they are very close :)

 

Despite Vettel's penchant for going after the fastest lap statistics, Schumi still leads that category 31-19 over 112 races.



#2081 Zoetrope

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 17:18

Despite Vettel's penchant for going after the fastest lap statistics, Schumi still leads that category 31-19 over 112 races.

Except for fastest laps are no kind of achievement nowadays.



#2082 Brother Fox

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 03:32

The one that stands out to me is that MS has 31 wins from 17 poles whereas VET has 31 from 39 poles. Other than that they are very close :)

 

Thats what was the big one that stood out for me. Its not a bash against Vettel but looks mighty impressive from Shumi



#2083 bourbon

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 05:20

1234681_364714346992094_1213579595_n.jpg

 

I find this F1 trivial interesting. Vettel vs Schumacher after 112 races.

 

Seb has done an amazing job in so short a time.  Shouldn't it be Webber and Vettel after so many races in a top car?



#2084 Kelateboy

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 02:17

Italian GP : Sebastian Vettel expects tight qualifying at Monza
Red Bull's Sebastian Vettel says he expects a "tight" battle in Italian Grand Prix qualifying despite a dominant performance in practice.
 
The German was 0.623 seconds clear of his closest challenger, team-mate Mark Webber, in second practice at Monza.
 
Vettel said: "I think it will be close [in qualifying, with many cars within a couple of hundredths of a second]."
 
He said first practice, in which only 0.188secs separated the top four, was potentially more representative.
 
Vettel was fourth in the first session, behind Mercedes driver Lewis Hamilton, Ferrari's Fernando Alonso and the second Mercedes of Nico Rosberg.
Play media
 
"I felt pretty comfortable but I'm sure it will be very tight," Vettel said. "We saw that in first practice. Second practice if you look at it too much it is a bit of a distraction.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/23992721



#2085 jstrains

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 04:08

Vettel ignores Mark's goodbye party and stays playing with his iPhone a level below

http://www.bild.de/s...88208.bild.html



#2086 Sin

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 04:15

well first of all that's the Bild, which is like the Sun a boulevard magazine which likes to make headlines that overdramatize things...
 
second of all did you really expect Seb to go to Webbers good bye party? I don't think Webber would have gone to Sebs good bye party either... they don't like each other it would only be awkward and hypocritical to go there

#2087 Cool Beans

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 04:17

Vettel ignores Mark's goodbye party and stays playing with his iPhone a level below

http://www.bild.de/s...88208.bild.html

Clearly xenophobic towards Australians. 



#2088 Kelateboy

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 04:30

No biggie really.

 

And The Bild? That is really a reputable tabloid in Germany!



#2089 bourbon

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 04:51

What makes you think Seb was invited?



#2090 Sin

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 05:03

What makes you think Seb was invited?

that's a good point too...



#2091 Redback

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 05:40

I'm fairly certain Seb would have been invited, but I can understand him not wanting to attend.  If he wasn't invited then whomever organised the party, lacks social etiquette.  If he was invited then he should at least have put in a token appearance.  Perhaps he did, then politely retired?  We don't really know.

 

Storm in a teacup.



#2092 joshb

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 08:06

Vettel ignores Mark's goodbye party and stays playing with his iPhone a level below

http://www.bild.de/s...88208.bild.html

The media would write anything these days... had he gone it would be seen as a fake gesture just to get attention.

He doesn't like him, so why does he need to go? I don't go to parties for someone I don't like



#2093 KateLM

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 08:42

Well, as per Will Buxton's tweets there does seem to be some truth in it. I think Vettel is slightly damned if he does and damned if he doesn't in this case, if he showed up it would look insincere to most. I can feel some sympathy, although it may have been better to slope off somewhere else than sit alone somewhere all the journos could see him - slightly makes it seems like he was trying to make a point, even if it wasn't the case.

 

It's hardly like Webber would be offended though, I think the party was much more about the Red Bull team than the man himself anyway - especially given Will's next tweet. Seems mostly a 'we like Mark really, honest' exercise - and there's an undertone to how the team insist on acting like he's retiring that I'm not sure I like.



#2094 Kelateboy

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 08:57

I'm fairly certain Seb would have been invited, but I can understand him not wanting to attend.  If he wasn't invited then whomever organised the party, lacks social etiquette.  If he was invited then he should at least have put in a token appearance.  Perhaps he did, then politely retired?  We don't really know.

 

Storm in a teacup.

 

A very sensible post!  :up:



#2095 Kelateboy

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 13:54

Anybody expecting fireworks going into the 1st corner tomorrow? Or will Webber be getting a bad clutch bite point reading from his Control Engineer once again? 

 

This thread will go into a melt-down if Webber has a KERS or start issue yet again. :lol:

 

On a serious note, does anybody know how many practice starts Webber had in the 3 free practices?



#2096 Obi Offiah

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 14:37

Mark will make a poor start tomorrow, but simply because he is poor off the line.  I wonder if he will beat Seb in qualifying of a race this year.



#2097 krea

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 16:01

Mark will make a poor start tomorrow, but simply because he is poor off the line.  I wonder if he will beat Seb in qualifying of a race this year.

 

Don't believe it - except if Vettel has a technical problem or if it part of the strategy not make a lap in Q3 or something like that.



#2098 f1motogp

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 17:44

Good on Webber if he didn't invite him!
Good on Vettel if he ignored his invitation!

They not only aren't friend but also dislike eachother, so an invitation from Webber or an attendance by Vettel would have been hypocrisy.



#2099 Watkins74

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 17:51

I am not really a Webber fan but I would like to see him get that elusive podium at Monza. Good luck to Mark.



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#2100 OldSoldier2

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 18:03

No biggie really.

 

And The Bild? That is really a reputable tabloid in Germany!

My daughter, while studying German in Germany, stated that the Bild was written in simple German for simple Germans.