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Vettel Vs Webber - 2013 [merged]


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#2251 GlenP

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 13:24

Really excited now - about time Mark had a break. Come on - a nice start for once, please!



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#2252 Kelateboy

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 13:34

If you look at Mark Webber's pole lap, he used up all his KERS in S2 - on the straight preceding Spoon and on the exit of Spoon. Mark had an advantage of 40.963s (1) vs Vettel's 41.254s (7) in  that middle sector - the difference of 0.291s. It is generally accepted that KERS gives out 0.1s - 0.4s per lap advantage depending on the specific circuits. BTW, Vettel was the fastest in S1 and S3.

 

I thought it was a great effort by Vettel to grab P2. He will be starting on the dirty side, but anything could happen off the start given Mark's history of a lousy start.

 

This was a radio transcript from Singapore as highlighter by @Racer3 in post 2204 above.

 

Pre-race

Simon Rennie to Mark Webber:

"Just a reminder on that start you were a bit hard on the throttle before so a little bit less on the throttle and keep it constant until you drop the second paddle, please. Normal procedures."

 

Formation lap:

Simon Rennie to Mark Webber:

"Remember, hold the clutch for four seconds before first gear and sync all gears early."

 

Formation lap again

Simon Rennie to Mark Webber:

"At the start do not go on throttle early."

 

Would Webber's performance engineer get his clutch bite point correct this time around? 



#2253 krea

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 14:08

Why his engineer? Sounds more like a problem of Webber.



#2254 Kelateboy

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 15:38

Why his engineer? Sounds more like a problem of Webber.

 

Based on his various practice starts during free practices and qualifying, Webber would feed that information to his Performance engineer. His performance engineer would do the calculation based on tyre grip, the level of grip from the track surface and the tyre temperatures, as well as the clutch setting based on wheelspein experienced,and will give the engine rev for him (Webber) to maintain during the start. Normally it is in the 13,000 to 14,000rpm. If this reading is wrong, then Webber would have issues at the start. 



#2255 hupholland

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 16:52

If you look at Mark Webber's pole lap, he used up all his KERS in S2 - on the straight preceding Spoon and on the exit of Spoon. Mark had an advantage of 40.963s (1) vs Vettel's 41.254s (7) in  that middle sector - the difference of 0.291s. It is generally accepted that KERS gives out 0.1s - 0.4s per lap advantage depending on the specific circuits. BTW, Vettel was the fastest in S1 and S3.

KERS affects all sections, even in S1 as you can save KERS in your outlap and use it when going on to the start/finish line.. most of KERS is used coming out of S2 going into S3, so that will also give you a bit of an advantage in S3. Also I think I saw Webber saving a bit of KERS for the final sector, but 100% sure of that. Anyway, seemed very likely Vettel would have scored pole with KERS available. On BBC they were saying KERS is worth about 0,4-0,5 sec a lap in Suzuka.



#2256 sennafan24

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 17:14

There is a chance Webber has been drinking his milk again.

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Be3-J9XtJCw



#2257 Alfisti

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 18:23

This complicates matters, means I will lively stay up to watch it live after Bathurst. 1am start for me.

#2258 fastwriter

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 18:28

Horner himself stated in an Interview with RTL that having no KERS on a Suzuka Lap costs you 0,4 Seconds. I presume, he should know.

Edited by fastwriter, 12 October 2013 - 18:28.


#2259 krea

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 19:25

Based on his various practice starts during free practices and qualifying, Webber would feed that information to his Performance engineer. His performance engineer would do the calculation based on tyre grip, the level of grip from the track surface and the tyre temperatures, as well as the clutch setting based on wheelspein experienced,and will give the engine rev for him (Webber) to maintain during the start. Normally it is in the 13,000 to 14,000rpm. If this reading is wrong, then Webber would have issues at the start. 

 

I don't read a technical reason for the bad starts in the radio massages but that Webber is too aggressive with the throttle. It's the human factor, not sure what an engineer can do here.



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#2260 EthanM

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 20:04

No way is KERS 4 and a half tenths. No way. 

Webber's had no kers for plenty of races, are you telling me that cost him 30 seconds over race distance?

 

watch FP1, BBC coverage. it's available on iplayer. Full day before Vettel's KERS failed and yes, they said KERS is about 0.4 per lap in Suzuka



#2261 Thomas99

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 22:50

Webber may have had KERS but he also had a car with a low downforce setup on it that probably gave away a few tenths for better race pace. That config could have easily been 2 tenths slower.

 

Same as Korea, Webber was 2 tenths off Seb but had a car that gave away ultimate pace for overtaking ability.


Edited by Thomas99, 12 October 2013 - 22:51.


#2262 krea

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 23:24

Webber may have had KERS but he also had a car with a low downforce setup on it that probably gave away a few tenths for better race pace. That config could have easily been 2 tenths slower.

 

Same as Korea, Webber was 2 tenths off Seb but had a car that gave away ultimate pace for overtaking ability.

 

He had a "race setting" because of the penalty - though the differences aren't big..

 

In the other races he had a similar setting as Vettel (see the top speeds of the two).


Edited by krea, 12 October 2013 - 23:25.


#2263 Thomas99

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 23:45

He had a "race setting" because of the penalty - though the differences aren't big..

 

In the other races he had a similar setting as Vettel (see the top speeds of the two).

 

We're talking about Japan. Webber topped the speed traps, hes on low df.



#2264 icecream

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 00:30

so with low downforce, as long as webber is infront after t1, he's going to be pretty hard to pass.   really hope he nails his start. 



#2265 ThomFi

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 00:59

so with low downforce, as long as webber is infront after t1, he's going to be pretty hard to pass.   really hope he nails his start. 

 

The wind will play a big role. Compared to Friday, the wind changed its direction today (Saturday). In qualifying, there was a tail wind on the straights and a head wind in sector one. If it stays like that, it could be an advantage for Webber.

Mercedes obviously expects, that the wind will change its direction again, while Lotus thinks the wind direction will stay the same as today.

http://www.motorspor...d-13101255.html

 

Also, Vettel's more conservative setup could be better in terms of tire wear. The Mercedes drivers are also on different setups. It will be interesting to see, how it will turn out.



#2266 Kelateboy

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 01:50

Horner himself stated in an Interview with RTL that having no KERS on a Suzuka Lap costs you 0,4 Seconds. I presume, he should know.

 

You get 80bhp boost for 6.67s for a single lap. However there is a double boost KERS for qualifying because normally, the drivers would discharge all KERS harvested during his out-lap on the final corner before the start-finish straight.

 

Formula1.com website put the figure gained from KERS at 0.1s-0.4s per lap depending on the circuit's characteristic.

 

http://www.formula1....sport/8763.html



#2267 sanjiro

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 04:01

You get 80bhp boost for 6.67s for a single lap. However there is a double boost KERS for qualifying because normally, the drivers would discharge all KERS harvested during his out-lap on the final corner before the start-finish straight.

 

Formula1.com website put the figure gained from KERS at 0.1s-0.4s per lap depending on the circuit's characteristic.

 

http://www.formula1....sport/8763.html

 

Not having KERS is not the same as having busted KERS

In almost every case where RBR KERS has failed the driver (SV or MW) have lost close to 0.4+s

If it was only worth 0.1-0.4 MW would have been better off running without it and have more weight to distribute for handling.

 

P.S. conspiracy hat tells me that the KERS systems of many teams are helping with "traction management" so loosing it is bigger than just loosing the power and still carrying the weight



#2268 Kelateboy

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 04:12

On reflection was #Vettel Q3 P2 lap - sans KERS - one of the best #F1 has ever seen? I hear other drivers v impressed #JapaneseGP #redbullracing

 

Darren Heath @F1Photographer



#2269 Kelateboy

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 04:22

Not having KERS is not the same as having busted KERS

In almost every case where RBR KERS has failed the driver (SV or MW) have lost close to 0.4+s

If it was only worth 0.1-0.4 MW would have been better off running without it and have more weight to distribute for handling.

 

P.S. conspiracy hat tells me that the KERS systems of many teams are helping with "traction management" so loosing it is bigger than just loosing the power and still carrying the weight

 

We would not know for sure whether it is 0.1s or 0.4s or even 1.0s deficit caused by the lack of KERS - we are just speculating. But Formula1.com website - the official F1 website - puts the figure within that range. Given the double boost offered by the extra KERS at the start, the figure might be slightly higher. It is also in line with Horner's estimate of 0.4s loss suffered by Vettel.

 

I am perfectly clear that not having KERS is not the same as having busted KERS. That was why Vettel was asked to change his brake balance 3 clicks rearwards to compensate for the loss of KERS, Even then Vettel complained of the car being poor under braking, and further stated that "Front Wing is OK, you could argue plus 2, but doesn't really make a difference".

 

This is no longer 2009.



#2270 mnmracer

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 07:23

Disgusting. They pit Webber on the 3 stop which was slower on purpose. Red Bull knew the plan all along.

tin-foil-hat.jpg



#2271 Group B

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 07:24

Disgusting. They pit Webber on the 3 stop which was slower on purpose. Red Bull knew the plan all along.

 

:rolleyes:

 

Grow up.



#2272 plumtree

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 07:34

To make it sure, before people are going mad...

 

The team radio message was to Perez who didn't follow blue flag, not to Webber.

Sky commentators sure love dramas which aren't there. :o


Edited by plumtree, 13 October 2013 - 07:36.


#2273 Diablobb81

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 07:37

Mark's 3 stop was only screwed by a brilliant middle stint from Seb. Otherwise it would have worked



#2274 docronzo

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 07:38

If Mark hadn't lost so much time behind Grosjean, we would have catched Vettel.

#2275 Brother Fox

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 07:38

Webber has always been harder on the tyres

#2276 paipa

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 07:43

To make it sure, before people are going mad...

 

The team radio message was to Perez who didn't follow blue flag, not to Webber.

Sky commentators sure love dramas which aren't there. :o

Someone will have to link the video. I might be wrong but I remember the phrase "keep him away from me" which certainly can't refer to a backmarker in front of him.



#2277 fatd

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 07:50

Someone will have to link the video. I might be wrong but I remember the phrase "keep him away from me" which certainly can't refer to a backmarker in front of him.

 

I don't have the video, but this is from @F1PitRadio2:

"Tell him to get out of the way.. get out of the way, I'm losing time.. thank you thanks for that"



#2278 sosidge

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 07:50

This is why Vettel is a 3x world champion in the Red Bull and Webber is not even a 1x runner-up.

 

Webber drove a competent race in the fastest car but needed backmarkers to get past a slower car on much older tyres. Meanwhile Seb mastered the tactics, held back at the right time, went quick at the right time, made the pass he needed immediately, and won comfortably.


Edited by sosidge, 13 October 2013 - 07:52.


#2279 plumtree

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 07:54

Webber has always been harder on the tyres

I guess that's why he went for lower downforce setup in the first place. He knew two stop would be way too marginal for him and opted for three-stop. Options seemed to lose a lot of grip after the first few fast laps though.
 
Mark looks quite happy on the podium.  :up:
 
 
 

Someone will have to link the video. I might be wrong but I remember the phrase "keep him away from me" which certainly can't refer to a backmarker in front of him.

Vettel : Tell him to keep out of the way even if he has fresher tyres
Rocky : Perez getting blues
Vettel : Charlie get him out the way that is not fair,  I'm losing time. thank you.

 

 

Brundle corrected himself before the podium ceremony, it was to Perez.


Edited by plumtree, 13 October 2013 - 07:55.


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#2280 krea

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 07:56

Webber was like >10s away... why should Vettel talk about him?

 

It's some crazy bullshit.



#2281 tsk19xx

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 07:59

Mark Webber is so useless any strategy will be the inferior strategy for him. He is just not fast enough, when he was pitted early in free air. And Seb was fast enough when he has to go long on his 2nd stint. If you switch around the strategy the end result will still be the same.



#2282 anti

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 08:05

History graph Japanese GP 2013 (ссылка)

  • Sebastian Vettel
  • Mark Webber
  • Romain Grosjean
Comparison by race leader



#2283 Kelateboy

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 08:06

Webber was like >10s away... why should Vettel talk about him?

 

It's some crazy bullshit.

 

Vettel's remarks were not directed at Webber, but towards the backmarkers in particular Perez for ignoring the blue flags.

 

edit - I did not see plumtree had already replied to this one. 


Edited by Kelateboy, 13 October 2013 - 08:07.


#2284 krea

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 08:16

Vettel's remarks were not directed at Webber, but towards the backmarkers in particular Perez for ignoring the blue flags.

 

edit - I did not see plumtree had already replied to this one. 

 

Yes, that's my point.

 

Only a fanboy would try to turn it into some team order message.



#2285 Group B

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 08:17

Mark Webber is so useless any strategy will be the inferior strategy for him. He is just not fast enough, when he was pitted early in free air. And Seb was fast enough when he has to go long on his 2nd stint. If you switch around the strategy the end result will still be the same.

 

Ostensibly true. He may not be 'useless', but ultimately he's just not quite quick enough to (most of the time) beat SV over a race distance.



#2286 mnmracer

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 08:17

Yes, that's my point.

 

Only a fanboy would try to turn it into some team order message.

unfortunately there's an abundance of those here.



#2287 bourbon

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 08:18

Where did you get that picture mnmracer???  LOL!!!  :rotfl:

 

The cat...  I spit out my coffee!

 

 

 

Webber has always been harder on the tyres

 

He has, but his stints were massive today - he was doing purple sectors all over the place.  I think if he had gotten by Grosjean quickly, he'd of given us a good fight to the end.


Edited by bourbon, 13 October 2013 - 08:24.


#2288 Higli

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 08:20

The key moment was on lap 47, when Mark failed to complete the first attempt on Grosjean. Had he made the pass, he would have been six seconds behind with six laps to go. That could have been a close one and I would have loved to watch it.



#2289 Thomas99

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 08:37

Also the start. Had Grosjean never passed Webber then the race would have been interesting.

 

Still, theres a reason 6 of the top 7 ran 2 stops, it was the superior strategy. Faster and less risk of traffic. 


Edited by Thomas99, 13 October 2013 - 08:40.


#2290 mnmracer

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 08:43

Also the start. Had Grosjean never passed Webber then the race would have been interesting.

 

Still, theres a reason 6 of the top 7 ran 2 stops, it was the superior strategy. Faster and less risk of traffic. 

Are you saying it was not an interesting race? :confused:

It's quite clear Webber simply couldn't make a 2-stop race work. He is the only one responsible for needing a 3-stop.



#2291 Thomas99

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 08:48

Are you saying it was not an interesting race? :confused:

It's quite clear Webber simply couldn't make a 2-stop race work. He is the only one responsible for needing a 3-stop.

It wasnt really no. The faster cars just strategied their way around Grosjean. Webber having to stop more meant he would have had to be 20 seconds faster in 2 stints. Unlikely.



#2292 camberley

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 08:52

Mark just said that he was on a 2 stop until he was told to come in on lap 25 for the 2nd stop. He implied his team deliberately screwed him which now seems obvious especially now that Mark confirms he was driving as per a 2 stop 

#2293 mnmracer

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 08:53

Mark just said that he was on a 2 stop until he was told to come in on lap 25 for the 2nd stop. He implied his team deliberately screwed him which now seems obvious especially now that Mark confirms he was driving as per a 2 stop 

Did Mark Webber imply it, or are you implying it?



#2294 Diablobb81

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 08:55

Driving for a 2 stop isn't the same as being able to do a 2 stop.

 

And if the team decided to split strategies to cover RG in any situation it was obvious that Mark was the candidate for a 3 stop.

 

Maybe he couldn't have pass Vettel at the end but he is the only one to blame for not passing RG earlier



#2295 mnmracer

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 08:59

 

 

“The whole race was dictated by the first stint,” Horner explained. “Mark went through the tyre a little bit quicker than Sebastian and therefore didn’t have the range.”


#2296 SpeedRacer`

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 09:01

Did Mark Webber imply it, or are you implying it?

 

Mark Webber - http://www.autosport...t.php/id/110600



#2297 camberley

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 09:06

Did Mark Webber imply it, or are you implying it?


He clearly implied it. He was on Sky. Said he was driving to a two stop right until he was called in on lap 25 but he had no choice but to trust the team

Ted also did check on his 2nd stint lap times and said his lap times were great and stopping seemed premature.

Brundle said now it is clear that when they told Seb he was racing Gro, it meant that Mark was out of the way.


Webber got screwed for the nth time

#2298 Kelateboy

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 09:07

Got the order on the 1st lap wrong, but got the winners VET, WEB, GRO in the right order.

 

IMO, the change to a 3-stop strategy was made necessary by Webber's inability to preserve his tyres in the 1st stint. His options lasted for 12 laps only. RBR were gambling that Lotus/Grosjean would be covering all Webber's moves. It did not work because :-

 

1) Webber was too far behind Grosjean on Lap 12. A 2s gap made the undercut quite difficult. Grosjean/Lotus covered Webber's move but Webber was unable to execute a succesful undercut due to the gap.

2) Webber could not open a big enough gap in the 3rd stint when he was going for another undercut. Just this time, Grosjean did not cover him thinking that Vettel on a 2-stopper would be his main rival. 

3) Webber took some time overtaking Grosjean. He lost a lot of time, but I think at this stage, it was a lost cause because he did not and could not open a big enough gap in his 3rd stint.



#2299 Kelateboy

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 09:10

Mark just said that he was on a 2 stop until he was told to come in on lap 25 for the 2nd stop. He implied his team deliberately screwed him which now seems obvious especially now that Mark confirms he was driving as per a 2 stop 

 

Then screw Webber's engineer for being inept at his job. Look at Rocky and how he told Sebastian to save some of his tyres at the end because he might come under pressure from Webber.



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#2300 camberley

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 09:16

Then screw Webber's engineer for being inept at his job. Look at Rocky and how he told Sebastian to save some of his tyres at the end because he might come under pressure from Webber.

you're implying Webber's engineer call the shots  -- ha ha

 

Marko and Horner do - wake up