38 replies to this topic

[Jim Thurman]

Don Radbruch's question about oval Midget car racing in Europe prompted a query of my own.

In one book, I noticed an item mentioning Stock Car auto races held on a dirt oval in the Olympic Stadium in Paris sometime in the late 1940's or early 1950's. Does anyone have any more info on this...or of any other oval track racing held in Europe outside of the U.K., Belgium and Holland?


Jim Thurman

[Rob29]

They still race stock cars in Paris.Indoors in the Palasis Omnisport at Bercy...

[Michael Müller]

However, we should consider that "stock cars" in Europe do not have the same meaning than in the US. Here "stock cars" are scrap cars driven (I refuse using the word "raced") to the bitter end, meaning one has to eliminate as much others as possible by crashing.

[Darren Galpin]

Michael - not strictly true in all cases. For example, Formula 1 Stock Cars launched the career of Dereck Warwick, and they are not of the type you describe. These cars are more like the cars raced on dirt ovals in the States - wings on the roof, four open wheels and a roll cage containing a big engine. These race at various venues around the UK, but admittedly far more common are the stock car races described by Michael, which are sometimes classed simply as Demolition Derby's.

[FLB]

Originally posted by Darren Galpin
Michael - not strictly true in all cases. For example, Formula 1 Stock Cars launched the career of Dereck Warwick, and they are not of the type you describe.

Derek Daly also raced those cars.

They are what the Americans would call "Jalopies".

[Michael Müller]

The British very often consider their isles as "extra-european territory", so let's keep my expression "Europe" in that way ...

[Kpy]

Originally posted by Michael Müller
The British very often consider their isles as "extra-european territory", so let's keep my expression "Europe" in that way ...

"The British" do no such thing. I am British, live and work in France as do many other British people. We are thoroughly integrated with our French and other European colleagues and neighbours. We are and always have been European geographically and we have been part of the EU for nearly 30 years - would have been longer but for de Gaulle.
If you want to think in terms of national stereotypes fine, but kindly refain from telling the rest of the world how we consider ourselves and I'll refrain from telling everyone how the Dutch think. OK??

[LB]

and I'm European before I'm british...hehe

anyway the classification of Dirt Oval racing in the UK/Europe is more or less as follows.

Demolition Derbys - not racing but smash em ups. last moving wins.

Banger Racing - similar to the above except they actually race but removal of competitors is encouraged

Stock Car racing - Dirt track oval racing for saloons and even specially tuned machines. But nothing like the sprint cars in America and Australia/NZ. . These events do not encourage contact (though it is inevitable) and are the closest to proper circuit racing. The only Tarmac /Dirt crossover that I know of is the Legends cars that were part of the Eurocar package.

I'll have a nosey about and see if there is a BRSCC website for more info.

[Michael Müller]

Thought that the smiley was sufficient to express that this is no serious statement of course. However, if my attempt of humour came over in a wrong way, my apologies.

[fines]

I can definitely state that Stock Car racing in Germany (and, btw, Luxembourg) IS THE SAME as Demolition Derby/Banger Racing in English speaking countries.

[Ray Bell]

I'm getting worried about all of this... in the early sixties when we used to go to Westmead (near Parramatta, a suburb of Sydney) to watch the various races, and among them were the stock cars, these things were the likes of 1934 Fords and 1937 Chevs with lots of waterpipe welded around them...

What do Europeans do it in? 2CVs? Volkswagens?

These days it would surely be Golfs and the like, so where is the protection?

Today's 'foldupeasy' cars are hardly a good start, unless they have internal cages like ETCC contenders... surely?

[Darren Galpin]

All cars are used, but they do have to have a tubular structure welded inside to provide a safety cage. The wierdest car I saw was on BBC's Top Gear program a couple of years ago, when a hearse was used in stock car racing, and it was quite successful. Only it crashed in the final (I think), and another car went up its rear. The back of the car folded up around the roll cage, but the driver was OK.

If you want to see fun stock car racing, you want to see them race Robin Reliant's. For those of you who don't know, these are three wheeled cars (one at the front), front engined, fibre-glass bodied. They are a tad unstable though.....

Talking of Robin Reliants, someone did take one drag racing once. They got a Rover V8 engine, and placed it in the back. As it was such a light car, it used to win many scratch races, to the extent that most people wouldn't race it any more due to the embarrassment of being beaten.

[Marcor]

This kind of competition also existed in Belgium. According to JP Delsaux (100 years of Belgian motorsport) there was an event in 1953 (on 14 June to be precise) called "Grand Prix International d'Auto-Rodéo". It really looks like Demolition derby or stuff like that !!!

[FLB]

Demo-derby "stock car" races are still held at Paris-Bercy. We've had coverage from Eurosport on RDS in Canada.

Ray, the cars range from VW Golf's, to 2CV's, Fiat Panda's, Citroën Visa's, etc. However, they are reinforced with a rollcage as rollovers are fairly common. They have no glass (windshield, side windows, lights, etc.). The drivers come from all over Europe.

[Marcor]

Do you consider it as a sport ? This kind of (TV) shows are like catch VS boxing !! I'm really bored when I saw it on "motorsport" TV shows. It's a waste of time to look at this ! Unluckily, especially on Eurosports, beside programs about F3 or simply real racing cars, there are craps like demo-derby, tractor pulling, auto-cross, ...

[FLB]

Originally posted by Marcor
Do you consider it as a sport ? This kind of (TV) shows are like catch VS boxing !! I'm really bored when I saw it on "motorsport" TV shows. It's a waste of time to look at this ! Unluckily, especially on Eurosports, beside programs about F3 or simply real racing cars, there are craps like demo-derby, tractor pulling, auto-cross, ...

I don't consider it a form of sport, but it's undeniably a form of "motorized entertainment". They ARE called Stock Cars by the Eurosport commentators after all.

To each his own, I guess.

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by FLB


I don't consider it a form of sport, but it's undeniably a form of "motorized entertainment". They ARE called Stock Cars by the Eurosport commentators after all.

To each his own, I guess.

I agree with that, but what I was looking for is oval racing instead of "Demoltion Derby".

And yes, Fines, I have heard of oval racing in Germany. There were some American servicemen that carved out their own little dirt oval and ran modified VWs on it.

The only info I have refers to "Stock Cars" at Olympic Stadium in Paris in 1950.

Guess that's something that will have to be researched!


Jim Thurman

[FLB]

Jim, you might also be interested to know that Sprint Car demos have been held (don't know if they still are) at Paris Bercy. Some French drivers took part in the mid-1990's, notably the 1981 Monte Carlo Rally winner, Jean Ragnotti.

[David McKinney]

I haven't said anything before now, Jim, as I presumed there would be others with far more knowledge than I have.
Some time in the 1950s (I would have though mid 50s, rather than 1950), Autosport ran something about stock-car races in France, I think organised by Serge Pozzoli. I seem to remember a picture of pre-war US cars - reminiscent of pre-war Daytona Beach. Antoine Raffaëlli's Bugatti book also has picture of French stock-car races - and photographs of pre-war Bugatti coupés racing without wings and with railway-iron at front, in the best US tradition!

[Ray Bell]

Whenever this thread pops up I just can't help but think of that movie title.... The Cars That Ate Paris!

[fines]

Just to confirm, I asked an expert. "Auto Cross" is dirt-track racing, while "Stock Cars" is Demolition Derby. They used to let the last moving win, but recently those cars have become that strong that they had to impose a performance rule as to get a winner at all!

I browsed through "1950 - The Year, The Races" by Jean-Paul Delsaux and couldn't find a mention of a stock car race in Paris.

[David McKinney]

In the UK at least there's a vast difference between autocross and dirt-track racing, but it would need someone less hard-surface-circuit-oriented than me to explain

[Ray Bell]

I must put in a bit of an explanation here, for it seems to me that some are at a loss to understand the descriptions.

Stock Cars, a name applied to the NASCAR monsters and also to pre-war 'series production' racing in Australia, in the speedway context, is a race with cars that are all barred up and encouraged to damage others as a part of the spectacle and a part of the strategy. Usually over a set number of laps.

demolition derbies are simply crash 'em out affairs where you can go anywhere and drive into anything. Rules obviously differ, but the one with which I was very briefly associated had a rule that only first and reverse gears be used. This was a case of the last moving car won, the event was last thing on the program and the wrecks were towed away the next morning. Reverse was the usual gear of choice, eliminating the problem of damaging your radiator (but endangering the SU fuel pump on the bracket in the boot of otherwise unstoppable Austin A99s!).

[Kpy]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Whenever this thread pops up I just can't help but think of that movie title.... The Cars That Ate Paris!

PARIS France??

No I know it's not - but please tell us all!!

[Ray Bell]

I know nothing about it... just saw the name about.

[Darren]

The Cars That Ate Paris is a splendidly dark and strange Australian film directed by Peter Weir. The cast is a roll-call of Australian film talent - John Meillon (the VB ad voice-over man), Bruce Spence, Max Gillies, Max Phipps...

[HistoricMustang]

Originally posted by Jim Thurman
Don Radbruch's question about oval Midget car racing in Europe prompted a query of my own.

In one book, I noticed an item mentioning Stock Car auto races held on a dirt oval in the Olympic Stadium in Paris sometime in the late 1940's or early 1950's. Does anyone have any more info on this...or of any other oval track racing held in Europe outside of the U.K., Belgium and Holland?


Jim Thurman

Ran across this former thread several nights ago and it bothers me. Does anyone perhaps have information on the event or even the stadium? The web has come a long way in the six years since original question put forward by Jim. So perhaps new information has been discovered?

Henry

[RS2000]

Seeing the thread for the first time bothers me too. I don't see any references to the highly professional UK short oval "Hotrod" category - nearest comparison, Nascar top category, but smaller cars and on quarter mile ovals. Then Autograss (that long ago effectively killed off most Autocross) with about 10 classes from standard Minis to multiple bike-engined open wheelers. Both with far less body contact than the BTCC. Both, along with F1 and F2 Stock Cars, showing UK motorsport can be run by responsible people without the condescending attitude of the unelected MSA.

[962C]

Originally posted by Jim Thurman
Don Radbruch's question about oval Midget car racing in Europe prompted a query of my own.

In one book, I noticed an item mentioning Stock Car auto races held on a dirt oval in the Olympic Stadium in Paris sometime in the late 1940's or early 1950's. Does anyone have any more info on this...or of any other oval track racing held in Europe outside of the U.K., Belgium and Holland?


Jim Thurman

I vaguely remember an article in French magazine "Le Fanauto" (probably by Serge Pozzoli) many many years ago (the magazine itself disappeared about 15 years ago) about a place called Buffalo where that kind of races took place around that time frame.
I think "Buffalo" was near the Porte de Champerret in North-West Paris but my recollection of this article is very dim. I might still have the magazine but I won't have access to my collection before a couple of weeks.

One things I remember is that the article insisted on how great cars, including a Hispano-Suiza, were wrecked in those events (there was little or no interest in preserving them at the time)

[Graham Clayton]

Here is a picture of Jean Gueydon and his Type 44 Bugatti stock car at Huveaune stadium in Marseilles. The Huveane stadium was the original home ground for the Olympic Marseille football team from 1904 to 1937.

http://www.dadsstyle...car-racing.html

[Ray Bell]

You shouldn't do this, Graham...

Fascinating, but gruesome at the same time!

[Lee Nicolle]

Here is a picture of Jean Gueydon and his Type 44 Bugatti stock car at Huveaune stadium in Marseilles. The Huveane stadium was the original home ground for the Olympic Marseille football team from 1904 to 1937.

http://www.dadsstyle...car-racing.html

For you Europeans the pic on Grahams header is an Aussie Stockcar 50s and early 60s style. Sometimes known as 'Heavys' as in Heavy Stock car and apart from a few Pommy cars of the 50s nothing European would live with them now or in the past.
I have seen those winged things raced in the UK which are about as developed as a late 60s stockcar or a 70s Stock Rod in Oz yet alone what the Americans raced

[arttidesco]

Wow ! Some interesting camber angles on the wheels !

[Jesper O. Hansen]

Here in Denmark dirt track racing on oval circuits used to be quite common, usually run anti-clock wise. This was from after WW2 to about the early 1990s, when the last oval was shut down. The cars used were most often saloon cars that also was running on "proper" circuits - registration plates, head and tail lights taped over or removed. Even single seater racers like Formula Juniors were tried, but proved quite unsuitable for the conditions.
Tracks like Fangel, Løvel, Ørnedalen, Hobro and Nisseringen were short ovals at about 600 meters (2/5 mile) that was also used by 2- and 3-wheel speedway riders. Korskro, at a full kilometer (3/5 mile), was something exstraordinare and hosted an annual Grand Race that attracted foreign drivers. Horse racing tracks were also used.

By the 1970s this type of racing was dominated by rear engined NSUs, Sunbeam Imps and Fiat-Abarths and when the tarmac circuits had difficulty in attracting the audience and competitors, the dirt tracks flourished. So much so that by 1976 Porsche 911s started to hound the smaller cars. By the end of the decade Ring Djursland held a number of Rallycross events and most of the either group 1 saloons or combined group 5 and Special Saloons were also seen at the dirt tracks. The horse racing tracks was gone by this point and gradually right hand corners were added to most of the above circuits. Korskro disappeared from the dirt track schedule from about 1980, leaving Fangel as the only oval track during most of the 1980s to it's closure in 1994.

Norway and maybe Sweden has or has had something called Bilspeedway - ecentially meaning car speedway, run like a 2-wheel speedway event, but with cars. From what I have seen, it's been a selection of rallycross, hillclimb and rally cars used on what looks like speedway and horse racing circuits.

Jesper

[Graham Clayton]

I vaguely remember an article in French magazine "Le Fanauto" (probably by Serge Pozzoli) many many years ago (the magazine itself disappeared about 15 years ago) about a place called Buffalo where that kind of races took place around that time frame.
I think "Buffalo" was near the Porte de Champerret in North-West Paris but my recollection of this article is very dim. I might still have the magazine but I won't have access to my collection before a couple of weeks.

One things I remember is that the article insisted on how great cars, including a Hispano-Suiza, were wrecked in those events (there was little or no interest in preserving them at the time)

962C,

Here are a couple of clips of stock cars at the Buffalo Stadium at Paris from the British Pathe website:

http://www.britishpa...rd.php?id=49617

http://www.britishpa...rd.php?id=63989

[Jim Thurman]

Thanks to all who posted here for reviving this thread and providing much more info

So, oval racing has taken place in U.S., Canada, Mexico, Virgin Islands, Guam, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa. Rhodesia, U.K., Ireland, France, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Russia...

[peter kropotk]

Thanks to all who posted here for reviving this thread and providing much more info

So, oval racing has taken place in U.S., Canada, Mexico, Virgin Islands, Guam, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa. Rhodesia, U.K., Ireland, France, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Russia...

Some French stock cars (though not many) followed the British specials; this one was builr by Guy Curval: http://www.oldstox.c...ages/curval.jpg

USA style Sprint cars are now being raced in limited numbers in the UK: http://www.uksprintcars.co.uk/

The typical British "stock car" used on short ovals today is illustrated by this 2008 photograph.
http://www.oldstox.c.....pril 2008.jpg
Because they race on tarmac/concrete AND on loose red shale grit, the top drivers use a different chassis and engine for each surface.

"Midget" cars are also popular on UK ovals: http://www.gpmidgets.co.uk/

An economy spec. formula similar in appearance to Legends is the Rebels: http://www.oldstox.c...athan leads.jpg

[Tomas Karlsson]

The French type of "Stock Car" racing appeared in Sweden in early 1955 and it became instantly very popular. Races were arranged all over the country, racing on speedway motorcycle oval tracks (the first were on ice!). It was demolition derbys and a lot of the old American cars from the Thirties were destroyed. The races were not sanctioned by the national Automobile racing association. Stock-car became extremely popular and drew big crowds. The biggest stars made some money, but the promotors were the big winners. The circus continued for a couple of years, but in the late Fifties the interest disappeared and Stock-Car racing stopped completely.
In 1957 a group of Swedish drivers and cars travelled down to Italy. Someone had invited them in a try to export the show. But it didn't become a hit down there and the Swedes returned home after only a couple of shows.

[peter kropotk]

Don Radbruch's question about oval Midget car racing in Europe prompted a query of my own.

In one book, I noticed an item mentioning Stock Car auto races held on a dirt oval in the Olympic Stadium in Paris sometime in the late 1940's or early 1950's. Does anyone have any more info on this...or of any other oval track racing held in Europe outside of the U.K., Belgium and Holland?


Jim Thurman

In 2007 a French publisher, E-T-A-I, brought out 'STOCK CARS EN FRANCE 1953-1970', written by veteran French stock car pilot Guy Curval and Philippe Berthonnet.

It is a large format high-quality printing, costs a bit, but has fabulous photographs and facts.
The publisher's website is www.etai.fr and their e-mail is passionautomobile@etai.fr