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Original unbuilt John Tojeiro frame


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#1 Untame

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 11:37

Our shop (www.coachsmithing.com) has been commissioned to finish this original John Tojeiro frame. The wire buck is reminiscent of the Ferrari California Spyder. Our goal is to have it completed by the end of the year.

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#2 RTH

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 11:56

Keep us posted , that is a big job, what is the history?Looking at your website you do some very nice work.

#3 Untame

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 01:47

Keep us posted , that is a big job, what is the history?Looking at your website you do some very nice work.


Thank you. I don't know much about the history of this frame. I can't find any serial number stamped on it, but I wouldn't expect that on a race-built chassis. Our client has owned other 50s-60s sports racers including other Tojeiros.

It is a big job, but I think it looks a bit simpler than the Delahayes and Bugattis.

#4 RTH

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:30

Thank you. I don't know much about the history of this frame. I can't find any serial number stamped on it, but I wouldn't expect that on a race-built chassis. Our client has owned other 50s-60s sports racers including other Tojeiros.

It is a big job, but I think it looks a bit simpler than the Delahayes and Bugattis.


http://en.wikipedia....ki/John_Tojeiro

His works were only about 20 miles from where I am sitting now

#5 Doug Nye

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 10:43

I assume this frame has been in the US for many years? The Barkway works was tiny. Set against that background it is incredible just how many uncompleted Tojeiro chassis frames were left unsold "hanging in the rafters" there, and decades later new owners extracted signed letters from JT confirming "period authenticity".

Call me sceptical? :cool:

DCN

#6 Stephen W

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 11:21

I assume this frame has been in the US for many years? The Barkway works was tiny. Set against that background it is incredible just how many uncompleted Tojeiro chassis frames were left unsold "hanging in the rafters" there, and decades later new owners extracted signed letters from JT confirming "period authenticity".

Call me sceptical? :cool:

DCN


DCN sceptical? Heaven forfend that such an accusation could be levelled at the noble scribe.

PS I was told never assume as it makes an ass out of you and me.  ;)

#7 D-Type

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 11:43

The wire buck appears to be far more recent than the frame so it probably can't be trusted to offer any clues. if anything it resembles the first Tojeiro-Jaguar but It's difficult to gauge its size so it could equally be a smaller car such as a Tojeiro-Climax
If this is a genuine Tojeiro frame, how did it come to be in the USA? Probably it was the frame of a car which has since been dismantled - Tojeiro-Bristol, Tojeiro-MG, or Tojeiro-Climax come to mind as all the Tojeiro-Jaguars have been accounted for. It is possible - but highly unlikely - that someone in the USA would buy a frame or a running chassis from Tojeiro in Britain and import it into the USA to build up into a car. I don't have Graham Gauld's Tojeiro history, so I can't say if there are any clues in there.
The rear axle mounts aren't properly fixed. Accident damage?

#8 Nev

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 13:35

I do like the "ethereal" quality of the chassis/wireframe - it is almost an artwork in its own right!

You may consider it sacrilegious but perhaps it is better just left in this form? After all, without any serial numbers on the frame I would guess there is no way of establishing its provenance and it would end up as "just another replica". Or do you have some other evidence that would back up your claim of "original John Tojeiro frame"?

I guess your client will want to have it built up into a car anyway. Judging by your previous work it seems your client is in very good hands. Please keep us informed as the project continues.

#9 Peter Morley

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 19:02

The wire buck appears to be far more recent than the frame so it probably can't be trusted to offer any clues. if anything it resembles the first Tojeiro-Jaguar but It's difficult to gauge its size so it could equally be a smaller car such as a Tojeiro-Climax
If this is a genuine Tojeiro frame, how did it come to be in the USA? Probably it was the frame of a car which has since been dismantled - Tojeiro-Bristol, Tojeiro-MG, or Tojeiro-Climax come to mind as all the Tojeiro-Jaguars have been accounted for. It is possible - but highly unlikely - that someone in the USA would buy a frame or a running chassis from Tojeiro in Britain and import it into the USA to build up into a car. I don't have Graham Gauld's Tojeiro history, so I can't say if there are any clues in there.
The rear axle mounts aren't properly fixed. Accident damage?


The American car is a later frame - probably Tojeiro Climax type.
The early Tojeiro chassis (e.g. MG, Bristol) were ladder frames.
Here are some photos of my bare unused original Tojeiro MG frame (which was ordered as a spare by the owner of a Tojeiro MG).

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#10 D-Type

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 20:37

A couple of crumbs from Bill Boddy's Sports Car Pocketbook. He says that the 1100 Tojeiro-Climax spaceframe weighed 81lb and the Tojeiro-Jaguar frame 96lb - but that is obviously without the 'Superlegerra' framework. He also says that later cars had De Dion rear axles 'sprung on coil springs, wishbones being used at the front.


Edited to sort out the weird formatting and huge blank spaces that had somehow crept in

Edited by D-Type, 16 March 2013 - 00:31.


#11 Rudernst

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 22:26

I assume this frame has been in the US for many years? The Barkway works was tiny. Set against that background it is incredible just how many uncompleted Tojeiro chassis frames were left unsold "hanging in the rafters" there, and decades later new owners extracted signed letters from JT confirming "period authenticity".

Call me sceptical? :cool:

DCN


incredible,
that is precisely what I have been thinking all along
unless there were a convincing paper trail, I would be sceptical

and I have seen threads like used to establish provenance

and then again, I might be wrong to be soo harsh on this one.....

Rudolf

Edited by Rudernst, 15 March 2013 - 22:32.


#12 Untame

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 23:06

To be honest, I'm just trusting our client that it is an original unfinished frame. He has restored a few notable classic racers, so I have no reason to doubt him. He will be spending enough money on this project to make it unlikely that it is a replica. That's all I know right now.

#13 Nev

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 06:49

He will be spending enough money on this project to make it unlikely that it is a replica.


Trust me - just because an owner is willing to invest a lot of money in a replica, doesn't make it any more than a replica!

Ask me how I know ...;)

However, I do hope the doubters will be proved wrong and I look forward to reading about the build and the finished car.

#14 Graham Gauld

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 07:12



I am afraid I am not going to be able to contribute much as I do not recognise the chassis bits but the body buck is interesting. There appears to be a small vertical wing at the back similar to the new body built for the Ex-Ecurie Ecosse 1959 Tojeiro-Jaguar owned today by Dick Skipworth. I mention the new body because the original bodywork of that car had a much bigger rear blade of a wing. Below is a photo of the small rear wing on the Skipworth car.


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#15 Untame

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:11

I am afraid I am not going to be able to contribute much as I do not recognise the chassis bits but the body buck is interesting. There appears to be a small vertical wing at the back similar to the new body built for the Ex-Ecurie Ecosse 1959 Tojeiro-Jaguar owned today by Dick Skipworth. I mention the new body because the original bodywork of that car had a much bigger rear blade of a wing. Below is a photo of the small rear wing on the Skipworth car.


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Thanks for chiming in. I'm about half way through your book right now.

Supposedly, the owner of the frame had known John Tojeiro, and John had told him (in writing?) that he wanted to see it finished off as an "American" car. I'm not exactly sure what that means (other than an American engine), but the drawings we have for the body are labeled "Tojeiro California," and it obviously has a Ferrari California shape to the wire buck. I've been told that this car has to be built (for HMSA purposes) as a 1959 "point in time."

#16 Graham Gauld

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 12:41

Thanks for chiming in. I'm about half way through your book right now.

Supposedly, the owner of the frame had known John Tojeiro, and John had told him (in writing?) that he wanted to see it finished off as an "American" car. I'm not exactly sure what that means (other than an American engine), but the drawings we have for the body are labeled "Tojeiro California," and it obviously has a Ferrari California shape to the wire buck. I've been told that this car has to be built (for HMSA purposes) as a 1959 "point in time."



As you will no doubt have read in the book John Tojeiro had a bad habit of not placing a chassis number when someone ordered solely the chassis into which that person would add his own engine etc.He did put chassis numbers on cars that he produced as entire cars. Looking at the state of the chassis I would say that it was certainly in period.

#17 elansprint72

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 21:52

I do like the "ethereal" quality of the chassis/wireframe - it is almost an artwork in its own right! ....


Most of the "white stuff" on the structure is frost- it appears to have been out in the cold, in more than one sense!

#18 Untame

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:09

As you will no doubt have read in the book John Tojeiro had a bad habit of not placing a chassis number when someone ordered solely the chassis into which that person would add his own engine etc.He did put chassis numbers on cars that he produced as entire cars. Looking at the state of the chassis I would say that it was certainly in period.


There are no numbers stamped on the front cross-member. The fact that this chassis had never been completed is punctuated by the obvious lack of body attachment tabs anywhere on the frame or evidence of them having been removed.

Would John have also fabricated the De Deion tube and supplied it with a chassis? The axle we have has never been completed (final welds and drillings).

#19 Allan Lupton

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:34

Would John have also fabricated the De Deion tube and supplied it with a chassis? The axle we have has never been completed (final welds and drillings).

Can't answer that directly but in the mid '60s I had a de Dion axle that came from Toj, which memory says looked very similar apart from that rearward-facing prong in the middle.


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#20 Untame

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 16:10

Yesterday we mocked up the engine for fitment. We also completed fabrication of a Watt's link and other rear suspension links. I don't think a larger engine could possibly fit in this car with enough room for a driver's foot box.

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