659 replies to this topic

[yoyogetfunky]

http://www.guardian....-bull-melbourne

Well said Christian.

[Absulute]

Yeah, it is

[crespo]

...right

[Sin]

it is not and thats not a secret, he did well in a Torro Rosso... before coming to Red Bull .... people underestimate Seb

[mattferg]

Winning in F1 is all about the package - car, driver, designer, team strategies, pit stops. If one of these components is rotten a team won't win, as we've seen with McLaren last year.

Yes, Adrian Newey is very good at what he does, and yes, the car is very good, but so is Vettel and people need to remember that. No one's won a championship in not the best car (equal maybe) in a long, long time.

Edited by D.M.N., 14 March 2013 - 19:05.
Remove "Inb4 Kingshark etc etc come in here arguing about winning championships in a lesser car etc."

[Frankbullitt]

Hahaha, he made a funny.

[eronrules]

an f1 car is like a horse, there are good horse and bad horse, but even a good horse needs a good jockey. vettel is a very good jockey. those who says it's all car, they're just deluding themselves. a car has to be good to give the driver the chance to win victory, luck doesn't always work.

Edited by D.M.N., 14 March 2013 - 19:05.
Remove "(cough ... ferrari nuts ... cough)" - baiting

[Zava]

"I doubt the two of them would have said what they have said when they drove for the same team [McLaren]. They both seem to have found a mutual admiration with the common denominator being that Sebastian has done all the winning over the past three years."

[RoutariEnjinu]

I think he's a great driver in a great car.

I don't think he's the best of the current crop by a long way though, but not far enough away so that the car does all the work.

[Grundle]

When you take into account all the tricks Red Bull have had on their cars,
it's logical to assume the car is key. He didn't win 3 in a row cos everyone else is ****.

[mattferg]

When you take into account all the tricks Red Bull have had on their cars,
it's logical to assume the car is key. He didn't win 3 in a row cos everyone else is ****.

Remind me how Red Bull qualified 1-2 in every race and finished the same in the WDC?

Would you say Alonso won his two in a row because of the car? That's the logic you're implying.

Of course you could just argue Webber is a rubbish driver - but then why would Ferrari try and sign him to replace Massa?

#logic

Edited by mattferg, 14 March 2013 - 14:17.

[crespo]

It's not all car, but he did have the best package, outright.

Ferrari had great teamwork, great reliability and a great driver, but a very difficult car to drive, which also lacked pace.

McLaren had a very fast car and a great driver, but lacked in reliability and teamwork, to an extent.

Red Bull had the best pitwall (IMO), best teamwork (IMO), a driver the equal of Ferrari and Macca, second fastest car after the McLaren (sometimes faster), and pretty good reliability (not great, but not terrible).

Just look at the 6 races before Brazil... 4 wins in a row (3 from front row [2 poles]), dead last to third in AD, and cucumbered out of first place in Austin. Then top it off with the luck of the driving Gods in Brazil (I still can't believe the car didn't break).

That is a dominant streak that only the best package can give you. He is part of the package, but when every other component of said package is as good as they were, his job becomes a lot easier.

Edited by crespo, 14 March 2013 - 14:16.

[Dalton007]

When you take into account all the tricks Red Bull have had on their cars,
it's logical to assume the car is key. He didn't win 3 in a row cos everyone else is ****.

Uh, but look where Webber was!

[JeanClaude]

Winning in F1 is all about the package - car, driver, designer, team strategies, pit stops. If one of these components is rotten a team won't win, as we've seen with McLaren last year.

Exactly

Just Horner counterbalancing the it's-all-the-car sounds that came from Ferrari and McLaren

JC

[mgs315]

If this is true he should put his money where his mouth is and get rid of Newey.

[2ms]

Mark Webber is a top driver.

If the RB8 was decisively superior to the McL and Ferrari, then he would have done a lot better than 6th in the WDC last season.

If the RB9 is competitive this season, then Vettel is the most likely driver to win again. No one else in a top-3 car has the same overall combination of speed, consistency, and calm under pressure.

Edited by 2ms, 14 March 2013 - 14:21.

[Group B]

Winning in F1 is all about the package - car, driver, designer, team strategies, pit stops. If one of these components is rotten a team won't win, as we've seen with McLaren last year.

Yes, Adrian Newey is very good at what he does, and yes, the car is very good, but so is Vettel and people need to remember that. No one's won a championship in not the best car (equal maybe) in a long, long time.

Yep. Vettel and RB are able to maintain 9/10 performances week in week out, while the likes of Lewis and Mac put in the odd 10 but then follow it with a 7.

[One]

I do not believe a single thing about t=what Horner say. Vettel must prove his skill by moving to another team if he were to asser that he is indeed the best on the grid.

Till the day, Fernando Alonso and Kimi Raikkonen is way better driver than what Vettel is. Lewis hamilton needless to say is close or better than Vettel.

Edited by D.M.N., 14 March 2013 - 19:18.
Remove "You must not make the game of Vettel too easy. Fanboy train does not bring the toughness in front." - last bit = bait

[Group B]

If this is true he should put his money where his mouth is and get rid of Newey.

Why should he? Just because he thinks he has the best driver it hardly follows that he should weaken his team in order to prove it.

[Ragingjamaican]

"I doubt the two of them would have said what they have said when they drove for the same team [McLaren]. They both seem to have found a mutual admiration with the common denominator being that Sebastian has done all the winning over the past three years."

That is well said and I agree...I've not seen them put anyone else in 'their' league despite being at least two candidates that I can think of, Vettel and Raikkonen. A lot of the comments and compliments they make to each other is usually a big dig at Vettel and towards the rest of the champions.

People tend to say Vettel needs to move away from Red Bull and prove himself somewhere else, while at the same time they regarded Hamilton as proven despite him staying at McLaren for all his years until now.

Edited by Ragingjamaican, 14 March 2013 - 14:34.

[mattferg]

That is well said and I agree...I've not seen them put anyone else in 'their' league despite being at last two candidates that I can think of, Vettel and Raikkonen. A lot of the comments and compliments they make to each other is usually a big dig at Vettel and towards the rest of the champions.

People tend to say Vettel needs to move away from Red Bull and prove himself somewhere else, while at the same time they regarded Hamilton as proven despite him staying at McLaren for all his years until now.

It's bizarre tbh - Vettel's been at three teams and performed very well in all three - points in his first race, win in his first full season, runner up in his first season in a top team.

[Vesuvius]

It's incredible some still don't give enough credit for Vettel, he has nothing to prove, he has won in different teams, different conditions, without a best car, he can overtake, is fast,is consistent etc. He still is not perfect but all the time he is improving and in few years he will be the best all around driver, he already is close.

[SpaMaster]

http://www.guardian....-bull-melbourne

Well said Christian.

Horner makes some very good points.
- Two of the last three championships were very close and Vettel was fighting against the odds going to the later part of the championships.
- McLaren was the best car in 2012, so Vettel and the team did well grabbing their opportunities unlike the former who squandered them.

[mlsnoopy]

When you can drive through a corner with the DRS open it is all about the car.

[LaoTze]

How many Races have RedBull finished at 1-2? anyone care to dig that info up ?

[Music Lover]

It's not all car, but he did have the best package, outright.

Ferrari had great teamwork, great reliability and a great driver, but a very difficult car to drive, which also lacked pace.

McLaren had a very fast car and a great driver, but lacked in reliability and teamwork, to an extent.

Red Bull had the best pitwall (IMO), best teamwork (IMO), a driver the equal of Ferrari and Macca, second fastest car after the McLaren (sometimes faster), and pretty good reliability (not great, but not terrible).

Just look at the 6 races before Brazil... 4 wins in a row (3 from front row [2 poles]), dead last to third in AD, and cucumbered out of first place in Austin. Then top it off with the luck of the driving Gods in Brazil (I still can't believe the car didn't break).

That is a dominant streak that only the best package can give you. He is part of the package, but when every other component of said package is as good as they were, his job becomes a lot easier.

Good Summary!

Seb is a great driver no doubt, but not the best.

[Zava]

How many Races have RedBull finished at 1-2? anyone care to dig that info up ?

4 out of 17 in 2009,
4 out of 19 in 2010,
3 out of 19 in 2011,
1 out of 20 in 2012.

[LaoTze]

4 out of 17 in 2009,
4 out of 19 in 2010,
3 out of 19 in 2011,
1 out of 20 in 2012.

thanks

[mattferg]

Good Summary!

Seb is a great driver no doubt, but not the best.

I've seen no evidence that he's any better or worse than any other top driver on the grid and nor have you.

[Seanspeed]

People that claim that Vettel isn't special are being just as ignorant and naive as the people who think its all Vettel, in my opinion.

Truth is most likely somewhere in the middle. What Horner says here means nothing to me and I'm not sure how its even discussion-worthy. Its just another attempt to bring up 'How good is Vettel really?', which has been discussed to death the past couple years. So long as Red Bull continue to put out fantastic cars, its going to be hard for a skeptic to change their mind. People who seem to demand that people accept Vettel as absolute top-tier will have to deal with that and likewise, people that dont think Vettel is all that good will have to deal with the ever-increasing stats of Vettel's career. I fear another year of the same will just harden the opposite ends of the spectrum on this.

Edited by D.M.N., 14 March 2013 - 19:19.
Remove "Meanwhile, the rest of us in the middle have to deal with all the pointless bickering and fanboyism that it involves....yay. :wave:" - bait

[Vesuvius]

Good Summary!

Seb is a great driver no doubt, but not the best.

It's a matter of a opinion really, there is no proofs he isn't the best and there is no proofs he is...but if he continues winning and makes less mistakes every year, he will be come the best eventually in peoples minds.

Edited by Vesuvius, 14 March 2013 - 15:03.

[yoyogetfunky]

it is not and thats not a secret, he did well in a Torro Rosso... before coming to Red Bull .... people underestimate Seb

Agreed, he was great throughout 2008 in that Torro Rosso (was Berger still team boss then?)

Exactly

Just Horner counterbalancing the it's-all-the-car sounds that came from Ferrari and McLaren

JC

He couldv also said with Mclaren/Ferrari its all about superior engines (tbh he did say so in the past)

[Music Lover]

Mark Webber is a top driver.

If the RB8 was decisively superior to the McL and Ferrari, then he would have done a lot better than 6th in the WDC last season.

If the RB9 is competitive this season, then Vettel is the most likely driver to win again. No one else in a top-3 car has the same overall combination of speed, consistency, and calm under pressure.

First, Mark isn't a top driver. that's quite obvious during his years in F1
Secondly, I rate both Alonso and Kimi higher if you talk about speed, consistency, and calm under pressure. Both drove brilliantly last year considering their not so perfect package ( cars/team compared with RB).

[Music Lover]

People tend to say Vettel needs to move away from Red Bull and prove himself somewhere else, while at the same time they regarded Hamilton as proven despite him staying at McLaren for all his years until now.

Well, you seems to forget that he had Alonso as team mate, a double champ.
Lewis did well despite being very unexperienced back then.

[Vesuvius]

First, Mark isn't a top driver. that's quite obvious during his years in F1
Secondly, I rate both Alonso and Kimi higher if you talk about speed, consistency, and calm under pressure. Both drove brilliantly last year considering their not so perfect package ( cars/team compared with RB).

How is it obvious? He has only lost to Vettel...and still won twice at monaco (drivers circuit) so it isn't as obvious as you say.

[yoyogetfunky]

People that claim that Vettel isn't special are being just as ignorant and naive as the people who think its all Vettel, in my opinion.

Truth is most likely somewhere in the middle. What Horner says here means nothing to me and I'm not sure how its even discussion-worthy. Its just another attempt to bring up 'How good is Vettel really?', which has been discussed to death the past couple years. So long as Red Bull continue to put out fantastic cars, its going to be hard for a skeptic to change their mind. People who seem to demand that people accept Vettel as absolute top-tier will have to deal with that and likewise, people that dont think Vettel is all that good will have to deal with the ever-increasing stats of Vettel's career. I fear another year of the same will just harden the opposite ends of the spectrum on this.

In this case Horner just counters the noises from Alonso and Hamilton. I think its good that Horner points out some facts.

Edited by D.M.N., 14 March 2013 - 19:21.
Remove part of deleted quote and reference to other posters

[Group B]

First, Mark isn't a top driver. that's quite obvious during his years in F1

It's 'quite obvious' to people who wish to denegrate Vettel by association.

[Vesuvius]

Well, you seems to forget that he had Alonso as team mate, a double champ.
Lewis did well despite being very unexperienced back then.

The problem in this is that Alonso never have had top driver as his team mate until Hamilton became his team mate and matched him on a equal best cars with Ferrari, for Lewis it was great but for Alonso not so great, yet he is said to be the best overall, like he is for now but that's just opinion not based on any facts.

[kosmos]

Car is not key to Vettel success.... stupid claim.
Vettel success is only because the car... stupid claim.

The truth is in the middle

[Group B]

Car is not key to Vettel success.... stupid claim.
Vettel success is only because the car... stupid claim.

The truth is in the middle

Exactly. It's not rocket science.

[1Devil1]

I do not believe a single thing about t=what Horner say. Vettel must prove his skill by moving to another team if he were to asser that he is indeed the best on the grid.

Till the day, Fernando Alonso and Kimi Raikkonen is way better driver than what Vettel is. Lewis hamilton needless to say is close or better than Vettel.

You must not make the game of Vettel too easy. Fanboy train does not bring the toughness in front.

Raikkonen won his championship in a great car and because of the brain farts of McLaren, Hamilton needed till the last race to clinch the title against Massa in a great car. Only Alonso showed in different teams he is probably on pair with Vettel or above that. The other drivers didn't prove anything in your measuring, so why does Vettel need to prove anything if others failed to do so?

[Music Lover]

I've seen no evidence that he's any better or worse than any other top driver on the grid and nor have you.

IMHO,
1/ he still makes more mistakes than Alonso and kimi.
2/ Alonso and Lewis have met each other. = both clearly top drivers. Vettel still haven't as Mark isn't a good benchmark

It's less easy to do miracles with a bad car. I have seem miracles many times from Alonso, Kimi and Lewis in a bad car.
Not so often with Vettel.
It's possible he would have impressed me more in a less good car, who knows...

imho he is among the four top drivers in F1 today but not the best.

[mattferg]

Raikkonen won his championship in a great car and because of the brain farts of McLaren, Hamilton needed till the last race to clinch the title against Massa in a great car. Only Alonso showed in different teams he is probably on pair with Vettel or above that. The other drivers didn't prove anything in your measuring, so why does Vettel need to prove anything if others failed to do so?

I completely agree. People say Vettel needs to win in "not the best car" to prove he's a good driver, and it makes me think - what do they even mean?

Do they mean win a race in not the best car? If so, Vettel's clearly done that - Monza 2008 in the Toro Rosso.

Or do they mean a championship? Because as far as I can see, it goes like this:

2005 Renault - Best car
2006 Renault - Best car
2007 Ferrari - Equal best car with McLaren
2008 McLaren - Best car let down by Heikki
2009 Brawn - Best car
2010 Red Bull - Best car
2011 Red Bull - Best car
2012 Red Bull - Best car season long

So who on the grid has even won a championship in 'not the best car'?!

IMHO,
1/ he still makes more mistakes than Alonso and kimi.
2/ Alonso and Lewis have met each other. = both clearly top drivers. Vettel still haven't as Mark isn't a good benchmark

It's less easy to do miracles with a bad car. I have seem miracles many times from Alonso, Kimi and Lewis in a bad car.
Not so often with Vettel.
It's possible he would have impressed me more in a less good car, who knows...

imho he is among the four top drivers in F1 today but not the best.

Spa 2012. Enough said.

Also Alonso and Hamilton may have met each other, but they both lost the championship in the equal best car. Hamilton being a rookie can be excused but Alonso having a meltdown for not being treated specially can't. So what does that say about him?

Edited by mattferg, 14 March 2013 - 15:27.

[mlsnoopy]

It also has a lot to do with McLaren incompetence.

[mlsnoopy]

I completely agree. People say Vettel needs to win in "not the best car" to prove he's a good driver, and it makes me think - what do they even mean?

Do they mean win a race in not the best car? If so, Vettel's clearly done that - Monza 2008 in the Toro Rosso.

Or do they mean a championship? Because as far as I can see, it goes like this:

2005 Renault - Best car
2006 Renault - Best car
2007 Ferrari - Equal best car with McLaren
2008 McLaren - Best car let down by Heikki
2009 Brawn - Best car
2010 Red Bull - Best car
2011 Red Bull - Best car
2012 Red Bull - Best car season long

So who on the grid has even won a championship in 'not the best car'?!


Spa 2012. Enough said.

Or not the best car

[Vesuvius]

IMHO,
1/ he still makes more mistakes than Alonso and kimi.
2/ Alonso and Lewis have met each other. = both clearly top drivers. Vettel still haven't as Mark isn't a good benchmark

It's less easy to do miracles with a bad car. I have seem miracles many times from Alonso, Kimi and Lewis in a bad car.
Not so often with Vettel.
It's possible he would have impressed me more in a less good car, who knows...

imho he is among the four top drivers in F1 today but not the best.

1. No he doesn't
2. That desn't proof a thing as we don't kow how good Webber is againts them or Vettel against them.

Vettel did miracles with Toro Rosso 2008 and that's enough to be said.

He is one of the best drivers indeed but nobody can really say who is the best, not you,me or anyone.

Edited by Vesuvius, 14 March 2013 - 15:27.

[Music Lover]

Firstly, I'd remind you you're talking about a driver who almost beat Alonso to the championship in 2010, who beat a man who beat Schumacher 3 times.

I think it's better to base the evaluation of the total F1 career.

[mattferg]

Or not the best car

Except that it was.

“As usual in F1, the quickest or best car will win the championship in the end."
Fernando Alonso

I think it's better to base the evaluation of the total F1 career.

Yes, I completely agree. As such if you use that standard Vettel is more impressive than Alonso or Hamilton.

Edited by D.M.N., 14 March 2013 - 19:23.
Remove " Reconsidering your post now? :p" - bait

[Music Lover]

It's 'quite obvious' to people who wish to denegrate Vettel by association.

No, I rate Vettel high.
But I disagree with the "car not key to Seb mastery".

Just because I consider the car/team very important, doesn't make Vettel a bad driver.

Edited by D.M.N., 14 March 2013 - 19:24.
Remove pointless rolleyes, only serves to inflame

[Vesuvius]

No, I rate Vettel high.
But I disagree with the "car not key to Seb mastery".

Just because I consider the car/team very important, doesn't make Vettel a bad driver.

There is no 'key' there is no single thing that is needed for championship titles, it's the combination of car,team and driver work, all of those matter and the ones who do the best job...will win.