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Vergne/Vettel Yellows (Australia '13 Qualifying 1)


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#1 chumma

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 08:40

Both set best sectors/laps(?) under yellow from gutierrez crash, any word from stewards?

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#2 TomNokoe

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 08:45

No way they'll get penalized.

#3 Vesuvius

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 08:48

If they lifted it's ok, no matter if they did their best sectors or not.

#4 chumma

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 08:49

If they lifted it's ok, no matter if they did their best sectors or not.

That most certainly is not ok.

Ps thankyou mods, on an iphone with poor reception

Edited by chumma, 16 March 2013 - 08:49.


#5 Fudce

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 08:50

They need to investigate it at least. If they lifted, fine, but to ignore it is only going to create conspiracies.

#6 TomNokoe

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 08:52

They need to investigate it at least. If they lifted, fine, but to ignore it is only going to create conspiracies.

Especially after letting webber off when he broke the rules in free practice because it was a "genuine mistake from Red Bull". Unlike every other rule break which teams mean to do......

#7 Crossmax

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 08:55

Both set best sectors/laps(?) under yellow from gutierrez crash, any word from stewards?

Vettel went purple in sector one and two, but the yellows for Gutierrez were in sector 3, and he duly aborted that lap. Or am I missing something?

#8 chumma

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 08:58

Vettel went purple in sector one and two, but the yellows for Gutierrez were in sector 3, and he duly aborted that lap. Or am I missing something?

I thought he and vergne set their beat laps while esteban was in the fence?

#9 Zava

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 09:00

from the other topic, as it seems there are two:

sectors are put together from smaller sections, it is possible to go purple in a sector and still lift in the smaller "danger zone" sections.
btw Gutierrez was in s3, Vettel aborted his lap where he had purple s1-s2, so I don't think there's a problem. or Gutierrez was already there on the previous lap?



#10 Fudce

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 09:00

Vettel went purple in sector one and two, but the yellows for Gutierrez were in sector 3, and he duly aborted that lap. Or am I missing something?

That was on the following lap.

I was following the session on TV and on the F1 Timing App. When Gutierrez crashed, the next two cars down the road were Vergne and Vettel. In replays of the crash, you can see Vergne appearing in the background.

At the end of that lap, they both set a green sector, but given they were behind Gutierrez, they would have passed through the yellow flag. I went back and double-checked this.


The green sectors came after this point, on their his lap. (not purple, just personal best S3's)


As for the investigation, I am in no way implying that the two guys did anything wrong. I just think that any instance like this needs to automatically be investigated.

Edited by Fudce, 16 March 2013 - 09:04.


#11 artista

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 09:17

That was on the following lap.

I was following the session on TV and on the F1 Timing App. When Gutierrez crashed, the next two cars down the road were Vergne and Vettel. In replays of the crash, you can see Vergne appearing in the background.

At the end of that lap, they both set a green sector, but given they were behind Gutierrez, they would have passed through the yellow flag. I went back and double-checked this.


The green sectors came after this point, on their his lap. (not purple, just personal best S3's)


As for the investigation, I am in no way implying that the two guys did anything wrong. I just think that any instance like this needs to automatically be investigated.

As far as I know, green sectors during yellows are automatically investigated, but quite often there is no notification of it, because the reason for the 'green' is so obvious that there is no need to start an official investigation, call team and driver, ask for telemetries and so on.
For example, if the drivers that went through the accident place right before it happened were half a second faster in that part of the track than the first guys that went through there after the accident happened, stewards will most probably not call the drivers even if the had a green sector there.
I have to say, that I don't know if this is the case or not for this particular case, though.

Edited by artista, 16 March 2013 - 09:18.


#12 Fudce

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 09:23

As far as I know, green sectors during yellows are automatically investigated, but quite often there is no notification of it, because the reason for the 'green' is so obvious that there is no need to start an official investigation, call team and driver, ask for telemetries and so on.
For example, if the drivers that went through the accident place right before it happened were half a second faster in that part of the track than the first guys that went through there after the accident happened, stewards will most probably not call the drivers even if the had a green sector there.
I have to say, that I don't know if this is the case or not for this particular case, though.

That was why I double-checked it. There were green sectors from other drivers after the crash, but these two were the only ones who did who were behind Gutierrez before the crash.

#13 superdelphinus

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 09:27

That most certainly is not ok.

Ps thankyou mods, on an iphone with poor reception


Are you sure? I thought they had to demonstrate that they had lifted, which usually goes hand in hand with a slower sector. What would happen if, for example, it had dried up half way through that session and a car had only set a time in wet conditions? They'd have to slow down to an absolute crawl to set a slower sector time if the yellow flag was out on a dry run. Which would probably be even more dangerous

#14 bourbon

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 09:48

That was why I double-checked it. There were green sectors from other drivers after the crash, but these two were the only ones who did who were behind Gutierrez before the crash.


And for whatever reason, it makes perfectly good sense to you that Vettel, pushing his his Red Bull for all it was worth on his first flying lap on inters, would only go 7th?



#15 Jackmancer

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 09:52

Guiterez accident was when lot of cars where on quick inters. If their lap would have been 2 seconds quicker, they lost 0,5 second it can still be 1,5 seconds faster while lifted? Doh.

#16 mnmracer

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 10:03

They only need to lift in the marshal sector (the few dozen meters where there is a yellow flag). It's not like they need to drive slowly for something that happened 1 mile back. Also remember the track was drying, so even when lifting, they would improve their time.

#17 chumma

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 10:12

Guiterez accident was when lot of cars where on quick inters. If their lap would have been 2 seconds quicker, they lost 0,5 second it can still be 1,5 seconds faster while lifted? Doh.

They would need their best laps taken from them, where would this put them?

#18 mnmracer

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 10:38

They would need their best laps taken from them, where would this put them?

No they wouldn't.
Where do you get this idea that a flag on the other end of the track should keep influencing their time?

#19 chumma

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 10:42

No they wouldn't.
Where do you get this idea that a flag on the other end of the track should keep influencing their time?

They set green in the last bloody sector, the yellow flag was in the last sector, you can't set go green in the sector of yellows and improve your laptime, that lap time will be deleted, how don't you know this? Suzuka 2009?

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#20 artista

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 10:47

They set green in the last bloody sector, the yellow flag was in the last sector, you can't set go green in the sector of yellows and improve your laptime, that lap time will be deleted, how don't you know this? Suzuka 2009?

I'm going to quote mnmracer: where did you get that idea from? That's not what the rules say. Nowhere in the rules it says you can't set a green sector with yellows. And nowhere it says you can't improve your lap time with yellows.
The reason drivers where penalised in Suzuka 2009 was not that they improved their times, it was that they didn't lift (or didn't lift enough) in the yellow flag zone.

#21 Zava

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 10:50

They set green in the last bloody sector, the yellow flag was in the last sector, you can't set go green in the sector of yellows and improve your laptime, that lap time will be deleted, how don't you know this? Suzuka 2009?

for the last time: the 3 main sectors are put together from multiple smaller sections, for example 10 section each. you only have to lift in those sections where the yellow flag happened, not the whole sector! this way you can post a best sector time by lifting in 1-2 sections and being faster in the remaining 8-9.
and it's not even like you can't do a personal best in that sector/section. if you can prove by telemetry that you lifted off, you can keep your time with the personal best sector/section, otherwise for example if you only had a yellow flag on your sole timed lap, you'd have to lift off to the extent of matching your out-lap, and that would be 1, unnecessary, 2, dangerous to the ones following you.

#22 chumma

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 10:50

I'm going to quote mnmracer: where did you get that idea from? That's not what the rules say. Nowhere in the rules it says you can't set a green sector with yellows. And nowhere it says you can't improve your lap time with yellows.
The reason drivers where penalised in Suzuka 2009 was not that they improved their times, it was that they didn't lift (or didn't lift enough) in the yellow flag zone.

If you set a personal best sector time, in the same sector as the yellow flag, how does that in turn, show you lifted? It doesn't, it shows you went quicker than you ever had before. That's the whole point of a yellow flag, to slow down. Thats all im saying, and their green sector 3's resulted in their best laps, therefore they're laps would be whiped, its happened in the past.

#23 chumma

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 10:51

for the last time: the 3 main sectors are put together from multiple smaller sections, for example 10 section each. you only have to lift in those sections where the yellow flag happened, not the whole sector! this way you can post a best sector time by lifting in 1-2 sections and being faster in the remaining 8-9.
and it's not even like you can't do a personal best in that sector/section. if you can prove by telemetry that you lifted off, you can keep your time with the personal best sector/section, otherwise for example if you only had a yellow flag on your sole timed lap, you'd have to lift off to the extent of matching your out-lap, and that would be 1, unnecessary, 2, dangerous to the ones following you.

Why does Martin Brundle always make a big deal about drivers not setting PB's in sectors where yellow flags are waved then?

#24 Buttoneer

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 10:52

I'm going to quote mnmracer: where did you get that idea from? That's not what the rules say. Nowhere in the rules it says you can't set a green sector with yellows. And nowhere it says you can't improve your lap time with yellows.
The reason drivers where penalised in Suzuka 2009 was not that they improved their times, it was that they didn't lift (or didn't lift enough) in the yellow flag zone.

:up:

On a track like we had today, no conclusions can be drawn from the times whether absolute or relative. If the investigation takes place, the stewards must look at telemetry and see what sort of throttle or brake movement took place at that point on the circuit.

#25 Buttoneer

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 10:52

Why does Martin Brundle always make a big deal about drivers not setting PB's in sectors where yellow flags are waved then?

Did he do that today?

#26 chumma

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 10:55

Did he do that today?

Im not sure I was at the track I don't get to hear anything from Martin, things were a bit crazy in that moment anyway so I wouldn't be surprised if it went unnoticed?

#27 StefK

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 10:57

I can't remember which race or driver it was, but there was an example from the not too distant past where somewhere was allowed their green sectors to stand because of the changeable weather conditions, just as we had today. I think it might have been BUT perhaps someone can help me out.

Slowing in a sector is not important, that is just the granularity that is available to the viewers commentators etc. What matters to race control and the stewards/marshalls is that you slowed during the flags - these are not equivalent to the sectors but can approximate them.

#28 chumma

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 10:59

I can't remember which race or driver it was, but there was an example from the not too distant past where somewhere was allowed their green sectors to stand because of the changeable weather conditions, just as we had today. I think it might have been BUT perhaps someone can help me out.

Slowing in a sector is not important, that is just the granularity that is available to the viewers commentators etc. What matters to race control and the stewards/marshalls is that you slowed during the flags - these are not equivalent to the sectors but can approximate them.

Ahh ok understood, I was under the impression that if you made your fastest sector, then you couldn't have slowed down so much, I guess this goes all the way back to Mika's pole in Monaco 99 when he raised his arm out of the cockpit to show he slowed down..yet still took pole. Which was controversial to say the least. No complaints from me though as a Mika fan :)

#29 exogenesis1203

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 11:00

If you set a personal best sector time, in the same sector as the yellow flag, how does that in turn, show you lifted? It doesn't, it shows you went quicker than you ever had before. That's the whole point of a yellow flag, to slow down. Thats all im saying, and their green sector 3's resulted in their best laps, therefore they're laps would be whiped, its happened in the past.

okay, so green=no lifting ? That's excellent logic there.

Let's assume this hypothetical scenario

Lap 1, driver a spin out in sector 3, sector time is 60s.
Lap 2, yellow in sector 3, driver lifted off their pedal, sector time is 50s.

So the driver still didn't slow down huh?

You do know that FIA has a lot more telemetry data on their hands right? They can see if driver actually lift off the pedal or not from actual data from the car, not silly sector times.

But oh well, who cares about logic when you can just grab the nearby pitchhfork and torch for a nice witchhunt.

#30 Topsu

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 11:02

Is chumma trolling? You have to be quite stubborn to not grasp the concept of slowing only in the yellow flag zone, not the whole sector.

#31 chumma

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 11:03

okay, so green=no lifting ? That's excellent logic there.

Let's assume this hypothetical scenario

Lap 1, driver a spin out in sector 3, sector time is 60s.
Lap 2, yellow in sector 3, driver lifted off their pedal, sector time is 50s.

So the driver still didn't slow down huh?

You do know that FIA has a lot more telemetry data on their hands right? They can see if driver actually lift off the pedal or not from actual data from the car, not silly sector times.

But oh well, who cares about logic when you can just grab the nearby pitchhfork and torch for a nice witchhunt.

Jesus, is someone having a bad day or? No witch hunt, I wasn't demanding penalties, I was enquiring if there was any mention of it from the stewards? no need to get your knickers in a knot, and your example is poor anyway but the matter is cleared up so move on.

#32 chumma

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 11:04

Trolling..? I asked if there was any mention, calm down guys.

#33 StefK

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 11:06

Ahh ok understood, I was under the impression that if you made your fastest sector, then you couldn't have slowed down so much, I guess this goes all the way back to Mika's pole in Monaco 99 when he raised his arm out of the cockpit to show he slowed down..yet still took pole. Which was controversial to say the least. No complaints from me though as a Mika fan :)



After this comment I thought Chumma was perfectly reasonable actually.

#34 choyothe

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 11:06

That rascal Vettel, already creating controversy and taking advantage of his position as the golden boy of F1!

#35 Topsu

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 11:07

Trolling..? I asked if there was any mention, calm down guys.

The scenario was just explained to you so many times that it seemed odd you didn't get it. But I guess we are now on the same page. Vettel could've easily passed Gutierrez with half throttle and still improved his sector time with inters and cleaner line.

#36 bourbon

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 11:12

If you set a personal best sector time, in the same sector as the yellow flag, how does that in turn, show you lifted? It doesn't, it shows you went quicker than you ever had before. That's the whole point of a yellow flag, to slow down. Thats all im saying, and their green sector 3's resulted in their best laps, therefore they're laps would be whiped, its happened in the past.


If you are on wets you can do these values in the three sectors: 3.8, 2.9, 4.5 = 11.2
If you are on inters you can do These three values in the three sectors: 3.2, 2.7, 4.0 = 9.9

Now if you lift while on the intermediate tyres in Sector 3, and you go 4.4, you are going to be going VERY slow in that sector considering you are on inters, and CLEARLY you will have lifted to get such a poor sector time, but your sector time will be GREEN because it is FASTER than your last timed flying lap on WETS.

So the driver did not "improve" his sector time because he was not on a comparable tyre.

So you can see why it would make no sense to try to say a driver improved his time in this circumstance, merely because their effort resulted in a green sector time.

Edited by bourbon, 16 March 2013 - 11:16.


#37 olliek88

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 11:21

So long as the driver can show he has lifted off when within the vicinity of incident its not a problem if he does a PB for that sector, especially in changeable conditions like todays.

#38 SpaMaster

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 11:26

That most certainly is not ok.

Ps thankyou mods, on an iphone with poor reception

Of course it is ok. How many time do we need to see this in F1 to believe it? It happens all the time. You just need to be slow in that particular part of the track and you don't necessarily have to show overall slower sector time there. Slowing down for that particular part can be proved by telemetry.

Edited by SpaMaster, 16 March 2013 - 11:26.


#39 ExFlagMan

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 11:29

Looks like the on-board warning lights on the cars may not have been working at the time, as according to Autosport web site the FIA have announced that owing to 'telemetry' problems there will be no on-board information to the drivers or automatic disabling of the DRS systems for the meeting..



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#40 chumma

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 11:29

Do people not read the thread? it has been cleared up!

#41 Buttoneer

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 11:47

Indeed. Move on please, nothing to see here.

#42 choyothe

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 11:49

Do people not read the thread? it has been cleared up!


I guess they were just a bit confused by it taking 8 tries to say the same thing for you to understand/accept that.

#43 SpaMaster

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 12:17

I guess they were just a bit confused by it taking 8 tries to say the same thing for you to understand/accept that.

And the countless instances it has happened in F1 recently to make the explanation so obvious!

#44 Kelateboy

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 12:29

They would need their best laps taken from them, where would this put them?

Both Vergne and Vettel would still qualify into Q2 because both of their times on wets were considerably faster than Pastor Maldonado's 1min 47.614.

#45 plumtree

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 20:07

I know this has been fully cleared up but would like to provide the evidence.

In order of setting the lap time
ALO 35.5 26.6 41.7
GRO 35.5 26.7 41.9
WEB 35.0 26.9 42.4
PER 35.4 27.0 41.8
DIR 36.0 27.0 42.4
MAS 35.6 27.0 41.9
HUK 36.4 26.8 42.6
(Yellow)
ROS 35.1 26.4 41.7 - presumably he was already approaching the finish line
VER 35.1 27.1 42.5
VET 35.2 26.4 42.9 - previous personal best S3 time was 43.1 three-four laps ago on wet tyres, which was also hampered because Vettel was following Maldonado very closely.

Edited by plumtree, 16 March 2013 - 20:11.


#46 Fudce

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 22:20

I know this has been fully cleared up but would like to provide the evidence.



Brill thanks!

I did try to go back to look at the sector times on the App, but by that point I wasn't able to access it due to the session-split/delay.


Looking at those times, I'd say it's leaning to them having lifted. It's not as clear as I'd like, but their sectors appear to be about 0.5 slower than expected. That could be down to other factors however. Look at Webber and Vettel's S3, Webber was only 0.1s faster and he had a clear track. I'm probably gonna say that highly probable that they lifted, but I would still have liked it looked at as a matter of course. It's not as if the stewards had any on-track-action to steward over.

Oh and yes, Rosberg was just ahead of GUT when he crashed.

#47 plumtree

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 22:41

VER / VET, it can be confusing though :p, 42.9-42.4=0.5...

#48 Fudce

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 23:02

VER / VET, it can be confusing though :p, 42.9-42.4=0.5...

Good catch. I knew I got 0.5 from somewhere, glad I didn't pull it out of my coander effect.

But it does mean that Vergne was 0.5s than a Red Bull through there...

#49 plumtree

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 23:36

Good catch. I knew I got 0.5 from somewhere, glad I didn't pull it out of my coander effect.

But it does mean that Vergne was 0.5s than a Red Bull through there...

You mean 0.4 quicker than Vettel? Evidently JEV lifted relatively less in the final sector. However the track was getting drier and JEV's previous best S3 times were 42.8/42.6/42.7 in succession about ten minutes ago, probably on wets. I also doubt Webber's last sector was clean (no TV footage), that's why I brought up Seb's previous PB as a reference point. Anyway it's time to move on. :)