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McLaren race operations


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#51 Force Ten

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 09:34

Struggling to remember what you're referring to, what do you mean?

Hungary 2012, where even Brundle was on about how Button was doing a good joob destroying Vettel's strategy, only for McLaren to pit Button into traffic and give free air to Vettel. So Vettel's strategy worked again.

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#52 BillBald

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 12:28

Hungary 2012, where even Brundle was on about how Button was doing a good joob destroying Vettel's strategy, only for McLaren to pit Button into traffic and give free air to Vettel. So Vettel's strategy worked again.


Listening to Vettel's pleas on the radio for his team to 'do something', and Rocky trying to calm him down, that should have been a clue for McLaren that Button was exactly where he needed to be.

Red Bull needn't have worried, they didn't need to do anything to rescue Vettel's race, McLaren solved the problem for them.

And then in Suzuka, McLaren helped out Felipe Massa in a very similar way. They really are the most helpful guys in the pit lane...



#53 Force Ten

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 17:14

Red Bull needn't have worried, they didn't need to do anything to rescue Vettel's race, McLaren solved the problem for them.

Extra points go for pitting so that the car ends up racing Ricciardo, that is usually rather slow yet notoriously hard to overtake. I have kinda thought that they just LOVE Ricciardo, as they have pitted Button behind him on numerous occasions.

#54 SophieB

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 09:17

Martin gave an interview to the Telegraph in which he talks about, amongst other things, his thoughts on McLaren's race operations. Nothing earth-shattering, but a nice interview and pretty interesting.

Formula One is often a very chastening experience,” Whitmarsh acknowledges. “You go from hero to zero very quickly. Since 1966 we have won 186 grands prix, more than any other team over that period, and I have been around for more than 100. That’s what we expect of ourselves. If people give us aggravation, then rest assured we give ourselves worse. I don’t like turning up at a race without the genuine belief that we can win.That’s why I go motor racing. So this is not a comfortable or sustainable position. But it increases the determination to sort it out.” Describing the renewed McLaren-Honda partnership as “synonymous with success”, he declares with some emphasis: “The will at this place is going to drag us back there. We have underperformed dramatically with this car, but we have fought our way through before.”

McLaren lie sixth in the rankings behind Force India, and amid such indignity do small mercies assume great significance. Not that you might have noticed, but the team are in the midst of a run of 62 consecutive point-scoring finishes, a distinction that Whitmarsh is desperate to protect. “You think you’re going to throttle somebody if they’re responsible for ending it. That’s how we’re hardwired.”


He also reflected a bit on his own possible lack of future too which sounds like he's very much prepared for the possibility he might be replaced.

I plan as if this could all end tomorrow. Don’t have a debt, I always say. Don’t have too many mortgages. Live on a fraction of what you are earning. Then, if it goes wrong, you can still act with conviction. Whole careers can be built on not making mistakes, but I’m going to be myself, do what I think is right. My strength is to feel: ‘If they don’t like it, so be it.’ I probably wasn’t good enough to get here on talent alone, so I had to add some bravado.


Interesting. I wish I could find the interviews from a few year's back when he was under a LOT of Fleet Street pressure to go. I'm sure he sounded a lot different back then. More defiant? Although I guess you could also read him sounding much more relaxed about being replaced as his position actually being stronger. That he sounds relaxed about going 'cos he knows he isn't?




#55 BillBald

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 13:36

Martin gave an interview to the Telegraph in which he talks about, amongst other things, his thoughts on McLaren's race operations. Nothing earth-shattering, but a nice interview and pretty interesting.

He also reflected a bit on his own possible lack of future too which sounds like he's very much prepared for the possibility he might be replaced.

Interesting. I wish I could find the interviews from a few year's back when he was under a LOT of Fleet Street pressure to go. I'm sure he sounded a lot different back then. More defiant? Although I guess you could also read him sounding much more relaxed about being replaced as his position actually being stronger. That he sounds relaxed about going 'cos he knows he isn't?


What I want is to hear him saying that they are continuously reviewing their race operations to see how they can improve them. This applies to both pitstops and strategy. Maybe they need new people, maybe they just need new procedures.

What I seem to hear from MW is a subtext of "What can you do? Things sometimes don't work out" - that's very frustrating when I'm pretty sure there's a lot he can do. I'm not asking him to publicly blame anyone, or even accept blame himself, but I'd like to be more confident that big changes are being made behind the scenes.




#56 Buttoneer

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 15:10

I don't believe for one minute that they are not reviewing their performance every day, looking at what other teams are doing and learning from it. We are always looking at things in hindsight or without the same data they do so it's easy for us and there are so many possible options available at any single point in a race, and someone here will always guess the 'right' answer and make it look like McLaren have done something stupid.


#57 BillBald

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 16:39

I don't believe for one minute that they are not reviewing their performance every day, looking at what other teams are doing and learning from it. We are always looking at things in hindsight or without the same data they do so it's easy for us and there are so many possible options available at any single point in a race, and someone here will always guess the 'right' answer and make it look like McLaren have done something stupid.


If only McLaren were showing signs of improvement, I would be very happy to agree with you.

But look at their performance in Bahrain. There was an extended battle between Rosberg and the two McLarens. It was very entertaining, for many people I'm sure it made the race, but from any other point of view it was stupid.

Rosberg started from pole and finished 9th. Other teams got their drivers in front of Rosberg without wasting time and rubber fighting him. McLaren could and should have done the same.

It's not just a question of 'hindsight', there seem to be many people on this forum who recognise when McLaren are doing the wrong thing, as soon as they do it. I'm not saying it's easy to work out the best option from all the possible options, especially when you are under a lot of pressure to make the right call. Pressure can mess with peoples' minds. That's why they need the right people, but also the right procedures.

For example, suppose you are expecting your tyres to be losing performance by lap 30. From about lap 26 onwards, there should be at least one person whose job it is to look at possible undercuts. Can you gain positions and get into clean air by stopping earlier? Is there a risk that someone else will undercut you if you leave it until lap 30? Is one of the cars you are fighting with looking like they might be about to stop (tyres going off, pit crew getting ready) ?

Is there a real undercut available, or is it just going to put you into traffic? Does the opportunity depend on a very fast pitstop? (If so, best to forget it). If there's no viable undercut, get on the radio to tell the driver to go easy on the tyres, then look at the situations which could arise when pitting later.

I think that I'm quite inclined to give McLaren the benefit of the doubt. In Melbourne, they stopped Grosjean from getting the undercut on Jenson by pitting him on the same lap. At the time, I said that it might have just been dumb luck, but I was hoping that it might indicate a greater alertness. It seems like we now have the answer: it was just dumb luck.




#58 Buttoneer

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 19:10

If only McLaren were showing signs of improvement, I would be very happy to agree with you.

Well...indeed.

We know that McLaren has an enormous team of guys reading telemetry back home and providing data and analysis to the pit wall. It's quite possible that they provide too much and it's overwhelming to them. They end up with an ineffective committee decision, in effect.

I'm not at all doubting that McLaren does make bad decisions because it's clear they do, but I can't accept that they don't see the solution but perhaps have too many alternatives.

#59 Force Ten

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 21:45

Well...indeed.

We know that McLaren has an enormous team of guys reading telemetry back home and providing data and analysis to the pit wall. It's quite possible that they provide too much and it's overwhelming to them. They end up with an ineffective committee decision, in effect.

This is something that I have thought myself. Perhaps all the data team back in Woking plus the people in races amounts to vast amount of data noise, similar to what Button in his worse days is providing to his team as "feedback" allegedly? I.e. vast amounts of descriptions about every little sensation he feels in the car?

(This is digressing here... I am a producer and a recording engineer and I recently had a scenario presented to me that made me immediately think "Gee, this must be exactly as having Jenson Button driving your car that he doesn't like and giving feedback to you". I once had a double bass player in my studio. In about 10 songs he tried 15 different positions in the room to put himself in the studio with his bass and each and every position was apparently "the ONE that the bass REALLY DOES SOUND GOOD in this room". For 10 minutes. Then that particular position was s*** and the bass again apparently sounded really bad. Also each change of these positions completely f***ed up the relationship between the bass player and the other playeres in the room, the room balance, the microphone setups, everything. Also, the BASS didn't really sound all that much different at all. He just FELT better at that particular time at that particular spot any given time. So I totally understand when oversensitivity and too much data can in the end amount to f*** all)

Going back to the task at hand, it might well be that they have too much data, too many opinions and in the end most decisions are made via "computer says x is fastest over the race distance" style of deciding because it is just impossible to pick one engineers opinion's validity over all the other's. It might well be that they indeed are very critical of their decision making processes as Buttoneer said earlier but if it is they themselves that developed all these processes and are implementing, overseeing and critisising them, they are simply unable to see anything they are doing from outside looking in and the bad practises are ingrained to their core DNA.

Edited by Force Ten, 20 May 2013 - 21:55.


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#60 Buttoneer

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 22:06

(This is digressing here... I am a producer and a recording engineer and I recently had a scenario presented to me that made me immediately think "Gee, this must be exactly as having Jenson Button driving your car that he doesn't like and giving feedback to you". I once had a double bass player in my studio. In about 10 songs he tried 15 different positions in the room to put himself in the studio with his bass and each and every position was apparently "the ONE that the bass REALLY DOES SOUND GOOD in this room". For 10 minutes. Then that particular position was s*** and the bass again apparently sounded really bad. Also each change of these positions completely f***ed up the relationship between the bass player and the other playeres in the room, the room balance, the microphone setups, everything. Also, the BASS didn't really sound all that much different at all. He just FELT better at that particular time at that particular spot any given time. So I totally understand when oversensitivity and too much data can in the end amount to f*** all)

I blame the coke.

#61 BillBald

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 22:55

I certainly agree that it's possible to have too much information, especially when you have a limited time to understand it and act on it. But I think it can often be a matter of how the data is presented.

If the guys back in MTC are passing all the data they are collecting to the pitwall, it's almost certainly going to be too much, even if it's presented as friendly graphs etc rather than raw data.

What you would need in that case would be some kind of filter, some way of making the decision as to which data is useful, as well as a way of packaging it.

It's not possible for an outsider to know what the problem is, but clearly there is a problem, and it's a very serious problem. I would go so far as to say that unless they can improve their race strategy, they would need a much quicker car/driver combination than any of the other leading teams, to have a chance at either title, not just this year but in all future years.



#62 ATM_Andy

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 23:27

So race operations and strategy is really just a highly complex process driven, multifaceted, analytic problem.
There are many tools at the disposal of the team during a racing weekend.
For example the following graphic depicts the latest super computer implemented at MTC:

Analytics Engine

#63 BillBald

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 23:41

So race operations and strategy is really just a highly complex process driven, multifaceted, analytic problem.
There are many tools at the disposal of the team during a racing weekend.
For example the following graphic depicts the latest super computer implemented at MTC:

Analytics Engine


Joking aside, do you think that McLaren feel they have a problem with their strategies?



#64 Force Ten

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 05:03

So race operations and strategy is really just a highly complex process driven, multifaceted, analytic problem.
There are many tools at the disposal of the team during a racing weekend.

Ahh, a direct copy-paste from a memo by Ron Dennis! :)

Bill, whatever their problems are, whatever their view is it's of course rather unlikely that we are going to see any type of acknowledgement of them here...

#65 Buttoneer

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 09:11

So race operations and strategy is really just a highly complex process driven, multifaceted, analytic problem.
There are many tools at the disposal of the team during a racing weekend.
For example the following graphic depicts the latest super computer implemented at MTC:

Analytics Engine

Well...yes...luck clearly must play a part but with every decision there will be a huge number of cretieria to analyse and probably more than one right answer or lots of similar ones all of which are ultimately channeled to the team and driver by the guy on the pitwall (or in the car) making a call. The question is are they suffering analysis paralysis cause by too many options or conflicting potential?

#66 Force Ten

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 09:22

I blame the coke.

So is Jenson doing too much or too little?

#67 Buttoneer

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 09:32

Yes.

#68 BillBald

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 12:12

Bill, whatever their problems are, whatever their view is it's of course rather unlikely that we are going to see any type of acknowledgement of them here...


True, but if I can give them a prod...




#69 ATM_Andy

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 20:18

Well...yes...luck clearly must play a part but with every decision there will be a huge number of cretieria to analyse and probably more than one right answer or lots of similar ones all of which are ultimately channeled to the team and driver by the guy on the pitwall (or in the car) making a call. The question is are they sufferying analysis paralysis cause by too many options or conflicting potential?


No more than anyone else I don't think, of course it could always be better.

#70 Buttoneer

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 21:25

'Cretiria' was a typo and in no way a comment on McLaren race operations. Just saying.

#71 Tonka

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 22:25

McLaren are over complicating a simple exercise. Other teams have proven it's possible to decide on a pre-race strategy and stick to it. I've lost count of the number of times that McLaren have altered their strategy during the race and made a complete and utter balls of it.

It appears that parts of McLaren have grown like Topsy and require some drastic pruning. Can McLaren really need a dozen blokes following the race in Woking, to alter stratagy? It's not like they can make any changes to the car setup is it ?

Edited by Tonka, 21 May 2013 - 22:26.


#72 Buttoneer

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 22:52

They'll be looking at most of the parameters on the car too and I have no doubt at all that they will have further teams trying to second guess all their major competitors by setting up virtual pitwalls for them, measuring revs as they go past and estimating fuel usage and tyre wear. It's as much about what you know your competitor will do as it is what you hope to do.

As I say, too much data perhaps?

#73 ThadGreen

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 14:46

Concerning this too much data concept, is it being suggested that McLaren are receiving more data that the rest of the teams in terms of how the car(s) are performing on the track (electronic data) or is it being suggested that the drivers are giving too much feedback as to how they, the driver(s), perceive how the car is behaving.

Personally I don't know how an F1 team operates or functions and I could only speculate on how to cure McLaren's ills but one thing that I do know is that once again during a pit stop this year the pit crew failed to securely put four wheels on Button's car.

#74 JaredS

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 15:54

It's interesting because the idea of data and the myriad of tools is to provide decision support. Decision support. However, and this is purely my very subjective impression only, it seems to me that at McLaren they forget the "support" part and instead almost switch off their brains and almost rely entirely on the data. This seems to be in line with Ron's philosophy - take the human element out of it. Many companies are outwardly proud of their people being their competence and success. However it seems to me that Ron's goal is for McLaren to be process orientated. Why? Because logically it would seem that the human element introduces the possibility of inconsistency. Whereas robust processes should, in theory, provide consistency. Maybe Ron should invest in artificial intelligence systems. If he hasn't already done so.

Meanwhile, I much prefer teams to strategise using their human brains and utilising data merely to support their decision making, not replacing it.

#75 BillBald

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 17:50

It's interesting because the idea of data and the myriad of tools is to provide decision support. Decision support. However, and this is purely my very subjective impression only, it seems to me that at McLaren they forget the "support" part and instead almost switch off their brains and almost rely entirely on the data. This seems to be in line with Ron's philosophy - take the human element out of it. Many companies are outwardly proud of their people being their competence and success. However it seems to me that Ron's goal is for McLaren to be process orientated. Why? Because logically it would seem that the human element introduces the possibility of inconsistency. Whereas robust processes should, in theory, provide consistency. Maybe Ron should invest in artificial intelligence systems. If he hasn't already done so.

Meanwhile, I much prefer teams to strategise using their human brains and utilising data merely to support their decision making, not replacing it.


I think a lot of recent McLaren pitwall decisions have been made with the brain switched off, but is that because of over-reliance on data, or is it because the brain is overwhelmed by too much data?

I personally think that it has a lot to do with the way data is presented. The decision-maker could have a lot of graphs in front of him measuring all kinds of factors, or he could be given information in a simple, easy-to-understand sentence: "If we pit now we will come out behind X".

Of course it's not always that easy, so more than one sentence might be needed: "If we pit now we will come out behind X. If we don't pit now Y will get ahead of us." Then the decision-maker has to decide whether it would be worse to be behind X or Y, in addition to other factors he is considering.

That same information will be in the data however it's presented, but if it takes too long to see it, the data just gets in the way.

I don't know how McLaren do this kind of thing, I only know that they don't do it very well.



#76 Buttoneer

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 19:49

I think that if we have plenty of people here screaming at the screen (and occasionally posting it too) "pit NOW, pit NOWWWWW!" and it is obvious ten minutes later that pitting would have been right, then something clearly went wrong at race ops. I just don't know how much that really happens.

#77 BillBald

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 23:05

I think that if we have plenty of people here screaming at the screen (and occasionally posting it too) "pit NOW, pit NOWWWWW!" and it is obvious ten minutes later that pitting would have been right, then something clearly went wrong at race ops. I just don't know how much that really happens.


I find that I don't like what I see McLaren doing about 50% of the time!

It's reached the point where I'm almost expecting them to mess up. Last year when Jenson was running away with Spa, I was sat there wondering how they were going to manage to screw this one up.

I'm not saying I'm always right, but I'm sure I'm right more often than Macca are.

One that really sticks in my mind is Valencia last year, when they made Jenson run more than half the race on the same set of tyres. Perez made an early second stop in the Sauber, and Jenson was called in a lap later to cover him. It was clearly much too early for a second stop. After the race the McLaren guys could only talk about how 'unlucky' they'd been with the safety car.



#78 Buttoneer

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 12:34

So that means McLaren are doing the right thing for the other 50% of the time, I suppose. Or 50% of the decisions you deem are appropriate to second guess, that is. They make a lot of decisions over the weekend and it will all start from working out their test program through to the pitstops in the race and we're only able to comment on a few of them.

I'm at the risk of sounding like an apologist here and I'm not trying to do that - I agree that they have made some very 'WTF?' decisions over the years but I do think that we make such a big deal of it when it goes wrong that we lose sight of the times when it goes right or is not worth commenting on. That, plus the fact that strategy always works when you have a fast enough car, means that it must be impossible for us to reasonably guage quite how shit they are (or are not).

#79 BillBald

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 00:41

It looked like McLaren strategy was pretty good in Monaco quali, so it's a real pity that reliability let them down. Am I the only one who detects signs of increasing frustration in Jenson's comments?

Does anyone know whether Jenson's Q3 lap was on new tyres, or reusing those from Q2?

Either way, it's going to be a difficult race. It would have been better if Jenson hadn't made Q3, and could have started on new primes rather than used options. If he has to stop fairly early, he'll be stuck behind slower cars going long on primes.

Sergio is obviously better placed, but again a better result than 7th depends on other people messing up or being very unlucky.

I'm expecting the Mercs to run just fast enough to stay ahead, thereby making their tyres last as long as possible. That way the field stays bunched and limits the undercut options for the following cars. Only rain could make this an interesting race.




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#80 WitnessX

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 06:19

It looked like McLaren strategy was pretty good in Monaco quali, so it's a real pity that reliability let them down. Am I the only one who detects signs of increasing frustration in Jenson's comments?

Does anyone know whether Jenson's Q3 lap was on new tyres, or reusing those from Q2?

Either way, it's going to be a difficult race. It would have been better if Jenson hadn't made Q3, and could have started on new primes rather than used options. If he has to stop fairly early, he'll be stuck behind slower cars going long on primes.

Sergio is obviously better placed, but again a better result than 7th depends on other people messing up or being very unlucky.

I'm expecting the Mercs to run just fast enough to stay ahead, thereby making their tyres last as long as possible. That way the field stays bunched and limits the undercut options for the following cars. Only rain could make this an interesting race.

I'm not surprised, as it turns out they knew there was a problem before qualifying..

http://www.thesun.co...-the-prize.html

He revealed: “We hurt ourselves in qualifying in Monaco with a fuel pump problem.
“We knew before qualifying that it was a problem but we didn’t change it. I don’t know why."


#81 BillBald

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 18:54

I'm not surprised, as it turns out they knew there was a problem before qualifying..

http://www.thesun.co...-the-prize.html

He revealed: “We hurt ourselves in qualifying in Monaco with a fuel pump problem.
“We knew before qualifying that it was a problem but we didn’t change it. I don’t know why."


Surely there's no penalty for changing a fuel pump, so why wouldn't they?

Unless they discovered it too late, didn't have time before start of quali.



#82 Buttoneer

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 20:56

I find that I don't like what I see McLaren doing about 50% of the time!

It's reached the point where I'm almost expecting them to mess up. Last year when Jenson was running away with Spa, I was sat there wondering how they were going to manage to screw this one up.

I'm not saying I'm always right, but I'm sure I'm right more often than Macca are.

One that really sticks in my mind is Valencia last year, when they made Jenson run more than half the race on the same set of tyres. Perez made an early second stop in the Sauber, and Jenson was called in a lap later to cover him. It was clearly much too early for a second stop. After the race the McLaren guys could only talk about how 'unlucky' they'd been with the safety car.

Gary Anderson; 'They just don't seem to be alive on the pitwall'

Lots of criticism in the BBC forum for Canada 2013 and I was metaphorically screaming at the TV for them to pit Button ages before they pulled their fingers out because even I could see the times dropping. This was after the graining period.

#83 WitnessX

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 21:18

Gary Anderson; 'They just don't seem to be alive on the pitwall'

Lots of criticism in the BBC forum for Canada 2013 and I was metaphorically screaming at the TV for them to pit Button ages before they pulled their fingers out because even I could see the times dropping. This was after the graining period.

(also posted on vs. thread)

Whitmarsh just admitted on Skysports that the target lap times that they gave Button were "too slow", the tyres were more robust than they anticipated.

But then they didn't have any long-run data to base it on since his FP2 session was cut short because of a gearbox problem (wasn't that last year too?)

#84 jesee

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 21:26

Jeez, as a Mclaren fan, that was the most painful race in a long time. It is terrible the way the team seem to be going Williams way. Martin should just leave it to somebody else. Terrible race and leader with mediocre drivers.

#85 Peter Perfect

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 21:42

(also posted on vs. thread)

Whitmarsh just admitted on Skysports that the target lap times that they gave Button were "too slow", the tyres were more robust than they anticipated.

But then they didn't have any long-run data to base it on since his FP2 session was cut short because of a gearbox problem (wasn't that last year too?)

Yep, in fact I believe he had 2 gearbox changes last year in practice.

#86 Baddoer

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 22:40

Seriously, WTF

#87 EthanM

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 22:43

(also posted on vs. thread)

Whitmarsh just admitted on Skysports that the target lap times that they gave Button were "too slow", the tyres were more robust than they anticipated.

But then they didn't have any long-run data to base it on since his FP2 session was cut short because of a gearbox problem (wasn't that last year too?)


This is why I keep saying they have to ban live telemetry on the car. The micromanagement of the races has gone so far they have completely eliminated driver feel. You put 30 boffins in the pitlane and another 100 in the factory pouring every bit of data the car generates in real time puppies die. Seriously.

#88 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 22:45

I actually think that's the underlying issue with people's Pirelli complaints. If the drivers were having to figure out how to make the tires last and the speeds they could go, it'd be more like the eras people used to like.



#89 BillBald

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 23:13

(also posted on vs. thread)

Whitmarsh just admitted on Skysports that the target lap times that they gave Button were "too slow", the tyres were more robust than they anticipated.

But then they didn't have any long-run data to base it on since his FP2 session was cut short because of a gearbox problem (wasn't that last year too?)


Since Button was going to finish out of the points at the speed he was going, you would think that they could have tried telling him to speed up - nothing to lose really, even if he had to pit again.



#90 Tonka

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 07:30

This is why I keep saying they have to ban live telemetry on the car. The micromanagement of the races has gone so far they have completely eliminated driver feel. You put 30 boffins in the pitlane and another 100 in the factory pouring every bit of data the car generates in real time puppies die. Seriously.



Why should telemetry be banned because one team relies on it to the extent that McLaren do?

As Gary Anderson said yesterday "McLaren have admitted to making a mistake, but over the years they've made far too many mistakes".

20 years ago Anderson and EJ would sit on the pitwall, look at what was happening and make decisions. Having seen the mess McLaren made of yesterdays race, they couldn't do any worse by turning off the Operations Centre at the next race and make the pitwall team earn their wages. Not that they will ever go that far. McLaren has become too corporate, with too many long chains of command with probably a lot of mini-empires.





#91 Tonka

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 07:33

Since Button was going to finish out of the points at the speed he was going, you would think that they could have tried telling him to speed up - nothing to lose really, even if he had to pit again.



Why didn't JB pull his finger out and have a go? Isn't JB known for making great decisions during a race? Perhaps that was all a myth.



#92 Buttoneer

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 09:03

Tonka, I have considered your strawman and find it a bit flimsy and flammable.

Clearly this weekedn they had issues with determining the optimal speed at which they could run due to lack of dry weather running on Friday but I think the response to a situation like that needs to be less about measure and more about gut. Why not let the drivers go as fast as they can and just see how that first set of tyres lasts and move from there? If that means a swap to a three-stopper so what? They started out of the points so there was nothing to lose at all. The race is surely more important than the plan?

Perhaps McLaren are not used to these suck-it-and-see tactics because they are usually much further forwards and don't habitually need to? In those circumstances guaranteed points are more important than strategy error, but where they are now the risk of falling even further back is outweighed by the need to try something different.

#93 EthanM

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 09:38

Why should telemetry be banned because one team relies on it to the extent that McLaren do?


All teams rely on it to the same extent. Cast your mind back to Monaco, both Hamilton and Rosberg had target laptimes on their dashboards, both received instructions from the team with regards to how much they could deviate from the target laptime based on tyre wear. It's just silly having 120 engineers backseat driving F1 cars every weekend.

#94 danmills

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 09:43

Sam Michael's fault. :rotfl:

Edited by danmills, 10 June 2013 - 09:43.


#95 Tonka

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 12:07

All teams rely on it to the same extent. Cast your mind back to Monaco, both Hamilton and Rosberg had target laptimes on their dashboards, both received instructions from the team with regards to how much they could deviate from the target laptime based on tyre wear. It's just silly having 120 engineers backseat driving F1 cars every weekend.


If tyres are struggling to last the distance to point they may delaminate at any time, that's a very good reason to keep telemetry.

Anyway, this is about McLaren who, despite having a huge backroom team continually fail to make the most of them, not Mercedes who - this year at least - appear to get it right. Also, I'm not so sure the McLaren race operations is too involved in telemetry, aren't they supposed to be looking at strategy.



#96 Tonka

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 12:08

Sam Michael's fault. :rotfl:



He's only responsible for the wheels, which have stayed on this year - so far.



#97 BillBald

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 12:25

Why didn't JB pull his finger out and have a go? Isn't JB known for making great decisions during a race? Perhaps that was all a myth.


I think it would cause no end of problems if Jenson just started ignoring what the pitwall is telling him, although there have been many occasions when I have wished he would.

Jenson just doesn't have enough info to be making these decisions himself, when he's competing against drivers who are getting good instructions from their team.

The solution is for McLaren to improve its race operations.

I can't believe that, out of the army of people who McLaren have running their strategy, there wasn't one who said: "Hey guys, we need to go faster than this to score points". Are people at McLaren scared to speak up?



#98 Force Ten

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 13:28

I can't believe that, out of the army of people who McLaren have running their strategy, there wasn't one who said: "Hey guys, we need to go faster than this to score points". Are people at McLaren scared to speak up?

Don't reply to the flamebaiters.

And on the quoted part, I think that "computer sez" that all the competitors run out of tyres on lap 65 and drop massively back.

#99 ThadGreen

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 13:43

He's only responsible for the wheels, which have stayed on this year - so far.


I don't think that is entirely true, the wheels staying on part that is.

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#100 Force Ten

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 13:45

I don't think that is entirely true, the wheels staying on part that is.

Well an argument can be made that all of the wheels they've got on have stayed on.