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GP2 2013


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#51 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:30

I thought Trident was Berthon and Ceccon?

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#52 KingB

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:47

yes, but Ceccon never tested for them. And the last line is related to the whole situation :)

#53 Gene and Tonic

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 13:09

Frijns should be in GP2, definitely a future F1 talent. Hopefully he can find some backing soon

#54 F1FanAJ

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 13:22

I don't understand why Sauber doesn't gonna use Frijns as a Free practice driver, like Force India did with Bianchi last year, or Williams with Bottas...

#55 Kyo

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 13:31

I would love to see Frijns racing, but I'm not sure would be good for his career after what we saw in testing.

#56 JourneyTH

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 13:53

Which seats are left then? :confused:

And who are the contenders...


Two teams left with their lineups fully unknown.

Trident will, with 90% probability (from what I gathered) field Nat Berthon and Kevin Ceccon for the very first round, at least.

Hilmer should go with Conor Daly and Pal Varhaug again, for the first round.

#57 billm99uk

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 14:06

Two teams left with their lineups fully unknown.

Trident will, with 90% probability (from what I gathered) field Nat Berthon and Kevin Ceccon for the very first round, at least.

Hilmer should go with Conor Daly and Pal Varhaug again, for the first round.


Wasn't there a restriction on the number of driver changes in the rules? Or am I thinking of another series? :confused:

#58 KingB

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 14:22

Wasn't there a restriction on the number of driver changes in the rules? Or am I thinking of another series? :confused:

F1 you can use up to four drivers.
Dunno whether it's the same in GP2. But could possibly be.

#59 KingB

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 14:42

"I am currently empty-handed," Frijns explained to GPUpdate.net. "It is ultimately about money, which I don't have. I'm not going to start a season if I'm not sure whether I can finish it. I do not want to do half a job. When I do something, I want to do it well."

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#60 BackmarkerUK

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 15:37

F1 you can use up to four drivers.
Dunno whether it's the same in GP2. But could possibly be.


During a GP2 season each team is allowed to use up to four drivers. They may go over four only in force majeur situations.

#61 Fastcake

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 16:41

During a GP2 season each team is allowed to use up to four drivers. They may go over four only in force majeur situations.


Force majeure in GP2 sounds awfully like giving a kickback to the series...

Anyway, will be interesting to see what Calado can do this year, I've got hopes for him to eventually get an F1 seat :)

#62 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 21:32

Can I just point out that WSR tests as fast at Barcelona as GP2? Maybe conditions were really good on the WSR day and weren't so great for GP2, but given the price disparity that's a bit alarming.



#63 billm99uk

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 21:35

Can I just point out that WSR tests as fast at Barcelona as GP2? Maybe conditions were really good on the WSR day and weren't so great for GP2, but given the price disparity that's a bit alarming.


What is the price disparity these days?


#64 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 21:39

Well GP2 is about 2million, I think Euros but even if it was dollars that's still 1.5€. So as long as WSR isn't hugely above 1€ you're probably better off. You don't get to race in Malaysia/Bahrain/Singapore but you do get to drive a car with a form of DRS and KERS.

#65 Peat

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 08:32

WSR - about 750,000 EUR so i'm told.

#66 Jackman

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 10:21

Carlin WSR = 1.2m, actually.

#67 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 10:34

I can't imagine Carlin GP2 is much under 2, so for 60% of the budget you go at most 1 second slower.

#68 Jackman

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 10:43

Testing is testing, and you know better than most that certain people can be surprisingly quick in testing.

I'm not sure that GP2 is that concerned about flat speed, but rather having the F1 package, a brutal car to drive, etc. That said, like for like, GP2 shits on WSR in Monaco, which is the only time they share a weekend. Sure, tyres blah blah, but if you're looking for a comparison...

#69 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 10:47

So why did they run special tires at Monaco :p

I didn't go with just out right times, overall WSR is within 1 second of GP2, at least at Barcelona. They matched them time for time in testing this month so be on the safe side I went back to the last Renault race at Barcelona last fall, they're about a second behind at worst.

So why the hell is GP2 so expensive. And it wasn't like pre-flyaway races it was much more affordable.

#70 Jackman

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 10:54

Motor racing is not a poor man's game. It never was, sadly.

#71 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:00

No, but why pay a 50% premium to drive a team's GP2 car over their WSR car? They're similar in performance and car characteristics and your odds of promotion are no better.

GP2 has a pretty good rate of getting people to F1 but I don't think GP2 can claim that credit. It's mainly guys who could afford to do GP2 and get into F1, or drivers who had already established their name pre-GP2. So effectively it's become WSR is for drivers who have limited funding and GP2 is for drivers with blank checks. And seemingly they're charged accordingly.



#72 FerrariV12

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:12

On the subject of GP2 v WSR, one thing I noticed when watching the races last year...

Back in 2005 when GP2 was launched and for the next few years, all the cars had prominent Renault branding, even if it wasn't a Renault-run series, they were obviously giving it a lot of support, but the same engine covers were blank last year and from a quick Google it appears that was the case in 2011 too. As far as I know they are still using the same Mecachrome built engines, so have Renault just quietly pulled the plug on their support and thrown their weight behind WSR, which might explain the price difference if Renault are subsidising this series?

#73 Jackman

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:19

No, but why pay a 50% premium to drive a team's GP2 car over their WSR car? They're similar in performance and car characteristics and your odds of promotion are no better.

GP2 has a pretty good rate of getting people to F1 but I don't think GP2 can claim that credit. It's mainly guys who could afford to do GP2 and get into F1, or drivers who had already established their name pre-GP2. So effectively it's become WSR is for drivers who have limited funding and GP2 is for drivers with blank checks. And seemingly they're charged accordingly.

Come on, even a cursory glance shows that the only guys to move from WSR to F1 are Red Bull backed or Bianchi, who is ex-GP2 and has a Todt as his manager. There's no question that GP2 is the feeder series to F1, and has been for years: sure, it now seems that the only way to progress to F1 is to have a huge wedge of cash behind you, but that's not GP2's fault.

#74 noikeee

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:19

No, but why pay a 50% premium to drive a team's GP2 car over their WSR car? They're similar in performance and car characteristics and your odds of promotion are no better.


Your odds of promotion are better. You're more likely to afford a F1 seat if you can afford a GP2 seat than if you can't. :D

I agree with you WSR seems better value for money at the moment. Red Bull figured that out quite a few seasons ago already. For a driver not supported by a team, maybe there's a little extra value in the extra exposure GP2 gives you, but not in terms of the actual training you get. GP2 is turning into the second coming of F3000.

#75 JourneyTH

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:23

Trident just confirmed Berthon and Ceccon for at least Sepang. Good lineup.

#76 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:28

Come on, even a cursory glance shows that the only guys to move from WSR to F1 are Red Bull backed or Bianchi, who is ex-GP2 and has a Todt as his manager. There's no question that GP2 is the feeder series to F1, and has been for years: sure, it now seems that the only way to progress to F1 is to have a huge wedge of cash behind you, but that's not GP2's fault.


Yeah but when people like you claim that, you ignore the people who did WSR before GP2 :p

I think it's telling that Red Bull prefers WSR, though that may be more logistical to have their guys available on F1 weekends to use the simulators and such.

My argument is basically that you don't need to do GP2. What do you actually gain from it that you can't get in WSR? Does anyone think Marussia wouldn't have cashed Chilton's checks if he came out of WSR?

#77 Jackman

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:37

I'm not ignoring those people who moved up from WSR to GP2: it's just part of the motorsport ladder.

GP2's USP is F1 access: you can argue that cash trumps that, but it's not as though drivers with the cash to buy their way into F1 are flocking to WSR. Maybe it's worth asking them why, since they're the guys that are keeping the GP2 to F1 route alive: clearly they see value in GP2 over WSR.

#78 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:45

But I'm saying it's not an actual value. It's good you called it a USP because it is a selling point, not a reality. I think fundamentally you need to do a high powered single seater championship to move to F1, Indycar, a good DTM ride, factory sportscars, etc. The 'advantage' GP2 provides over WSR is in the driver's eyes, which is really the only people the teams need to convince.

What it comes down to is after a season of GP2 what did you gain that you couldn't get in WSR? I'd argue that since money talks, you'd be better off spending 2mil on a season of WSR and some F1 young driver testing. Because after spending 2mil in GP2 you're still going to have to pay for everything after that.

Although as fast as GP3 is going, it could become an alternative to WSR if it keeps its costs from getting out of control. If they can peg GP3 to about a million, you may not see the value in WSR(though not racing at Monaco is a mistake for GP3, imo). On the other hand, but for lack of pitstops(which any professional driver can figure out) GP3 may end up becoming a viable alternative to GP2 or at least eat up the back of their grid. If you don't have a lot of money and don't want to drive for what you think is a 'crappy team' why not spend your money on a front running ride in GP3?

#79 Jackman

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:56

But the purchase price of anything reflects any number of value considerations, real or imagined: is the value of petrol from Shell worth more than from Valero, for example? You may be more willing to purchase from a Shell pump for a variety of reasons, and these reasons will all be values to you as the consumer even if others disagree. This is the fundamental basis of economic competition.

Why have more than one breakfast cereal. Why have more than one motor racing series. Turns out, people like choice.

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#80 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 12:17

Have you seen the difference in gas lately? It's not THAT big :p Though if you're selling super fey organic muesli whatever you can double the price.

Yeah perception trumps everything, but you know better so stop trying to justify it. You're just feeding the myth and the mark-up.

#81 Jackman

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 12:42

I'm not feeding anything - you're the one using terms like value when you mean price, but then ignoring perception (which is based on reality, to be fair) instead of value because you think it's so unfair. Poor little racing drivers :D

#82 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 12:50

I think value is directly tied to price. It's why 2million to race in GP2 is a joke but 2million to get a ride in NASCAR, Indycar, of F1 would be a steal. And if GP2 can't demonstrate a value it's just a Sucker's Tax. Pay 50% more and get...what, an hour in the F1 pitlane every day?

I don't think it's unfair at all, I think it's just bullshit. And I can't stand when people try to peddle it.

#83 HaydenFan

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 12:56

I think value is directly tied to price. It's why 2million to race in GP2 is a joke but 2million to get a ride in NASCAR, Indycar, of F1 would be a steal. And if GP2 can't demonstrate a value it's just a Sucker's Tax. Pay 50% more and get...what, an hour in the F1 pitlane every day?

I don't think it's unfair at all, I think it's just bullshit. And I can't stand when people try to peddle it.


But if Wickens won the GP2 title in 2011 instead of the FR3.5 title, he'd at least be in a backmarker car last season. But he won the FR3.5 crown and had to fall back on a Mercedes DTM ride (with not a single public promise or guarantee of any F1 tests or evaluations) to race in 2012. For the money, yes, it's a competitive series that technologically rivals GP2, but that one hour around F1 management might just be enough.

#84 Jackman

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 12:56

They don't have to offer value to you: they have to offer it to their customers. And there's a grid full of drivers who clearly think it's worth doing.

Sure, it's expensive, but if people didn't believe it was worth it...

#85 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 13:07

But if Wickens won the GP2 title in 2011 instead of the FR3.5 title, he'd at least be in a backmarker car last season. But he won the FR3.5 crown and had to fall back on a Mercedes DTM ride (with not a single public promise or guarantee of any F1 tests or evaluations) to race in 2012. For the money, yes, it's a competitive series that technologically rivals GP2, but that one hour around F1 management might just be enough.


Wickens would be in DTM. Assuming he was smart enough to realise he wasn't entitled to an F1 drive. He wasn't going to get promoted on pace. The good GP2 drivers are having to pay to take the next step, why would Wickens break that chain?

#86 expert

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 14:00

GP2 is higher profile, on the same weekends and tracks as F1, and I think drivers believe that if they can make some stand out performances there it will be more noticeable and compelling to potential sponsors and F1 teams - they are probably right. That's where the perceived value is. I'm sure the rest of the difference is made up by the fact it is actually more expensive to run (seems a safe assumption).

3.5 seems to work fine as a training ground for drivers that already have backing and don't need to attract attention (like the RB drivers, Bianchi etc.) but it obviously doesn't help drivers who do need attention (Frijins)*. It's no point saying "but the cars are almost as fast", as if that mattered then F1 teams would still be looking towards IndyCar.



* or rather, doesn't help ENOUGH, Frijin's is no doubt getting more attention (and Sauber interest at least) but it's not a direct route to F1.

Edited by expert, 20 March 2013 - 14:02.


#87 Myrvold

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 17:33

But if Wickens won the GP2 title in 2011 instead of the FR3.5 title, he'd at least be in a backmarker car last season.


Like Valsecchi is this season?

Backmarkers need money or experience.

#88 KingB

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 18:51

Interestingly Valsecchi says Leimer will be champion, then Calado and Ericsson.
He also states, that DAMS will not be champion again, because Ericsson isn't as good as Grosjean or himself :lol:

#89 charly0418

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 19:26

Interestingly Valsecchi says Leimer will be champion, then Calado and Ericsson.
He also states, that DAMS will not be champion again, because Ericsson isn't as good as Grosjean or himself :lol:


I can agree with that. Leimer is very underrated and Ericsson is good but not enough to win the series. Funny he didnt mention his former teammate Nasr.

#90 midgrid

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 20:53

I would be surprised if Leimer can beat Calado over the course of the season, barring exceptional circumstances.

#91 charly0418

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 21:53

I would be surprised if Leimer can beat Calado over the course of the season, barring exceptional circumstances.


Leimer closed last season on fire, while Calado was the other way around. Im not saying I completely agree with Valsecchi, but I do notice that people underrate Leimer.

In Fact, if you look at last years standings, and remove the drivers that moved on to F1, Calado is 1st and Leimer 2nd

Edited by charly0418, 20 March 2013 - 21:58.


#92 Tufty

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 00:45

GP2 Qualy = 7:50am, Friday

Thanks :D

#93 tvianna

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 01:39

I think the most talented drivers are Calado and Nasr. As a brazilian, I hope Nasr can emulate his second season in British F3.
He is the only hope of a new brazilian driver to get to F1 in the short term.

#94 sentoan

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 08:28

Posted Image
Posted Image (via @dennisvanrhee)
http://gp2es.wordpre...arrilla-2013-2/

#95 KingB

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 09:22

did Jake Rosenzweig disappear? :D

#96 Peat

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 10:32

I liker the Rapax livery where the sidepod ties into the airbox extension. Nice.

#97 HistoryFan

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 13:19

My thinkings:

1. James Calado
2. Stefano Coletti
3. Stéphane Richelmi
4. Marcus Ericsson
5. Fabio Leimer
6. Sam Bird
7. Felipe Nasr
8. Tom Dillmann
9. Johnny Cecotto jr.
10. Jolyon Palmer
11. Sergio Canamasas
12. Kevin Giovesi
13. Rio Haryanto
14. Nathanael Berthon
15. Daniel Abt
16. Mitch Evans
17. Kevin Ceccon
18. Julián Leal
19. Adrian Quaife-Hobbs
20. Daniel de Jong
21. René Binder
22. Conor Daly
23. Pal Varhaug
24. Simon Trummer
25. Jake Rosenzeig
26. Ma Qing-Hua

#98 Bleu

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 13:57

Group photo drivers?

Top row: Berthon, Ceccon, Daly, Varhaug, Binder, Giovesi, Quaife-Hobbs, De Jong
Middle row: Nasr, Palmer, Dillmann, Bird, Canamasas, Ma, Haryanto, Coletti, Trummer
Bottom row: Ericsson, Richelmi, Calado, Abt, Cecotto, Evans, Leal, Leimer



#99 Brandz07

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 14:16

I liker the Rapax livery where the sidepod ties into the airbox extension. Nice.


:up:

Contender for best livery IMO.

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#100 midgrid

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 16:45

Alfonso de Orleans-Borbon (Racing Engineering team principal): Calado is our main competitor.

Calado himself identifies Nasr, Ericsson and Coletti as his main rivals in this week's print edition.