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Mercedes-AMG 2013 W04 - PART II


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#101 slmk

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 15:35

Having looked at all the analyses done by various people I think the W04 is about where the W01 was in 2010, behind the leading group and clear of the midfield pack. Maybe there'll be updates for Malaysia, and maybe things will pan out differently in the heat, but if the car's to actually win a race this year either we'll need favourable track characteristics and conditions, or to out-develop Ferrari, Lotus and RBR by a few tenths at least. It's a tall order...

I'm completely unqualified in punditry and statistical alchemy and I'm useless at guess-the-downforce-with-jedi-mind-tricks so I might be wrong.


I suggest you wait until after this Sunday to finalise your opinion.

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#102 tvianna

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 15:48

It's premature yet to judge the ultimate potential of the W04, but it's definitely closed the gap to the front. I would like to see them racing the same strategy to the likes of Red Bull and Ferrari to get a better picture.

#103 Bartonz20let

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 15:52

I suggest you wait until after this Sunday to finalise your opinion.



Even that's too early to truly know IMO.

@ooxlox, your probibly as qualified as many of the pundits so wouldn't worry about it.

#104 Gareth

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 15:54

I don't like the strategy, but the fact they went for it shows some self confidence, certainly.

I thought it was a sensible call. Once Hamilton was passed by the Ferraris and Kimi in stint 1, there was pretty much zero chance of him beating them by going with a 3 stop. There was also pretty much zero chance of a failed attempt at a 2 stop making him lose a place. So it was worth the gamble. They may have finished further down the road than they could have done, but they got the same number of points and at least gave themselves a chance at picking up more.

#105 Masenco

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 16:04

I thought it was a sensible call. Once Hamilton was passed by the Ferraris and Kimi in stint 1, there was pretty much zero chance of him beating them by going with a 3 stop. There was also pretty much zero chance of a failed attempt at a 2 stop making him lose a place. So it was worth the gamble. They may have finished further down the road than they could have done, but they got the same number of points and at least gave themselves a chance at picking up more.


I also liked the fact that they went for it, had the mediums performed as well as the super softs we would have had a great chance at the win.
I do think that that when the ferrari's and vet were catching Lewis at great rate they should have told him to up his pace and switched to a 3 stop straight away.


#106 Szoelloe

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 16:21

I thought it was a sensible call. Once Hamilton was passed by the Ferraris and Kimi in stint 1, there was pretty much zero chance of him beating them by going with a 3 stop. There was also pretty much zero chance of a failed attempt at a 2 stop making him lose a place. So it was worth the gamble. They may have finished further down the road than they could have done, but they got the same number of points and at least gave themselves a chance at picking up more.


You mean aborting the two-stopper? I fully agree. What I originally meant was attempting a 2 two-stop strategy was what I don't really like, though of course there are arguments beside it, even if one doesn't take into account the flamboyant way Lotus - KR - made it succeed. I admit there is a good amount of hindsight involved in my opinion, or feeling, rather, but I can't help wishing they pushed instead on a 3 stop race, the car seemed to be up for it, and for me, it would have been more entertaining, that's all. From what I have seen so far, although this year's rubbers are still very vulnerable, and abusing them is out of question, they still seem to be offering way more lateral grip than last year, even when going off. That - if true - would certainly help to maintain some aspects at least of racing.

Edited by Szoelloe, 20 March 2013 - 16:22.


#107 kedia990

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 16:40

What I really appreciated was the fact that once they realized they had no chance of catching the frontrunners, and that they had a sufficient lead to the guy behind, they decided to switch strategy, which I've rarely seen at McLaren. It was good thinking and prevented Lewis from losing places if the Mediums fell off the cliff towards the end of the race. Sure I think they drove to a slower delta initially than they should have and maybe 2-stop wasn't the right initial call in the first place, but the fact that they recognized this and switched in time to prevent further losses gives Merc a +1 in my books.

#108 DutchCruijff

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 22:07

http://www.f1fanatic...1AUS_HZ4747.jpg

Sweet Jesus, that is a pic.

#109 Speedoholic

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 07:49

2012:
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/98259

2013:
http://www.autosport...t.php/id/106192

Kind of worries me.

#110 Szoelloe

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 07:52

2012:
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/98259

2013:
http://www.autosport...t.php/id/106192

Kind of worries me.


YEAH.


#111 Boxerevo

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 08:04

Faith on Lewis. :up:

#112 Timstr11

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 09:03

#F1 '@LewisHamilton says Merc devoted too much of Friday in AUS to trying new stuff, so this time the Friday focus will be all on set-up

@LewisHamilton on Merc's AUS strategy: “If we knew what we know now we wouldn't have done what we did...” C'est la vie!



#113 Markn93

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 09:06

"New stuff" = new bits or new setup direction? I assume the latter.

#114 Obi Offiah

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 09:08

2012:
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/98259

2013:
http://www.autosport...t.php/id/106192

Kind of worries me.

Agreed. Mercedes was one of the first, if not the outright first team to talk about being a stones throw away from understanding the tyres. This happened very early in the season, around China. It could be that development limitations of the W03 curbed whatever masked whatever progress they had made tyre wise.

#115 OoxLox

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 09:13

Agreed. Mercedes was one of the first, if not the outright first team to talk about being a stones throw away from understanding the tyres. This happened very early in the season, around China. It could be that development limitations of the W03 curbed whatever masked whatever progress they had made tyre wise.


This is what I'm hoping, and on the face of it this year should be a lot better for in-season development as they don't have the DDRS white elephant to pursue and the coanda exhaust is on the car and working from the start. Dear weather Gods, can we have a dry FP1 and FP2 PLEASE!!!!

#116 TF110

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 09:38

Can't wait to see where they're at come Friday practice. I kinda hope for wet weather from what they showed in Melbourne practice, but then again I want to see if their dry pace is top 3.

#117 David1976

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 09:49

2012:
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/98259

2013:
http://www.autosport...t.php/id/106192

Kind of worries me.



Wow. Kind of put's it all in perspective doesn't it. Having said that Mercedes have a lot more strength in depth this year than they did a year ago. And the fastest driver on the grid.

#118 Watkins74

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 09:58

Last year Schumacher qualified 3rd at Malaysia. Just curious if people think Hamilton/Rosberg will match/beat that?



#119 Alx09

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 10:00

I'd say one of them could achieve 3rd, unless Merc have adjusted their one-lap pace to work better in the race.

Edited by Alx09, 21 March 2013 - 10:02.


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#120 peroa

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 10:12

Last year Schumacher qualified 3rd at Malaysia. Just curious if people think Hamilton/Rosberg will match/beat that?

Q pace will be very important on a track like Sepang, fo' sure...

#121 Requiem84

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 10:15

Toto Wolff was also saying something about compromising the setup in qualifying with an eye on the race.

Raikkonen mentioned he only needed to take car of his front tires during the Aus GP. It seems they set up the lotus quite understeery, to protect the rear tires. This is at a cost of ultimate qualifying pace, but gives you an edge on tire wear. Mercedes might go down this route too.

Hamilton is a big disliker of understeer. How about Rosberg, can he cope with it?

#122 Markn93

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 10:29

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/106207

"We did something with the tyres which put the car more into understeer [on the super soft compound] and unfortunately when we made the change to new tyres it went too far the other way.

"So I went from massive understeer to massive oversteer. We just generally struggled with the balance.

Sounds like they really struggled last week, in fact. Testament to pace of drivers/car that they were able to secure an easy P5 :up:

#123 Masenco

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 10:34

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/106207

" We did something with the tyres which put the car more into understeer [on the super soft compound] and unfortunately when we made the change to new tyres it went too far the other way.

"So I went from massive understeer to massive oversteer. We just generally struggled with the balance.

Sounds like they really struggled last week, in fact. Testament to pace of drivers/car that they were able to secure an easy P5 :up:


I'm curious to know that they did to the tyres to make the car understreer.

Edited by Masenco, 21 March 2013 - 10:34.


#124 race addicted

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 10:37

Can only be pressure and/or camber one would think?

Sounds like a perfect weekend has the potential to be a lot better, and that's really encouraging.

#125 maverick69

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 10:43

I'm curious to know that they did to the tyres to make the car understreer.


Pressures.

#126 jrg19

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 11:40

Posted Image

New split vane under the tub.

#127 Markn93

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 12:10

Here are said vanes on the built car:

http://i.imgur.com/Ewg0zzR.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/jWq7Psf.jpg

And some more pics:

http://i.imgur.com/Cjtupcg.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/o6MGRk5.jpg } Exhaust/floor detail.

http://i.imgur.com/yP28LKK.jpg
http://img4.auto-mot...b98a-671248.jpg

Edited by Markn93, 21 March 2013 - 12:19.


#128 TomNokoe

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 14:54

Small update on the front wing? There's something beneath the 'o' of 'Petronas that looks new, also them strange things parallel to the drivers head

#129 Markn93

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 14:59

Small update on the front wing? There's something beneath the 'o' of 'Petronas that looks new, also them strange things parallel to the drivers head

Cooling outlets? That's just standard Malaysia spec, you'll see lots of teams making similar changes.

#130 maverick69

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 15:02

Posted Image

New split vane under the tub.


Plus a full-on monkey seat.

Unlikely to run passive DRS with that config........ Which ties in to Hamilton's comments earlier about going for a good set-up rather than trying out all the Gucci parts......

#131 HopkinsonF1

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 15:02

Hamilton is a big disliker of understeer. How about Rosberg, can he cope with it?


Myth. Hamilton has won a lot of races in understeering cars (especially in the Pirelli era, where setting the car up to understeer is often the best way to protect the tyres). He's very comfortable with oversteer, but that's very different from saying he can't cope with understeer.

#132 slmk

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 16:17

Was having a look at the Australian GP and to me it confirms my view that it is a relatively short car - look at 8:29 - 8:30 (when Kimi had a go at Lewis on Lap 1). When they turn side by side, you can see that the Lotus (which doesn't look like it is a long car itself) seems to be longer than the Mercedes.

At 7:33, you have a shot of Alonso getting around the outside of Lewis on T3 - hard to see whether the Ferrari is actually longer, but it definitely looks like it.

Link: http://www.youtube.c...p;v=neagmQeRoc0

Edited by slmk, 21 March 2013 - 16:21.


#133 Szoelloe

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 16:20

Was having a look at the Australian GP () and to me it confirms my view that it is a relatively short car - look at 8:29 - 8:30 (when Kimi had a go at Lewis on Lap 1). When they turn side by side, you can see that the Lotus (which doesn't look like it is a long car itself) seems to be longer than the Mercedes.

At 7:33, you have a shot of Alonso getting around the outside of Lewis on T3 - hard to see whether the Ferrari is actually longer, but it definitely looks like it.


Was the W03 longer?


#134 slmk

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 16:22

Was the W03 longer?


Don't know... but it definitely looks like the W04 has a relatively shorter wheelbase and a shorter chassis overall (relative to its rivals).

#135 Szoelloe

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 16:27

Don't know... but it definitely looks like the W04 has a relatively shorter wheelbase and a shorter chassis overall (relative to its rivals).


The W04 is actually longer than the W03. Neither is it considered to be a short WB concept. I doubt the thought even entered their minds to go for a short car. very bad experience.


#136 Owen

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 22:26

Wolff to replace Nick Fry as CEO
http://gu.com/p/3ej55/tw

#137 slmk

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 22:27

Wolff to replace Nick Fry as CEO
http://gu.com/p/3ej55/tw


Nice, but expected.

#138 Timstr11

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 22:51

Nice, but expected.

Why is it nice?
Fry is the commercial guy and I never understood the fans obsession with the guy responsible for sponsors.
He's well connected and was instrumental in hooking up Blackberry for instance. No wonder Mercedes are keeping him as a consultant.


#139 Starish

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 23:47

Toto Wolff was also saying something about compromising the setup in qualifying with an eye on the race.

Raikkonen mentioned he only needed to take car of his front tires during the Aus GP. It seems they set up the lotus quite understeery, to protect the rear tires. This is at a cost of ultimate qualifying pace, but gives you an edge on tire wear. Mercedes might go down this route too.

Hamilton is a big disliker of understeer. How about Rosberg, can he cope with it?

Raikkonen did not quite have an understeer setup, he actually hates it, he usually has a controlled balanced setup more on the oversteer side. The reason he is light on his rears is because he drives the car heavily on the front axis and throws the front, its his driving style showing through.

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#140 slmk

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 23:53

Why is it nice?
Fry is the commercial guy and I never understood the fans obsession with the guy responsible for sponsors.
He's well connected and was instrumental in hooking up Blackberry for instance. No wonder Mercedes are keeping him as a consultant.


I guess I am biased due to Fry's long-term association with BAR.


#141 femi

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 01:33

Wolff to replace Nick Fry as CEO
http://gu.com/p/3ej55/tw



I am glad that they are parting amicably.

#142 stanga

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 03:32

The wear on the rears looked concerning! And the lap times weren't great. Roh-ro?

#143 Markn93

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 03:37

The wear on the rears looked concerning! And the lap times weren't great. Roh-ro?

Lewis was doing practically identical times to Webber, if a tad faster, he started the stint before and could go a couple of laps longer. Ferrari didn't do 'long run' pace and Kimi 1 39s/40s at the end weren't on full fuel, unless you think the Lotus is 3s a lap faster than RB/Merc. Nico looked good too, but there's definitely nothing to worry about yet, a good session :up:

#144 Grundle

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 03:39

The wear on the rears looked concerning! And the lap times weren't great. Roh-ro?

It was worse for Lewis. His rears were destroyed. I think Rosberg made them last longer.

#145 stanga

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 03:41

Lewis was doing practically identical times to Webber, if a tad faster, he started the stint before and could go a couple of laps longer. Ferrari didn't do 'long run' pace and Kimi 1 39s/40s at the end weren't on full fuel, unless you think the Lotus is 3s a lap faster than RB/Merc. Nico looked good too, but there's definitely nothing to worry about yet, a good session :up:


I was more talking about the 1:41s Kimi was doing. Even if they weren't doing a full long run, I don't see why they wouldn't fuel the car for one; the data would surely be more meaningful.

Wouldn't mind seeing the lap times compared.

#146 stanga

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 03:42

It was worse for Lewis. His rears were destroyed. I think Rosberg made them last longer.


He did start a couple of laps (3?) before Rosberg.

#147 SunnyENTP

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 03:42

Lewis was doing practically identical times to Webber, if a tad faster, he started the stint before and could go a couple of laps longer. Ferrari didn't do 'long run' pace and Kimi 1 39s/40s at the end weren't on full fuel, unless you think the Lotus is 3s a lap faster than RB/Merc. Nico looked good too, but there's definitely nothing to worry about yet, a good session :up:



The car does not have that much pace. I dont know why you were comparing it to Webbers times when Vettel was at least 8ths faster than Webber. Nico the clear faster by 3thenths of the Mercs. For the record there was not a single lap time Lewis was faster than Nico. Merc is the 4th/5thnbest car.

#148 BigCHrome

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 03:43

Yep, race pace didn't look fantastic. Another 5th place would be quite a good result.

#149 SunnyENTP

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 03:43

He did start a couple of laps (3?) before Rosberg.



No same time.

#150 TomNokoe

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 03:43

Am I right in saying that Nico did more laps at the start of the session on lower fuel than most guys? Yet his tyres still behaved well later on in the session