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Mercedes-AMG 2013 W04 - PART II


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#2001 slmk

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 11:22

This is about rear roll stiffness and it's effect on rear tyres and diffuser performance. It's not about a stiff front as Mclaren are supposedly running.


Then I suppose that's where Mercedes needs to improve - soften the rear and still make the diffuser work.

The rear of the Mercedes seems underdeveloped compared to its chief rivals.

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#2002 V3TT3L

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 12:20

JA + Gillan on tires

http://www.jamesalle...rd-tyre-change/

#2003 Grundle

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 12:58

Then I suppose that's where Mercedes needs to improve - soften the rear and still make the diffuser work.

The rear of the Mercedes seems underdeveloped compared to its chief rivals.

Red bull and Mercedes are the cars with most apparent rake. Could be why they run a stiff rear.


#2004 Clatter

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 13:17

Red bull and Mercedes are the cars with most apparent rake. Could be why they run a stiff rear.


It's rather difficult to consider either of them running a stiff suspension when your a Mac fan.

#2005 Skinnyguy

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 13:29

According to AMuS Redbull and Mercedes are running a relatively higher rear roll stiffness as the car concepts require. However, the rear roll stiffness is killing for the rear tyres during cornering and reducing rear roll stiffness is not good either because it affects the aerodynamic balance due to air entering the diffusor from the sides reducing its effectiveness.


Sad some people is still buying the "too much downforce hurts the tyres" story.

RB has improved big time their tyre management since Australia with the same car. If you want to take your tyres further, you better work in your suspension.

#2006 JaredS

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 14:27

It's an interesting pov that using Rosberg as a reference point, is the w04 worse than the w03 relative to the competition at the same time point of last year?


No it's an invalid pov because Rosberg's poor reliability this season compared to last makes the comparison null and void so far. What you're trying to do is transparent by the way. You know what I mean.  ;)

#2007 JaredS

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 14:32

Sad some people is still buying the "too much downforce hurts the tyres" story.


You might be right, you might be wrong. But I don't understand your lofty view when you, like all of us, are merely speculating. You, like most of us, are just another keyboard warrior and not all that well armed I might add.

#2008 peroa

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 14:39

Sad some people is still buying the "too much downforce hurts the tyres" story.

RB has improved big time their tyre management since Australia with the same car. If you want to take your tyres further, you better work in your suspension.

So that's why RBR are bringing last years wings, sure...

#2009 CHIUNDA

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 17:07

Back to "pre season managing expectations" mode once again on the part of the team www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107160

#2010 yrc

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 17:51

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/22395082

#2011 Sakae

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 18:15

Please, not again repetition of BMW experiment.

#2012 Kingshark

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 18:17

Mercedes are exactly what I was expecting them to be. They probably have the best qualifying pace, but no race pace. It was the same song last year too.

Edited by Kingshark, 03 May 2013 - 18:17.


#2013 SamH123

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 19:04

If Merc can continue their strong qualifying form the Spanish track is a good place to start from the front rows.

However we were nowhere last year in Spain so I'm not sure how we will fare next weekend...

#2014 oldracer1957

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 21:08

http://www.youtube.c...feature=mh_lolz

:kiss:

Edited by oldracer1957, 03 May 2013 - 21:12.


#2015 FastnLoud

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 21:15

Ross Brawn

2012 " We followed the wrong development path and after the win in china we thought developing the car around the tyres was the right way to go but we got it wrong"

2013 " We are looking to develop the car so it is easy on the rear tyres"



#2016 SunnyENTP

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 12:00

Ross Brawn

2012 " We followed the wrong development path and after the win in china we thought developing the car around the tyres was the right way to go but we got it wrong"

2013 " We are looking to develop the car so it is easy on the rear tyres"



I dont see what his recent quote.

#2017 Rybo

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 17:05

I dont see what his recent quote.


He is pretty much saying they don't know what they are doing. They know the problem, but they cannot find the solution.

#2018 Skinnyguy

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 21:02

You might be right, you might be wrong. But I don't understand your lofty view when you, like all of us, are merely speculating. You, like most of us, are just another keyboard warrior and not all that well armed I might add.


I don´t like lame loser excuses. That one was. I don´t like people buying them to force changes they´d like either.

#2019 Skinnyguy

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 21:08

So that's why RBR are bringing last years wings, sure...


If you really think they´re taking downforce off the car, you need some sleep.

It was just an excuse to lobby for harder tyres after their Oz poor shape (which would make their relative performance against the rest increase). That´s faster than actually working on your suspension to get better. Luckily Pirelli and FIA didn´t bite. Red Bull better keep their head down and work to improve their tyre management, as they´re already doing, as their progress in such a short time shows. They´re already much better at tyre management with the same car, which shows how full of crap the claim was.

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#2020 Szoelloe

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 21:29

He is pretty much saying they don't know what they are doing. They know the problem, but they cannot find the solution.



Oh, good. That's a relief. Thanks for the translaion.

#2021 JaredS

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 03:49

I don´t like lame loser excuses. That one was. I don´t like people buying them to force changes they´d like either.


Not on rival team has come out and disputed RBR's claims. Some teams such as Lotus has said they would like things to stay as they are but NO ONE has disagreed with RBR'S claim that their high downforce is hurting the tyres.

In fact, there are direct quotes to prove RBR is telling their truth.

“I can understand why they are not happy,” said Boullier. “The way they designed the car is all based on the aero. This is why, when the tyres start to be an important part of the car and the car performance, they may struggle. “They are fast on one lap but then struggle with tyre degradation, which is partially due to the way they designed the car.”

Also it's well known drivers are going at less than the limit to preserve the tyres. Have a good hard think about the mechanism of this. They a going well below the sliding limit of the tyres. Hence it's not sliding that is the problem but rather the heat generated in the tyre due to the downforce. The force squashing the tyre into the road. So if say RBR has 20% more downforce than others, then even if their drivers drive at 80% of the limit, that is actually still at the same downforce level as another team driving at 100% limit.

So whilst you think you are so right, you may well be talking complete sh*t.

#2022 Skinnyguy

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:46

Not on rival team has come out and disputed RBR's claims. Some teams such as Lotus has said they would like things to stay as they are but NO ONE has disagreed with RBR'S claim that their high downforce is hurting the tyres.


No, just like not scientist will come out today to deny Moon is just a big piece of cheese. All I hear from rivals is "we are still lacking downforce, we have to improve there". So it must not be a bad thing, uh?


In fact, there are direct quotes to prove RBR is telling their truth.

“I can understand why they are not happy,” said Boullier. “The way they designed the car is all based on the aero. This is why, when the tyres start to be an important part of the car and the car performance, they may struggle. “They are fast on one lap but then struggle with tyre degradation, which is partially due to the way they designed the car.”


Well you´ll have to look for one of these quotes because this particular one doesn´t.

Here it says RB will do everything to gain more downforce, at expense of other areas, like tyre management. One of these things they do is having stiff suspension settings to keep height stable and the downforce production stable too. Does that mean the extra downforce achieved with stiff springs is damaging the tyres? No. It means the stiff springs themselves are damaging the tyres. They won´t get faster over long runs removing downforce, they´ll get faster getting the same or more downforce with a softer spring rate that helps the tyre to stay alive.


Also it's well known drivers are going at less than the limit to preserve the tyres. Have a good hard think about the mechanism of this. They a going well below the sliding limit of the tyres. Hence it's not sliding that is the problem but rather the heat generated in the tyre due to the downforce. The force squashing the tyre into the road. So if say RBR has 20% more downforce than others, then even if their drivers drive at 80% of the limit, that is actually still at the same downforce level as another team driving at 100% limit.


All drivers have to do is not locking wheels, avoiding big slip angles, and be careful with their right foot exiting slow stuff. These tyres don´t like sliding, and downforce helps preventing slides. They don´t have to remove downforce, they have to look for more downforce with different suspension settings. It´s not speculative, it´s factual: look at what they´ve done in recent races with the same car, they´ve done stints as long as anyone, with more downforce than their rivals. So downforce was not the problem.

#2023 JaredS

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 13:28

No, just like not scientist will come out today to deny Moon is just a big piece of cheese. All I hear from rivals is "we are still lacking downforce, we have to improve there". So it must not be a bad thing, uh?




Well you´ll have to look for one of these quotes because this particular one doesn´t.

Here it says RB will do everything to gain more downforce, at expense of other areas, like tyre management. One of these things they do is having stiff suspension settings to keep height stable and the downforce production stable too. Does that mean the extra downforce achieved with stiff springs is damaging the tyres? No. It means the stiff springs themselves are damaging the tyres. They won´t get faster over long runs removing downforce, they´ll get faster getting the same or more downforce with a softer spring rate that helps the tyre to stay alive.




All drivers have to do is not locking wheels, avoiding big slip angles, and be careful with their right foot exiting slow stuff. These tyres don´t like sliding, and downforce helps preventing slides. They don´t have to remove downforce, they have to look for more downforce with different suspension settings. It´s not speculative, it´s factual: look at what they´ve done in recent races with the same car, they´ve done stints as long as anyone, with more downforce than their rivals. So downforce was not the problem.


You make some really interesting points. I don't have a problem with that and in fact welcome that. However you continuously confuse opinion with fact. We really don't know exactly what the problem with these tyres are. Even the teams don't so how is it possible that you do?

#2024 Skinnyguy

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 13:42

You make some really interesting points. I don't have a problem with that and in fact welcome that. However you continuously confuse opinion with fact. We really don't know exactly what the problem with these tyres are. Even the teams don't so how is it possible that you do?


Pedro de la Rosa, during Oz GP:

"We´ve been looking at the rear of their car, their exhausts in particular. We´ve estimated where they send their exhaust gasses, and it´s very close to the tyres. They get extra downforce, it´s an optimum solution from a aerodynamic point of view, but that cooks the tyres. We could replicate that, but there´s no point, we would be slower over a GP distance."

That´s another perfect example of what that quote of Boullier about RB means. It´s not the extra downforce they get putting too much stress on tyres, it´s the way they get it and the compromises they ignore.

How am I so sure These quotes after Oz fiasco was just some lobbyism to force tyre modifications?

1) Every team is still persuing downforce. Everyone´s crying "we lack downforce".
2) No one is using lower wing angles, everyone has still the max downforce wings in 85% of circuits (bar Canada, Spa, Monza...)
3) Teams make huge progress in tyre management as season goes on while they still update and strenghten their aero.
4) Pirelli tyres have been very fragile since day 1, the team with the most downforce has dominated the series during Pirelli era.

#2025 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 14:13

1) Every team is still persuing downforce. Everyone´s crying "we lack downforce".
2) No one is using lower wing angles, everyone has still the max downforce wings in 85% of circuits (bar Canada, Spa, Monza...)


We haven't heard RB mention anything about needing more DF. It doesn't matter if they did/didn't. What's most important and is clearly indicative that RB has plenty of DF is to look no further than their RW. Clearly is has the lowest AoA on the grid by far. Sure their FW is quite complex and making plenty of DF and directing flow how they want to the rear, but the majority of the cars DF is made at the rear where RB are clearly going for less drag yet still have one of the lower speed trap figures even whilst trying to minimize said drag. Even RB's "high DF" RW has less AoA than other teams medium DF wings.



On another note, interesting to look back to quotes from Ross last year & compare to this year and see the similarity.

#2026 Spoch

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 19:03

Just read Mark Gillian's take on the new tyre tweaks and how adversely it would affect Mercedes on JAonf1.com and it got me thinking. With the thirsty engine of the Merc and the over heating as well could it be that the Merc engine by virture of the fact that the intake is more produces more exhaust fumes which in turn over heats the tyres? If this is true then how come FI, Macca do not have the same problem? Also I would think that the engineers being paid stupidly would have figured this out were it to be the case

#2027 Szoelloe

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 19:41

Just read Mark Gillian's take on the new tyre tweaks and how adversely it would affect Mercedes on JAonf1.com and it got me thinking. With the thirsty engine of the Merc and the over heating as well could it be that the Merc engine by virture of the fact that the intake is more produces more exhaust fumes which in turn over heats the tyres? If this is true then how come FI, Macca do not have the same problem? Also I would think that the engineers being paid stupidly would have figured this out were it to be the case


That's exactly why the 'thirsty Mercedes lump' theory is questionable, to say the least. There has to be another problem.


#2028 Seanspeed

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 23:53

News to me that the Mercedes engine is 'thirsty'. Was pretty well-known that the Ferrari was most thirsty of the top three. That might have changed, but I've heard absolutely nothing to indicate that the past couple years.

#2029 SamH123

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 00:04

News to me that the Mercedes engine is 'thirsty'. Was pretty well-known that the Ferrari was most thirsty of the top three. That might have changed, but I've heard absolutely nothing to indicate that the past couple years.


I saw it suggested a few times last year with respect to Mclaren as well. I thought I read it from some reputable people as well but maybe it was all fan speculation, anyone know?

#2030 stanga

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 06:01

News to me that the Mercedes engine is 'thirsty'. Was pretty well-known that the Ferrari was most thirsty of the top three. That might have changed, but I've heard absolutely nothing to indicate that the past couple years.


Saw the suggestion plenty of times last year during TV commentary, I'm sure. Probably through Brundle et al.

#2031 Seanspeed

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 06:15

I was thinking of actual evidence, not commentary speculation.

#2032 BigCHrome

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 08:54

I was thinking of actual evidence, not commentary speculation.


They haven't given out the exact specs of the engines, so nobody knows which engine is the least fuel efficient, though it obviously makes sense that it's Mercedes considering they make the most power and Mercedes engined cars usually lose pace from qualifying to race.

#2033 Cavani

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 08:56

they have hamilton for 3 years , they just resigned rosberg last year , what is kubica for ? testing ? i am sure he would do rallying instead of testing

#2034 dhill39

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 10:35

they have hamilton for 3 years , they just resigned rosberg last year , what is kubica for ? testing ? i am sure he would do rallying instead of testing


They're just helping him out to see how he's doing with
his injuries.

Edited by dhill39, 06 May 2013 - 10:35.


#2035 bauss

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 11:02

Who knows, Kubica might be someone Toto wants to sign later to sort of be "his" guy. Some of these executive types always feel they must make some tangible change that could be attributed to them.

#2036 Szoelloe

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 11:14

Who knows, Kubica might be someone Toto wants to sign later to sort of be "his" guy. Some of these executive types always feel they must make some tangible change that could be attributed to them.


LOL, you mean like any actual president at primadonna Real-Madrid?


#2037 JaredS

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 14:04

There is some complete BS going on with Pirelli and Hembrey. Last year, near end of 2012, this is what he said about the upcoming 2013 tyres. http://www.formula1....13/1/14205.html

"extending the tyre’s peak performance window"

http://www.autoevolu...sion-52027.html

According to Pirelli’s Paul Hembrey, “Both the compounds and construction will be different, which means that the characteristics of the new tyres will be altered, with a wider working range"

http://blogs.bettor....-1-news-a205846

"This tyre, I think, has got a much wider working range and that's going to make it much easier to get the tyre working from the start of the season."

"Like Button, he also said that the tyres will provide a wider working range to the teams."

Yet now Hembrey says this about the 2013 tyres, just before the upcoming Barcelona change.

http://www.planetf1....a-wider-window-

"We're introducing a revised version of our hard tyre in Spain, which is closer in characteristics to the 2012 tyre," said the Pirelli motorsport boss. "This new tyre gives us a wider working temperature window"

WTF Hembrey!?!?!?!?!?

So let me summarise. Hembrey, and then Jenson after trialling the 2013 spec tyres in end of 2012, said that the 2013 tyres will have a wider working range.

NOW, after running the 2013 tyres for a few races and before the upcoming Barcelona change for the hard tyre, Hembrey comes out and says that they are changing the hard compound closer to the 2012 to give it a wider working range!

Whaaaaaaat!

Pirelli, what a wicked web we weave when we first learn to deceive. If you're going to wholesale bullish*t, at least remember wtf you said earlier so as not to completely contradict yourself and lose what little thread of credibility you were hanging onto.

Let me get the popcorn whilst the Pirelli apologists swallow this.

#2038 ApexMouse

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 15:49

Your reading comprehension needs work.

Theres a difference between temperature window and operating window.
Edit: Wrong thread anyway.

Edited by ApexMouse, 06 May 2013 - 15:49.


#2039 JaredS

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 16:03

Your reading comprehension needs work.

Theres a difference between temperature window and operating window.
Edit: Wrong thread anyway.


Wow, ok so if "temperature" is the parameter in temperature window, pray tell what is the key parameter(s) in operating window?

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#2040 swiniodzik

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 18:44

Here it says RB will do everything to gain more downforce, at expense of other areas, like tyre management. One of these things they do is having stiff suspension settings to keep height stable and the downforce production stable too. Does that mean the extra downforce achieved with stiff springs is damaging the tyres? No. It means the stiff springs themselves are damaging the tyres. They won´t get faster over long runs removing downforce, they´ll get faster getting the same or more downforce with a softer spring rate that helps the tyre to stay alive.

All drivers have to do is not locking wheels, avoiding big slip angles, and be careful with their right foot exiting slow stuff. These tyres don´t like sliding, and downforce helps preventing slides. They don´t have to remove downforce, they have to look for more downforce with different suspension settings. It´s not speculative, it´s factual: look at what they´ve done in recent races with the same car, they´ve done stints as long as anyone, with more downforce than their rivals. So downforce was not the problem.


No matter how soft your suspension is, no tyre can take unlimited amounts of energy through it. It can degrade faster through having too much downforce just as much as it can when there's not enough forces acting upon it. With the Bridgestones the former was a non-issue as the tyres were so hard that nobody was producing so much downforce that would make the tyre saturated with the energy being fed through it.

It's only logical that with the softer Pirellis this saturation point can be reached easier, and Red Bull could be hitting it. Which doesn't exclude the possibility of them adjusting their levels and still having more downforce than others. The fact they dominated the twisty S3 in Australia and then didn't replicate that dominance in the most downforce-dependant sectors of the following tracks (S2 in Malaysia, China and Bahrain; they didn't even record the best times in those sectors), can suggest they took some downforce off the car after the first race.

The AMuS article that was linked above actually says it's both things that contribute to the tyre wear issues which bite Red Bull and Mercedes - the classical trade-off between optimizing the suspension for tyre management or aero performance being one factor, but the excessive downforce levels on their own are said to be making the tread of the tyre peel faster. Horner is being quoted saying about this phenomenon explicitly. Whether their car has been correctly designed given the current requirements is another matter, of course.

#2041 MP422

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 23:40

Wow, ok so if "temperature" is the parameter in temperature window, pray tell what is the key parameter(s) in operating window?


I would assume temperature. :up:

#2042 JaredS

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 13:46

No matter how soft your suspension is, no tyre can take unlimited amounts of energy through it. It can degrade faster through having too much downforce just as much as it can when there's not enough forces acting upon it. With the Bridgestones the former was a non-issue as the tyres were so hard that nobody was producing so much downforce that would make the tyre saturated with the energy being fed through it.

It's only logical that with the softer Pirellis this saturation point can be reached easier, and Red Bull could be hitting it. Which doesn't exclude the possibility of them adjusting their levels and still having more downforce than others. The fact they dominated the twisty S3 in Australia and then didn't replicate that dominance in the most downforce-dependant sectors of the following tracks (S2 in Malaysia, China and Bahrain; they didn't even record the best times in those sectors), can suggest they took some downforce off the car after the first race.

The AMuS article that was linked above actually says it's both things that contribute to the tyre wear issues which bite Red Bull and Mercedes - the classical trade-off between optimizing the suspension for tyre management or aero performance being one factor, but the excessive downforce levels on their own are said to be making the tread of the tyre peel faster. Horner is being quoted saying about this phenomenon explicitly. Whether their car has been correctly designed given the current requirements is another matter, of course.


Beautifully explained, thanks.

#2043 Skinnyguy

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 14:47

No matter how soft your suspension is, no tyre can take unlimited amounts of energy through it. It can degrade faster through having too much downforce just as much as it can when there's not enough forces acting upon it.


It´s a physical posibility, of course. If you put F1 tyres in that Newey weird GT5 prototype, they´ll desintegrate no matter how bouncy you set it, but we´re not in that scenario. You only have to look at which team has been totally dominating Pirelli era. In an F1 car with an F1 tyre, wear is down to suspension settings. Ask Mercedes.

#2044 ZooL

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 15:13

It´s a physical posibility, of course. If you put F1 tyres in that Newey weird GT5 prototype, they´ll desintegrate no matter how bouncy you set it, but we´re not in that scenario. You only have to look at which team has been totally dominating Pirelli era. In an F1 car with an F1 tyre, wear is down to suspension settings. Ask Mercedes.

It's not. It's luck.

If it was down to suspension settings Aldo Costa would have already solved it by now, he has prior form at Ferrari for treating the tyres gently.

#2045 Seanspeed

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 17:32

It's not. It's luck.

If it was down to suspension settings Aldo Costa would have already solved it by now, he has prior form at Ferrari for treating the tyres gently.

So its just luck that Mercedes have had tire wear problems two years in a row?

And that Ferrari and Lotus are good on their tires two years in a row?

All just luck?

Just because Costa worked at Ferrari when they had good tire performance doesn't mean he was the reason for it and even if he was its by no means guaranteed that he could single-handedly replicate it at Mercedes.

#2046 ApexMouse

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 17:38

If Mercedes had good Tyre wear then it would be fine engineering and awesome driving skill you see.

#2047 Nahnever

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 19:13

New videos:

- Lewis talks about his Steering Wheel


- Nico talks about his Steering Wheel


:)

#2048 Cavani

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 20:05

Posted Image

didn't know the FRIC suspension actually lets the car fly :D

#2049 drunkenmaster

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 22:39

Bild says the Merc will get a new paint-job for Barcelona: More silver, less grey!

Lauda: "We want that the car looks even more like a silver arrow. And we believe it'll be good for the team, because a new presentation brings also new motivation. Therefore the new appearance."

Technically they're working on a new exhaust, front and rear wing.

http://www.bild.de/s...08300.bild.html

Edited by drunkenmaster, 07 May 2013 - 22:41.


#2050 Obi Offiah

Obi Offiah
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Posted 07 May 2013 - 23:15

Bild says the Merc will get a new paint-job for Barcelona: More silver, less grey!

Lauda: "We want that the car looks even more like a silver arrow. And we believe it'll be good for the team, because a new presentation brings also new motivation. Therefore the new appearance."

Technically they're working on a new exhaust, front and rear wing.

http://www.bild.de/s...08300.bild.html

I have been secretly waiting for such a colour change to happen.