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why Webber is so unlucky


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#1 Shiroo

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 18:43

Just read that he didn't have telemetry, KERS till lap 20 and couldn't set his clutch at the start.

How the heck he has so much bad luck? It is insane. I rewatched start of GP Australia and he started normally, but he was overtaken by almost 6 cars cuz of missing KERS. He started normally but without KERS he was liek sitting there waiting for rest to overtake him.

How is that even possible? I mean he often has problems with KERS or clutch, while Vettel has none...

And it is not conspiracy topic. Just why? I asume that telemtry is bad luck. But clutch and KERS, maybe he somehow misuse them before race, at warming lap or w/e?

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#2 pRy

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 18:45

It does seem to always be Webber who is missing kers or has terrible starts.

#3 Red17

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 18:47

And it is not conspiracy topic. Just why? I asume that telemtry is bad luck. But clutch and KERS, maybe he somehow misuse them before race, at warming lap or w/e?

I will just write this: Chris Amon.

Or... he's on Jp's list.

#4 Jimisgod

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 18:52

Omg the team is screwing him deliberately they are making him a poor #2 and he is fastest.

Wait, this is Massa we're talking about, right?

#5 ToniLola

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 18:53

seems like all were related. after the race Red Bull said it was the ECU, but today MES says it was a problem in the Red Bull Garage. hmmm.

webber does have way more problems than vettel. some guys just break stuff. i used to work with a girl that fried computers on a regular basis.

#6 Shiroo

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 19:01

Omg the team is screwing him deliberately they are making him a poor #2 and he is fastest.

Wait, this is Massa we're talking about, right?

can't they just put some focus on his car then? I just don't know HOW it is possible that Vettel never had KERS problem at the start. And Webber has that like every 3rd race.

#7 Topsu

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 19:12

I think it's starting to be beyond bad luck. He might not be the best starter, but many times he has been compromised by faulty KERS. And problems like missing telemetry will of course reduce his pace. Are the people working exclusively on Webber's car incompetent?

#8 Coops3

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 19:12

The number of KERS failures he's had over the last few years is ridiculous. RB need to do something about it IMO as it's going to hurt their chances at the constructor's title.

#9 Bruce

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 19:14

If Webber were Massa, there would be an uproar....;)

#10 Watkins74

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 19:15

In my opinion Webber was slow off the lights and screwed his start even before he would've been able to engage the KERS.

Edited by Watkins74, 18 March 2013 - 19:15.


#11 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 19:23

If he didn't have telemetry he wouldn't have been able to properly set his clutch point for the start. So he had to do it somewhat manually.

Which I'm in favor of, make the starts more random and exciting.

#12 Bruce

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 19:31

If he didn't have telemetry he wouldn't have been able to properly set his clutch point for the start. So he had to do it somewhat manually.

Which I'm in favor of, make the starts more random and exciting.



I doubt that poor Webber much enjoyed the randomness of his start....

Edited by Bruce, 18 March 2013 - 19:32.


#13 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 19:35

If they were all more like that it'd be fine. At least one driver per race needs to disappear in a cloud of tire smoke at the start.

#14 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 19:39

Well spinning the wheels at the start was more of an issue than a lack of KERS. Even if he'd have had KERS he'd still have been passed. Maybe by 1 or 2 less cars, but he'd still have been passed by numerous cars.

#15 fastlegs

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 19:56

Webber is one of my favorite drivers and I'd really like to see him win more.

However with that said, he has been a shitty starter for several years notwithstanding Sunday's start.

During Friday practices he needs to spend at least 50% of his time practicing his starts.

#16 Lights

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 19:56

Has Vettel ever had any KERS/other technical failures hampering his speed? Except of course for races during the 2011 season when he was cruising 20 seconds in front anyway.

Edited by Lights, 18 March 2013 - 19:57.


#17 ThomFi

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 19:59

If he didn't have telemetry he wouldn't have been able to properly set his clutch point for the start. So he had to do it somewhat manually.

Which I'm in favor of, make the starts more random and exciting.


True, but Vettel had no telemetry either.
On the other hand, considering that the Red Bull is not the best starting car on the grid anyway and Webber had no telemetry and no KERS, the start was not that bad.


#18 Alx09

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 20:01

As Webber says "Helmut Marko has an agenda", perhaps?

#19 Jacobss

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 20:02

Has Vettel ever had any KERS/other technical failures hampering his speed? Except of course for races during the 2011 season when he was cruising 20 seconds in front anyway.

Like in China or Barcelona where Hamilton was just behind him? :rotfl: In both races he lost his KERS.

Get your facts straight.

To all conspiratists i can only say one thing - 2010. Look at Vettels mechanical failures and then at Webbers. :rolleyes:

Edited by Jacobss, 18 March 2013 - 20:08.


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#20 Lights

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 20:09

Like in China or Barcelona where Hamilton was just behind him? :rotfl: In both races he lost his KERS.

Get your facts straight.

To all conspiratists i can only say one thing - 2010. Look at Vettels mechanical failures and then at Webbers. :rolleyes:

It was a just question, but anyway, thanks for answering. Although I don't really know which years you mean, as I really can't recall them.

#21 ThomFi

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 20:09

Like in China or Barcelona where Hamilton was just behind him? :rotfl: In both races he lost his KERS.

Get your facts straight.

To all conspiratists i can only say one thing - 2010. Look at Vettels mechanical failures and then at Webbers. :rolleyes:


If a speed reduction to zero counts, I would like to throw some alternator issues in there too.

#22 Longtimefan

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 20:10

Well Mark was alongside goldenboy at the start so they had to do something to slow him down.



(yes, I'm joking)


#23 bernardoBR

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 20:32

webber does have way more problems than vettel. some guys just break stuff. i used to work with a girl that fried computers on a regular basis.


Yes. I remember Barrichello during the Ferrari days. His cars always breaked a lot more than Schumacher´s ones.

#24 Boxerevo

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 20:40

Webber's starts are just ridiculous.

#25 eff1fan

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 20:50

Just read that he didn't have telemetry, KERS till lap 20 and couldn't set his clutch at the start.

How the heck he has so much bad luck? It is insane. I rewatched start of GP Australia and he started normally, but he was overtaken by almost 6 cars cuz of missing KERS. He started normally but without KERS he was liek sitting there waiting for rest to overtake him.

How is that even possible? I mean he often has problems with KERS or clutch, while Vettel has none...

And it is not conspiracy topic. Just why? I asume that telemtry is bad luck. But clutch and KERS, maybe he somehow misuse them before race, at warming lap or w/e?


Perhaps Webber's bad luck is called Mirko... :)

#26 spacekid

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 20:55

I can remember a fair few car failures for Seb too. You could put it down to driving a Newey car, or maybe Marks side of the garage are as proficient at preparing a race car as they should be. I have no idea.

Mark does appear to have some poor luck, but I don't buy any conspiracy angle. I think some of this is perception, but maybe Mark does just suffer from some pretty poor luck? Or to put it another way, perhaps he is just at the brown and sticky end of a statistical anomoly stick?

#27 ed24f1

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 21:08

Webber probably used up all of his good luck with mechanical failures during 2010.

#28 Andrew Hope

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 21:23

Mark Webber is making millions of dollars driving for what has been the best Formula One team over the past five years. Please, tell me more about how bad his luck is.

#29 apoka

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 21:26

I think it would be good to have a more detailed analysis of the gap of all cars and drivers who got pole and stayed there after 2 laps. I would guess that it is more driver than car related.

On the topic "unlucky Webber" in general, I think while he has lots of issues, he is not more unlucky than his team mate. In 2010, he lost much less points than Vettel. In 2011 I don't really know - Vettel lost points at the end when it didn't matter much for the WDC. In 2012, Vettel had more issues in the first half and Webber in the second half. In the past few years, I don't think Webber had a season like Vettel in 2010 or Hamilton in 2012. In addition, Vettel sometimes doesn't even speak about problems.


#30 Dolph

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 21:30

Mark Webber is making millions of dollars driving for what has been the best Formula One team over the past five years. Please, tell me more about how bad his luck is.



Oooh, we all changed our minds now :rolleyes:

#31 Juan Kerr

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 21:54

Perhaps Webber's bad luck is called Mirko... :)

Well they obviously let his KERS battery go flat then didn't they!

#32 jj2728

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 21:58

I will just write this: Chris Amon.


With regards to bad luck I'd presume?

#33 Dolph

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 22:41

Just read that he didn't have telemetry, KERS till lap 20 and couldn't set his clutch at the start.

How the heck he has so much bad luck? It is insane. I rewatched start of GP Australia and he started normally, but he was overtaken by almost 6 cars cuz of missing KERS. He started normally but without KERS he was liek sitting there waiting for rest to overtake him.

How is that even possible? I mean he often has problems with KERS or clutch, while Vettel has none...

And it is not conspiracy topic. Just why? I asume that telemtry is bad luck. But clutch and KERS, maybe he somehow misuse them before race, at warming lap or w/e?



2010

#34 underdog13

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 23:11

Webber's Bad Luck..... Helmut Marko

#35 lbennie

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 00:09

2010


Came off his mountain bike while leading the championship, and broke his shoulder, causing a slight decline in performance.

Some would call that self inflicted though :p



#36 LoudHoward

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 01:00

I think Mark often doesn't bounce back from "bad luck" as well as he should, or as others can. He lacks a couple of tenths off the top guys most of the time so that's probably all there is to it. To be blunt, he just set the record for the most consecutive races without a mechanical DNF, and while he does have his fair share of car niggles, he's hardly going through anything like he experienced in 2006-7, THAT was bad luck.

#37 ViMaMo

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 01:20

Red Bull are really clever and people don't notice. Where are the delusional fans?

Edited by ViMaMo, 19 March 2013 - 01:23.


#38 MarileneRiddle

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 01:20

I think it would be good to have a more detailed analysis of the gap of all cars and drivers who got pole and stayed there after 2 laps. I would guess that it is more driver than car related.

On the topic "unlucky Webber" in general, I think while he has lots of issues, he is not more unlucky than his team mate. In 2010, he lost much less points than Vettel. In 2011 I don't really know - Vettel lost points at the end when it didn't matter much for the WDC. In 2012, Vettel had more issues in the first half and Webber in the second half. In the past few years, I don't think Webber had a season like Vettel in 2010 or Hamilton in 2012. In addition, Vettel sometimes doesn't even speak about problems.

I think we concentrate on Webber's bad luck more on a whole because it visibly affects him. Like a bad start would go on to ruin his race (Abu Dhabi 2012), or a bad practice session would end up affecting his qualifying session (Abu Dhabi 2010). Therefore when KERS failures occur at the start of the race, he would usually go on to have a bad race.

In contrast Sebastian often manages to salvage quite a bit and come good anyway (Brazil 2011), therefore we often miss out on his misfortune. Added on is the fact that Sebastian rarely talks about the team letting him down at all (in Brazil 2011 he mentions the gearbox failure but quickly breezes over the reliability issue and instead concentrates on the experience of driving with the missing gear). Therefore, we often have the impression that there is nothing wrong with his car when it may not be the case.

At times Red Bull's reliability is so frustrating, I think about creating a thread about how unlucky Sebastian had been with mechanical failures and reliability issues. But then I know haters will say it is just the trade of for an imaginary 1-5 seconds advantage over the rest of the field, so I rather save myself from the trolling. At least Webber (being the underdog) will get more sympathy. :lol:

#39 exmayol

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 01:24

webber does have way more problems than vettel. some guys just break stuff. i used to work with a girl that fried computers on a regular basis.


Pics of the girl or permaban!

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#40 plumtree

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 01:42

This season alone since the launch

Vettel: ECU, hydraulic issue, loose wheelnut (Barcelona), KERS (FP2), sensor (FP3), No telemetry (start)
Webber: No telemetry + KERS (start and the first half)

I see Red Bull deliberately make Vettel work through all the minor stuffs when it doesn't matter*. So while in reality heavily sabotaging Webber on Sunday, they can claim it's just bad luck. They should know people don't remember whatever happened to Vettel though.

*Actually things seem to keep happening to him in the last few races. Lost valuable time of FP3 in Sao Paulo and FP2 in Austin, the infamous fuel-pump issue in Abu Dhabi

As for Mark's slow pitstop, I hope people give the mechanics a break. That was the first ever real pitstop with the new release system and we've seen such changes could cause even bigger troubles before they fully got used to it.

Edited by plumtree, 19 March 2013 - 06:58.


#41 ThomFi

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 03:54

If you compare the amount of mechanical DNF's of both drivers since they are teammates at Red Bull, Vettel was hit even harder.

Vettel :
2009: Hungary (suspension), Valencia (engine)
2010: Australia (wheel nut), Korea (engine)
2011: Abu Dhabi (tyre)
2012: Valencia (alternator), Monza (alternator)

Webber:
2009 Singapore (brakes)
2012: US (alternator)


#42 V3TT3L

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 04:09

If you compare the amount of mechanical DNF's of both drivers since they are teammates at Red Bull, Vettel was hit even harder.

Vettel :
2009: Hungary (suspension), Valencia (engine)
2010: Australia (wheel nut), Korea (engine)
2011: Abu Dhabi (tyre)
2012: Valencia (alternator), Monza (alternator), Yas Marina (Fuel Catcher in Qual->Grid Penalty)

Webber:
2009 Singapore (brakes)
2012: US (alternator)



#43 launchcontrol

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 05:14

As Webber says "Helmut Marko has an agenda", perhaps?


Exactly. He is just doing his job. What other job does he have other than undermine every threat to Vettel? Has there ever been someone like him in a team in the past, who is so shamelessly partisan to one driver who has no other job other than to do everything he can to publicly undermine his team mate, who co incidentally keeps having mysterious and consistent KERS and clutch issues? Its an utter disgrace. Other teams are accused of driver favouritism yet do not even approach this level of partisanship.

#44 caso

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 05:21

It seems like Webber has to deal with small and nagging problems more often than the average driver. Especially his KERS is very fragile. In this aspect he is unlucky.

But on the other hand his car seldomly breaks down during races. Two mechanical failures in four seasons is remarkable. So, is/was he unlucky or not? Overall, I think good and bad luck were balanced.

Edited by caso, 19 March 2013 - 20:15.


#45 Eff One 2002

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 05:24

He has WAY too much unreliablility it has to be said, yes.

#46 lbennie

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 05:54

Also, i'm not sure it has been discussed on here yet, but Mark gave an interview before the race on Aus TV, that both him and seb had asked for more testing time be allocated to both starts and the start systems as well over the winter, but were knocked back.

Seems like a silly decision to me.





#47 Shiroo

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 06:12

It seems like Webber has to deal with small and nagging problems more often than the average driver. Especially his KERS is very fragile. In this aspect he is unlucky.

But on the other hand his car seldomly breaks down during a race. Two mechanical failures in four seasons is remarkable. So, is/was he unlucky or not? Overall, I think good and bad luck were balanced.

I would prefer to have more DNFs but working KERS every race. So I could challenge for wins, not lose 7 positions at start and then finish at 5-8.
It is better to have 1x DNF and 1x podium finish than 2x 7 or so.

#48 HoldenRT

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 06:17

Webber used to be really unlucky in 2006-2008 but it's seemed to balance out a lot in the last few seasons.

Except for the KERS issue.. it's a problem that hurts Redbull more since they rarely have good straight line speed at the best of times.. and on durable tyres it wasn't as much of an issue but on softer fragile tyres.. you want to push harder to compensate and that just makes the tyres worse.

You'd think they could get on top of KERS by now.. other than that.. I don't think he is that unlucky these days. KERS wise, I think he is though.

#49 caso

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 06:37

I would prefer to have more DNFs but working KERS every race. So I could challenge for wins, not lose 7 positions at start and then finish at 5-8.
It is better to have 1x DNF and 1x podium finish than 2x 7 or so.


But he doesn't only lose positions at the start when his car is compromised, does he? How do we know what is due to a technical issue and what due to him?
And a working KERS for every race is certainly something every driver wants. :)

Edited by caso, 19 March 2013 - 06:43.


#50 mark f1

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 06:47

I'm missing where it says that Vettel didn't also have telemetry at the start, I have only seen references to Webber. Anyone able to point me to a source?

Cheers