196 replies to this topic

[barrykin]

A 1954 Mercedes-Benz W196 -- ex-Juan Manuel Fangio -- will be offered at this year's Bonhams Goodwood auction. We hesitate to even guess on the estimate.

http://www.sportscar...onhams-goodwood

[Tim Murray]

There are a few questionable statements in that Bonhams blurb.

[kayemod]

Where has that car been hiding all these years ?

[arttidesco]

Gosh ! I bet Bonham's Goodwood FoS catalogue sales are up this year, I might have to reconsider my plans for going myself

[BRG]

There are a few questionable statements in that Bonhams blurb.

Question them , then. It's what we are all waiting for!

[barrykin]

Where has that car been hiding all these years ?

Who owns the W196? Bernie??

[hillsprint]

Where has that car been hiding all these years ?

Did Mercedes give it to Fangio ?

[Tim Murray]

It's the car given/loaned by DB to the National Motor Museum at Beaulieu which they then controversially sold to Anthony Bamford, from whom it went to Jacky Setton, Friedhelm Loh and was then rumoured to be somewhere in the Middle East.


(Edited to correct typos)

Edited by Tim Murray, 19 March 2013 - 10:24.

[Bloggsworth]

If it's the Beaulieu one, I sat in it some 50 or more years ago - Well I did until some jobsworth came up and turfed me out...

[scags]

Time to round up the loose change.

[arttidesco]

It's the car given/loaned by DB to the National Motor Museum at Beaulieu which they then controversially sold to Anthony Bamford, from whom it went to Jacky Seton, Friedholm Loh and was then rumoured to be somewhere in the Middle East.

Is this the one you told me about that MB won't give any technical help for to run the car Tim ?

[Doug Nye]

Good evening, chaps. Just back from the reveal. This is an item whose quality, context and charisma far exceeds mere motor sport.
Perhaps - since I have been hands-on for a month or so - I can assist with any queries?

DCN

[Ray Bell]

How did M-B stand with the sale of this car by the museum?

Was the car loaned or given? Are Daimler-Benz likely to stir the air by claiming some right to the car?

I'm sure that anyone bidding the kind of money that will be proffered at this auction will be checking out these points!

Edited by Ray Bell, 19 March 2013 - 03:30.

[packapoo]

Now THAT'S a Mercedes F1 machine I can relate to.

[Tim Murray]

Question them , then. It's what we are all waiting for!

Sorry, I missed this earlier. I disagree with these statements:

The car’s innovative W196 design also marked the successful introduction to Formula 1 of the following technologies:
 All-independent suspension
 Multi-tubular ‘spaceframe’ lightweight chassis design
 Power take-off from the centre of the engine’s long 8-cylinder crankshaft to minimize vibration

(the power take-off point may be technically correct if applied to ‘Formula 1’ but ignores earlier cars such as the Alfa Romeo Tipo B ‘P3’)

This Swiss victory was Fangio’s third in four Grand Prix races, and assured him of his second Drivers’ World Championship title.

(again, this is correct as written, but misleadingly ignores Fangio’s Maserati wins; he’d actually won six out of the last seven World Championship GPs)

Is this the one you told me about that MB won't give any technical help for to run the car Tim ?

Not me Ralph - if this is the case I didn't know about it.

Edited by Tim Murray, 19 March 2013 - 06:10.

[Ray Bell]

The Tipo B had a central power takeoff from the crank?

I didn't realise that...

[Tim Murray]

And the BRM?

The Bonhams blurb specifies 'successful'.

[Doug Nye]

...again, this is correct as written...

Umm - isn't that the point?

DCN

[Tim Murray]

Not, IMHO, if it's written so as to mislead those who don't know the facts. Here's an excellent example of misleading truth, as posted recently in the Paddock Club jokes thread:

Psychology of Marketing
An interoffice softball game was held every year between the marketing and support staff of one company.
The support staff whipped the marketing department soundly.
To show just how the marketing department earns their keep, they posted this memo on the bulletin board after the game:
"The Marketing Department is pleased to announce that for this year's softball season, we came in 2nd place, having lost but one game all year. The Support Department, however, had a rather dismal season, as they won only one game."

I'm not saying the Bonhams blurb is anywhere near as misleading, but I don't understand why it couldn't have given Fangio the credit he deserves for winning six out of seven WC GP races.

[Roger Clark]

The Tipo B had a central power takeoff from the crank?

I didn't realise that...

All the Jano 8-cylinder Alfas had central power takeoff.

[Allan Lupton]

Quote:
The car’s innovative W196 design also marked the successful introduction to Formula 1 of the following technologies:
Fuel-injected engine Yes
All-independent suspension What about the Alfa 158?
Multi-tubular ‘spaceframe’ lightweight chassis design
All-round inboard-mounted brakes Probably
The in-line or ‘straight-8’ engine ‘lay-down’ configuration to minimize the car’s overall height Not Formula 1 or straight-8 but the 1905 Grand Prix Wolseley "Beetle" got there first
Power take-off from the centre of the engine’s long 8-cylinder crankshaft to minimize vibration I think BRM has this as its V16 had a"8-cylinder" crankshaft

All the Jano 8-cylinder Alfas had central power takeoff.

No, they just drove camshafts and blowers centrally

Edited by Allan Lupton, 19 March 2013 - 09:03.

[275 GTB-4]

breathtaking stuff...

http://news.sky.com/...-up-for-auction

[Ray Bell]

With regard to the crank centre power take-off...

Yes, the BRM did have this, not because it was an 8-cylinder crank but for the same reason as Mercedes did it... to reduce torsional loads on the crank and also harmonic problems.

[Alan Cox]

http://news.sky.com/...-up-for-auction

Surely Robert Brooks didn't really say: "It's been stored in a warehouse and largely forgotten about for nearly 30 years," - I distinctly remember seeing Willie Green driving it at a Monaco Historique in the early 2000s, and I'm sure it also ran at the FoS that same year. (Edit: Possibly not the FoS)

Edited by Alan Cox, 19 March 2013 - 10:11.

[Tony Matthews]

breathtaking stuff...

http://news.sky.com/...-up-for-auction

It looks just like it did when I photographed it at Beaulieu in 1981. The body was so fragile (they said) that they refused to remove it, and I had to do much crawling around underneath to get information for a cutaway. My illustration is, therefore, not as detailed as I would have liked.

[Scuderia CC]

In July 1990 the Grand Prix car Mercedes-Benz W196 #000 06 was sold to the French collector Jacky Setton by the intermediary of Edgar Bensoussan of "British Motors" in Paris. The price of this sale was $20,000,000, information comes from Edgar Bensoussan itself. A few years later Jacky Setton resold the W196 #000 06 with the German collector Friedhelm Loh.

Doug Nye answered this on autosport forum on this sale :

"I think that this Mercedes-Benz W196 remains the most expensive car sold to date - having cost Setton the then equivalent of some £13-million Sterling, which netted the previous owner something like £11.7-million profit! I believe Setton took a considerable loss financially when he eventually sold the car on to Loh - and it has now been sold on yet again....this time vanishing into (or adjacent to) Saudi Arabia...."

Edited by Scuderia CC, 19 March 2013 - 10:07.

[Peter Morley]

Bonhams says: ""It's been stored in a warehouse and largely forgotten about for nearly 30 years".

I couldn't find that on the Bonhams blurb, but it sounds like confusion with the former Samsung chairman's pre-war Mercedes that sat in Frankfurt for many years with his Auto-Union and other cars due to problems importing them into Korea.

Edit: Just seen that story on the Sky website, somewhat different to what Bonhams are saying and who do we trust, but they are quoting Robert Brooks which is rather confusing - the car in those photos certainly looks remarkably untouched and rather different to most Monaco historic entries (I've not found any pics of Loh's car at Monaco to compare).

000 06 (the car mentioned by Bonhams) is pretty well known since many people were shocked to hear that the guy who bought it from Beaulieu sold it for ten times what he had paid.

If it makes a fortune, will it remain the only one to have escaped captivity - one of the Biscaretti, Indianapolis or Vienna museums might be tempted in the same way as Beaulieu was?

Edited by Peter Morley, 19 March 2013 - 10:26.

[Ray Bell]

Indeed, the body has differences...

I'd suggest that the intake manifolding changed between 1954 and 1955 and the bodywork had to be changed to cope with that... it could still be the same car, however.

[Tom Glowacki]

Good evening, chaps. Just back from the reveal. This is an item whose quality, context and charisma far exceeds mere motor sport.
Perhaps - since I have been hands-on for a month or so - I can assist with any queries?

DCN

Will they take personal checks? (cheques, to you)

[Alan Cox]

I couldn't find that on the Bonhams blurb,

It's a quote from the Sky News link posted by 275GTB-4, Peter.
Here is Willie at Monaco 2000. The car never succeeded in firing on all eight cylinders for the whole weekend

Edited by Alan Cox, 20 March 2013 - 19:46.

[Doug Nye]

Also, the car in the picture with Fangio on board -it seems the 'Ring - in the Sky News link above, does not look the same car as depicted. The bodywork is different in several parts.

Car 00006/54 is pictured in its original 1954 German and Swiss GP-winning form. Driven by Hans Herrmann it later finished fourth in the 1954 Italian GP and then retired from the 1954 Spanish GP. The car was not deployed again until the 1955 Italian GP when it ran second driven by Karl Kling, and wore the 1955 body form in which it has survived to this day - lacking the 1954-style scuttle air intake, with reprofiled nose-top induction scoop and with a proper metal three-pointed star badge on its nose, instead of what appears previously to have been in effect just a two-dimensional star transfer.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 19 March 2013 - 10:50.

[Alan Cox]

Edit: Just seen that story on the Sky website, somewhat different to what Bonhams are saying and who do we trust, but they are quoting Robert Brooks which is rather confusing - the car in those photos certainly looks remarkably untouched and rather different to most Monaco historic entries (I've not found any pics of Loh's car at Monaco to compare)

I have to say that it was pretty scruffy when it ran at Monaco - it appears rather smarter in my photos than it was in real life.

[kayemod]

I have to say that it was pretty scruffy when it ran at Monaco - it appears rather smarter in my photos than it was in real life.

I don't doubt it, but that's the Mercedes Benz/Audi way isn't it? The 1930s replicas and reconstructions we see most years at the FoS appear to have come off a current S Klasse/A8 assembly line, perfect panel beating, paint and all. They don't bear much resemblance to the cars that actually raced in period.

[Alan Cox]

I don't doubt it, but that's the Mercedes Benz/Audi way isn't it? The 1930s replicas and reconstructions we see most years at the FoS appear to have come off a current S Klasse/A8 assembly line, perfect panel beating, paint and all. They don't bear much resemblance to the cars that actually raced in period.

It just appeared to have the patina of a car which was never destined to race again - i.e. just as it had left Beaulieu.

[Peter Morley]

I have to say that it was pretty scruffy when it ran at Monaco - it appears rather smarter in my photos than it was in real life.

It is amazing how photos can flatter, it certainly looks much smarter in your Monaco photos than in the Sky ones.
But it would certainly seem to be the same car, so the barn find story appears to smell of male cow output.

Given what it looks like under the bonnet it is hardly surprising it didn't run well, it would take a certain amount of courage (backed by a large piggy bank) to run such an unprepared car.

As Regazzoni says restored cars are no longer genuinely original, but it is possible to find a balance - e.g. keep the bodywork original and rebuild the mechanicals (without modernising them) and if the original bodywork is too fragile then replace it and preserve the original (of course while you're at it you could do the same with the chassis, engine, gearbox, suspension etc - as one previous owner of this Mercedes apparently does with a Ferrari).

[Peter Morley]

I don't doubt it, but that's the Mercedes Benz/Audi way isn't it? The 1930s replicas and reconstructions we see most years at the FoS appear to have come off a current S Klasse/A8 assembly line, perfect panel beating, paint and all. They don't bear much resemblance to the cars that actually raced in period.

And they're not the worst - I doubt that Ferrari Classiche are Italy's largest consumers of body filler but they would be if they were working to original standards.

[arttidesco]

Sorry, I missed this earlier. I disagree with these statements:

Not me Ralph - if this is the case I didn't know about it.

Apologies Tim, not sure who it was who mentioned that MB were unwilling to give technical assistance

Here is Willie at Monaco 2000. The car never succeeded in firing on all eight cylinders for the whole weekend

but judging by Alan's comments about the car not running properly all weekend at Monaco, 0006/54 is most likely the car that was in question.

Lovely photo's as always Alan

Edited by arttidesco, 19 March 2013 - 13:29.

[simonlewisbooks]

On the subject of MB panel-bashing then - vs - now.... here's the louvres on a 1937 W125 bonnett... in 1937... Not quite the standard we see at Goodwood these days.

[kayemod]

On the subject of MB panel-bashing then - vs - now.... here's the louvres on a 1937 W125 bonnett... in 1937... Not quite the standard we see at Goodwood these days.;)

As has been mentioned in other threads, beautifully crafted and engineered, but only where they needed to be.

[simonlewisbooks]

As has been mentioned in other threads, beautifully crafted and engineered, but only where they needed to be.

True and not accurately represented by the cars we see these days, to my eye at least.
Racing cars forged in the heat of battle look so much more interesting than those 'restored' by micrometer decades later...

[Alan Cox]

I distinctly remember seeing Willie Green driving it at a Monaco Historique in the early 2000s, and I'm sure it also ran at the FoS that same year. (Edit: Possibly not the FoS)

Sorry, my mistake, 00006/54 actually appeared at the 1999 Festival of Speed, entered by Friedhelm Loh and driven by Willie Green. Again, it didn't run well.

[karlcars]

As usual the TNF expertise has revealed the truth behind the appearance of this car for auction.

The level of information anout the car's significance and the explanation provided by Bonhams can only be described as deplorable. Let's hope that the catalogue text does more justice to the car and the occasion.

Just one point: the open-wheeled bodywork is not the result of a request from Fangio. It was always planned to have both bodies to suit different courses but they just didn't have time to make them until the 'Ring race. Obviously they would have liked them to be ready for Silverstone where Fangio went barrel-bashing.

[Robin Fairservice]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Here is the W196 at the old Beaulieu car museum in 1959

[Alan Cox]

Is this the same car, Robin? I am intrigued because the car being offered for sale carries the race number "12", which has, clearly, been applied quite some time ago. I note from Michael Reidner's book on the W196 that the Beaulieu W196 wasn't given to the museum until 1973.

[Doug Nye]

The car as presented to the press in London last night.

















DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 19 March 2013 - 23:09.

[Tony Matthews]

Is this the same car, Robin? I am intrigued because the car being offered for sale carries the race number "12", which has, clearly, been applied quite some time ago. I note from Michael Reidner's book on the W196 that the Beaulieu W196 wasn't given to the museum until 1973.

It was #12 in 1981...

[Robin Fairservice]

Is this the same car, Robin? I am intrigued because the car being offered for sale carries the race number "12", which has, clearly, been applied quite some time ago. I note from Michael Reidner's book on the W196 that the Beaulieu W196 wasn't given to the museum until 1973.

I couldn't answer that. All I know is that was the car when we were there in 1959. Is there any history of that museum, or early catalogues?

[Tim Murray]

In July 1972 Motor magazine did a feature to mark the opening of the new National Motor Museum. This included a list of all the display vehicles and their owners. The W196 is listed as owned by Daimler-Benz AG. Unfortunately there's no photo of the car, so the number it wore at that time can't be checked.

Edited by Tim Murray, 19 March 2013 - 18:53.

[rudi]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Here is the W196 at the old Beaulieu car museum in 1959

Until 1973 the car at Beaulieu was 014 which was then taken back by MB and 006 was given in exchange.
Story in the Sugahara book.

[275 GTB-4]

On the subject of MB panel-bashing then - vs - now.... here's the louvres on a 1937 W125 bonnett... in 1937... Not quite the standard we see at Goodwood these days.;)

Thank goodness...this car is reported as being in original condition as it left the track....I can just see the mechanics using the louvres to gain purchase on the engine cover as they ripped it off to service the engine.