196 replies to this topic

[Doug Nye]

In my view this thread is not witnessing any argument...

DCN

[bradbury west]

Which is precisely why I did not bother to make any comments earlier in what clearly had the makings of a circular argument.
RL

Please read as "discussion"
RL

[Doug Nye]

And please appreciate that nobody I have contacted involved with either the NMM or Daimler-Benz can recall ANY involvement with a court of law in connection with this car's sale from Beaulieu to Bamford. None whatsoever.

DCN

[Bloggsworth]

What is not absolutely clear about the following statement:

This 1973 donation was absolutely confirmed to me by Daimler-Benz, in Stuttgart, last week, and D-B is being extremely supportive of Bonhams' forthcoming sale of the car by auction at Goodwood.

[Mal9444]

And please appreciate that nobody I have contacted involved with either the NMM or Daimler-Benz can recall ANY involvement with a court of law in connection with this car's sale from Beaulieu to Bamford. None whatsoever.

DCN

The above, coupled with Doug's earlier statement about confirmation from Stuttgart, would appear to clear-up, clarify and settle the entire business. The alledged 'unauthorised sale' of the car by Beaulieu - which story has been floating around for some time in some circles: I heard of it first several years ago from someone connected with the Museum who told me about it and refuted it in the same conversation - would appear to be one of those mysterious Urban Myths that somehow gain currency and, eventually, the reputation of being fact.

Thank you.

[Doug Nye]

At last - reality is grasped. But it is snowing again outside as I drip into my handkerchief thanks to a lousy cold probably contracted on the flight to Stuttgart... Bercedes-Benz botor cars bound.

DCN

[Simon Thomas]

At last - reality is grasped. But it is snowing again outside as I drip into my handkerchief thanks to a lousy cold probably contracted on the flight to Stuttgart... Bercedes-Benz botor cars bound.

DCN

I have enjoyed reading this thread but I still have some questions, though not about the process of the sale by Beaulieu. After the car was sold by them it was subsequently sold for a vast profit, were there any questions asked about the under valuation at the time of sale? Secondly the car was raced by Willie Green at Monaco where it was reported it did not run on all cylinders, the car is a fantastic timepiece of that there is no doubt but if it were mine I would want to drive it for personal satisfaction but not race it. Will the car be devalued or loose it's "barnfind" appeal by being mechanically rebuilt and if so by whom? Did Romulus loose it's unique character when Bill Morris drove it?
Just some thoughts.
Simon Thomas

[Doug Nye]

Will the car be devalued or loose it's "barnfind" appeal by being mechanically rebuilt and if so by whom? Did Romulus loose it's unique character when Bill Morris drove it?
Just some thoughts.
Simon Thomas

From my viewpoint the basic answers to these two questions are NO and YES. Daimler-Benz are the only outfit with real W196 experience to rebuild the car mechanically, with the added cachet for a new owner of the original manufacturer having done the job...

DCN

[Simon Thomas]

From my viewpoint the basic answers to these two questions are NO and YES. Daimler-Benz are the only outfit with real W196 experience to rebuild the car mechanically, with the added cachet for a new owner of the original manufacturer having done the job...

DCN

So my final question, why have MB not rebuilt the car before now to run as intended for the current private owner? It could then have been offered at auction as a runner?
Simon Thomas

[Doug Nye]

Public question.
Private matter.

DCN

[Lee Nicolle]

I very much doubt that MB is any better qualified to maintain/ rebuild those cars than any top quality resto shop. They last raced the cars in the 50s and all the hands on people are long retired.
Though they may be a source of information on specifications on parts that need to be remade. Presuming the records have been kept.Which most manufacturers have not. Within reason these days anything can be remade providing the original is there to start with. Which this car seems to be.

[Doug Nye]

Lee - sorry, but that is entirely wrong. While D-B Classic's running W196 uses the 3-litre SLR-type engine they have massive documentation and technical records for the type and their present generation of mechanics are not only well schooled by their immediate predecessors, but feel genuinely proud and privileged to be working with these cars. I have no doubt they have their weaknesses, where C&G for example probably now have more recent roller-bearing know-how across a broad spectrum, but blithe talk of "any top quality resto shop" being as well qualified is nonsense. But a former Chief Engineer of D-B saw fit to scrap many surviving contemporary spares, because he needed the storage space. A rare lapse. But a major one.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 08 April 2013 - 08:40.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
.....A rare lapse. But a major one.

I do hope your code is improving, Doug...

Another point Lee doesn't seem to understand:

Originally posted by Lee Nicolle
.....Presuming the records have been kept. Which most manufacturers have not.....

Mercedes-Benz (or Daimler-Benz... or Daimler) are not 'most manufacturers'... they do keep records in the Germanic fashion.

Remember, Lee, we are talking about a nation that kept records of their atrocities in WW2 to the point that it was their own records that convicted many of their leaders. And with regard to this model, Stirling Moss wrote in The Design and Behaviour of the Racing Car:

But who would have thought that so small a change would make so large a difference; who but Mercedes-Benz would have taken two cars and four drivers to find out; and who but Mercedes-Benz could turn up the figures from their records nearly eight years after they were put into them?

He was talking here about a test at the Nurburgring where drivers tried both short and medium wheelbase cars to see which would be quickest on that circuit. The difference in wheelbase was just 2.5 inches, the lap times of all drivers in both cars are published in the book.

[GD66]

I very much doubt that MB is any better qualified to maintain/ rebuild those cars than any top quality resto shop. They last raced the cars in the 50s and all the hands on people are long retired.

[kayemod]

Mercedes-Benz (or Daimler-Benz... or Daimler) are not 'most manufacturers'... they do keep records in the Germanic fashion.

Mercedes are indeed a remarkable company, and it isn't only records that they keep assiduously. I own one fairly new one, but my next door neighbour currently possesses no fewer than six. The youngest of these is about 25 years old, and the oldest maybe 50, all in running order and most used regularly. The local dealer who looks after mine has never once failed to produce any needed parts for any of his collection of MB oldies, sometimes quite obscure items, they have a dedicated section for such enquiries. Prices for these parts have been surprisingly reasonable, and I bet there aren't many other car manufacturers who are willing or able to provide a service like this for their older products. I rather doubt they could offer very much support for any W196 owners, but there always seem to be one or two 300SLs around the place when I've visited them.

[funformula]

But a former Chief Engineer of D-B saw fit to scrap many surviving contemporary spares, because he needed the storage space. A rare lapse. But a major one.

There were times when the glorious racing history wasn´t so highly regarded at DB than it is today.
For an example they scrapped the unique race transporter from the 50´s after it was used for inside factory transport purposes for some time. They didn´t see the importance and the value of the car and perhaps it´s value was near zero back in these days. It was just an old and somewhat unpractical vehicle which no one was interested in.

Edited by funformula, 08 April 2013 - 10:35.

[Andywillis]

A fantastic article in June 2013 Octane magazine on the Mercedes W196, the photos are just incredible, what an amazing piece of equipment. It truly demonstrates the single minded mentality that went in to the design and operation of these cars, which enabled them to dominate during their short competition lives. With a little bit of sympathetic preservation work, chassis 00006/54 will be fit to grace the stage of any major event or Museum, hopefully the new owner will be the type that prefers to show it off rather than hide it away! AW

[rl1856]

In retrospect doesn't that make you want to cry for RAI and their Scarab project? If they'd only had the promised power in period it could at least have earned respect within Formula 1. Such a bold and brave effort, just missed the boat by being months too late and short on development.

DCN

Indeed...all of this came to light in an article published about 10yrs ago, entitled "We could of run with them!" The salient point was that between blueprints and assembly, a crucial dimension was misread. The mistake was recorded by the mechanics and designer as correct, and then incorporated into subsiquent procedures. According the article, the mistake caused the camshafts to be installed incorrectly. When the mistake was corrected, the engine immediately gave 35hp more than it ever did in period. Wonder what they could have done with an additional 35hp, which would have represented at least a 15% improvement ?

Best,

Ross

[Ralf Pickel]

Sold for £19,601,500 inc. premium !!

[paulhooft]

Total Nonsens !!

Sold for £19,601,500 inc. premium !!

[B Squared]

Autoweek link:

http://www.autoweek...._medium=twitter

[Guido22]

A private russian buyer I have reason to believe

[JtP1]

A private russian buyer I have reason to believe

Thought they had loads of old rusty MB products lying about circa 41- 44.

[raceannouncer2003]

Sold for £19,601,500 inc. premium !!

Darn ! I bid GBP18,000,000 and someone beat me at the last second ! I hate it when that happens

I wonder what 722 would go for.

I have a 1/24 Merit W196 signed by Fangio, Moss, and Herrmann. Must be worth something.

Vince H.

Edited by raceannouncer2003, 12 July 2013 - 18:23.

[paulhooft]

19.000.000 /24?: There may be some idiot may be willing tol pay that??????

Darn ! I bid GBP18,000,000 and someone beat me at the last second ! I hate it when that happens

I wonder what 722 would go for.

I have a 1/24 Merit W196 signed by Fangio, Moss, and Herrmann. Must be worth something.

Vince H.

Edited by paulhooft, 12 July 2013 - 18:43.

[Sharman]

It means we aren't going to see it on the circuits!

[LittleChris]

So that's Lewis, Nico, Ross & Paddy's salaries sorted for the season then.

[Wirra]

Shall I compare thee to a summer's day, or a GTO.

If a GTO can get 20m GBPs I can't see why this wouldn't do the same, if not more. ...

If only I could pick the share market with such accuracy.

[LittleChris]

A private russian buyer I have reason to believe

Can you elucidate ?

[GMACKIE]

And whilst you are at it, how about some more information?

[john ruston]

The new owner has spent a pile of dosh and it was being sold by a family who have even more dosh.
They will do what they want with it and so they should as they have had the balls to spend the money.

Pointless racing it as it wouldn't be competitive but great if they do.

Probably be in a private collection and we may not see it again.

Who knows.

[P0wderf1nger]

Some shots of the car - and the distinctive transporter leant by Stuttgart - in the Bonham's tent on Thursday morning. DCN can be seen in the background of the first transporter shot.

Rgds

Paul

Edited by P0wderf1nger, 14 July 2013 - 17:08.

[Gary C]

er.....................I don't see any pics

Edited by Gary C, 14 July 2013 - 16:58.

[P0wderf1nger]

er.....................I don't see any pics

Thanks, Gary. I think I've just demonstrated that dropbox isn't idiot-proof after all.

No idea what I did - the FoS thread photos were fine...

[Tim Murray]

No problem where I'm sitting - they were all there when I first looked at them a few hours ago, and they're still all there now.

Edited by Tim Murray, 14 July 2013 - 17:21.

[P0wderf1nger]

No problem where I'm sitting - they're all there.

Post-edit, Tim, at 1808.

[Allan Lupton]

Trust The Times to have the last word on Saturday:
The Mercedes-Benz contains many features that were innovative in the 1950s, including a fuel-injected engine, lightweight chassis and all-round brakes.

[FrankB]

All-round brakes... far more effective than the square ones every other car had up until then?

[kayemod]

Trust The Times to have the last word on Saturday:
The Mercedes-Benz contains many features that were innovative in the 1950s, including a fuel-injected engine, lightweight chassis and all-round brakes.

You must have got hold of the restricted circulation 'Pedant-Irritation' edition Allan, in my copy the line reads quite clearly: "The Mercedes-Benz contains many features that were innovative in the 1950s, including a fuel-injected engine, lightweight chassis, and all-round inboard-mounted brakes".

[Doug Nye]

In the Sky commentary on the German GP Martin Brundle predicted excitedly that the Red Bull Team was about to be punished for "unsafe relief".

It happens....

DCN

[kayemod]

In the Sky commentary on the German GP Martin Brundle predicted excitedly that the Red Bull Team was about to be punished for "unsafe relief".

It happens....

DCN

You're clearly missing the old 'Blood Pressure' thread Doug, but there is a genuine connection between the last two posts. Many of us would be delighted if the Red Bull No. 1 driver's index finger was "internally mounted"...

[Stephen W]

Trust The Times to have the last word on Saturday:
The Mercedes-Benz contains many features that were innovative in the 1950s, including a fuel-injected engine, lightweight chassis and all-round brakes.

All-round brakes... far more effective than the square ones every other car had up until then?

You must have got hold of the restricted circulation 'Pedant-Irritation' edition Allan, in my copy the line reads quite clearly: "The Mercedes-Benz contains many features that were innovative in the 1950s, including a fuel-injected engine, lightweight chassis, and all-round inboard-mounted brakes".

Not to be confused with the Swiss team who fitted triangular brakes to their Maseratis!

[Catalina Park]

Not to be confused with the Swiss team who fitted triangular brakes to their Maseratis!

They work so good they had to warn the car behind them.

[arttidesco]

Stop it !

[Ray Bell]

Couldn't you have stood back further and used a tele lens?

Now we have to ask what the VW hat is all about!

[GMACKIE]

Couldn't you have stood back further and used a tele lens?

Now we have to ask what the VW hat is all about!

I had to go and make sure mine hadn't been nicked.

[JoBo]

You're clearly missing the old 'Blood Pressure' thread Doug, but there is a genuine connection between the last two posts. Many of us would be delighted if the Red Bull No. 1 driver's index finger was "internally mounted"...

Seems that you have your emotions under control, ....always! Geeee....

JoBo