169 replies to this topic

[launchcontrol]

Soon Horner will need to replace Mark Webber, as the 36-year-old Australian enters the autumn of his career, and it is little surprise to learn that he regards Hamilton as too mercurial to be considered as a potential replacement.
“Lewis is a fantastically quick driver and he has expressed interest in driving for the team in the past. But it wouldn’t have been right for the team. I have great admiration for the talent he has but I don’t think Lewis and Sebastian would be the right combination.”

So Redbull had the opportunity to hire one of the best drivers to emerge in decades and form a super team yet they chose to keep their almost 40 year old driver who has been consistently mediocre for years. Right combination? What does that mean? He is certainly not referring to on track results which would be stunning with arguably the fastest driver in the sport joining the team.

I find this extraordinary and Horner's excuse does not cut it. There would be too much tension and internal team conflict? I was under the impression F1 was not a social club but a sport utterly focused and dedicated on winning and results, and hiring Hamilton would have greatly boosted the teams results regardless if they were still getting by with Webber just enough to scrape home with titles. Was this really the reason or is the truth they simply did not want to upset Vettel and risk their golden boy being beaten by Lewis Hamilton?

I think it just proves that their only priority is Vettel even to long term detriment of the team. Not enough has been made of this unbelievable team decision.

Edited to add link to source: http://www.telegraph...ll-partner.html

[FigJam]

It's Vettels team. No chance they will recruit a gun racer who could upstage their boy.

Why else is Webber there? He's a safe number 2, everyone knows it. Just nobody talks about it.

[rasul]

It's logical. Why change the winning team? 3WDCs and 3WCCs. It can't get better than that, so Lewis would bring nothing to RB.

Edited by rasul, 19 March 2013 - 06:25.

[launchcontrol]

It's logical. Why change the winning team? 3WDCs and 3WCCs. It can't get better than that, so Lewis would bring nothing to RB.

Webber is near retirement, what happens after that? Hamilton would win more races, more dominance, I thought that kind of stuff was priority for a team? Now they have lost Lewis forever, who will they get next?

[Myrvold]

Webber is near retirement, what happens after that? Hamilton would win more races, more dominance, I thought that kind of stuff was priority for a team? Now they have lost Lewis forever, who will they get next?

Ricciardo, Vergne, Bianchi, Kobayashi, Sutil, Button (depending on McLarens form), Hulkenberg. There are many drivers that would do a good job in that second Red Bull!

[rasul]

Webber is near retirement, what happens after that? Hamilton would win more races, more dominance, I thought that kind of stuff was priority for a team? Now they have lost Lewis forever, who will they get next?

I'm sure there are many good drivers who would be more than happy to take Mark's place. Mark's replacement doesn't even need to be a top driver -- they already have Vettel to fight for WDC(and he proved that he can be relied on).

[launchcontrol]

Ricciardo, Vergne, Bianchi, Kobayashi, Sutil, Button (depending on McLarens form), Hulkenberg. There are many drivers that would do a good job in that second Red Bull!

They are unproven nothings.

[majkel]

They are unproven nothings.

In oposition to blessed Lewis Hamilton? Some of them are hardly unproven.

Edited by majkel, 19 March 2013 - 06:43.

[seahawk]

And so a perfect No.2.

[Dipster]

It's Vettels team. No chance they will recruit a gun racer who could upstage their boy.

Why else is Webber there? He's a safe number 2, everyone knows it. Just nobody talks about it.

Perhaps a silly question from one who does not follow F1 avidly.

Why bother with a number 2 driver at all if he is not up to it? Is it an obligation to do so?

Edited by Dipster, 19 March 2013 - 06:47.

[nomi]

If this year Romain can keep it clean and show his raw pace like he did last year than i'd say he would be a candidate for that 2nd Red Bull seat.
He's got TOTAL backing which also sponsor RBR and the continuity with Renault engines. He doesn't seem to kick up a major fuss about cooperating within the team either.

[DanardiF1]

They are unproven nothings.

One's a World Champion, one has a podium and many points finishes in a midfield car, one has a pole position and is viewed as a potential title winner.

The others might be 'unproven nothings' (personally I don't think they are) but you'd be wise to not tar all names with the same brush...

[H2H]

I think the evil team fears to give away their illegal telemetry

[Brother Fox]

their almost 40 year old driver

Thats some big rounding, for dramatic effect

[DanardiF1]

So Redbull had the opportunity to hire one of the best drivers to emerge in decades and form a super team yet they chose to keep their almost 40 year old driver who has been consistently mediocre for years. Right combination? What does that mean? He is certainly not referring to on track results which would be stunning with arguably the fastest driver in the sport joining the team.

I find this extraordinary and Horner's excuse does not cut it. There would be too much tension and internal team conflict? I was under the impression F1 was not a social club but a sport utterly focused and dedicated on winning and results, and hiring Hamilton would have greatly boosted the teams results regardless if they were still getting by with Webber just enough to scrape home with titles. Was this really the reason or is the truth they simply did not want to upset Vettel and risk their golden boy being beaten by Lewis Hamilton?

I think it just proves that their only priority is Vettel even to long term detriment of the team. Not enough has been made of this unbelievable team decision.

Er, Mark's 36? I didn't realise 'almost' meant 4 years difference now!?! There have been plenty F1 drivers older than Mark currently is performing at just as high a level. Whilst I don't rate Webber as highly as some of the media does (which I think most of the praise is derived from quite liking Mark himself rather than thinking highly of him as a driver), he's a 9-time Grand Prix winner (as many as Gerhard Berger... who as a driver you could compare fairly to Webber) and has consistently run at the front of a competitive era in F1.

I don't find it extraordinary that he's still wanted at Red Bull. I do find it extraordinary that he's decided to put up with fairly poor treatment from the team management and still continues to give his all for them, but fair play to him for sticking to his own principles...

[kedia990]

I'm a huge Hamilton fan, since I started watching F1 in 2007, he's the only driver I've ever supported. Even so, if I was the owner of Red Bull (or whoever it is that calls the shots), I wouldn't hire Hamilton.
Why? Because as a racing team, Red Bull is the most well-oiled machine the sport has seen since perhaps the Ferrari domination, if not better. What don't they have? A driver who extracts what we think is the most from the car and win the WDC, a guy who designs the best car without fail, strategists who make near-perfect calls, a pit crew who churn out some of the fastest pit stops in the sport, and a team as a whole that hasn't failed to comfortably seal the WCC for the past 3 years. Seriously, what don't they have?
Whichever way you look at it, hiring Hamilton is throwing a spanner in the works. There is no doubt that he would take points off Vettel. There is no doubt that team dynamics would be disrupted due to conflict between the two. Why pay more and hire another star, when you're already achieving everything there is to achieve on a regular basis? What more could they get?

[launchcontrol]

Regardless of how well you think Mark is performing, the point is Hamilton would perform far better and for far longer because Webber is retiring very soon.

[launchcontrol]

Whichever way you look at it, hiring Hamilton is throwing a spanner in the works. There is no doubt that he would take points off Vettel. There is no doubt that team dynamics would be disrupted due to conflict between the two. Why pay more and hire another star, when you're already achieving everything there is to achieve on a regular basis? What more could they get?

More wins, winning titles easier. That surely out weighs any 'conflict' that might happen surely? They won't be getting into a fist fight so who cares if there is more tension? how many millions do the team invest to win races?

[Jacobss]

It's Vettels team. No chance they will recruit a gun racer who could upstage their boy.

Why else is Webber there? He's a safe number 2, everyone knows it. Just nobody talks about it.

You just did it.

Edited by Buttoneer, 19 March 2013 - 10:42.

[seahawk]

And as 2007 showed, a conflict within the team can be very costly.

[lbennie]

Seems like I have visited planetf1 by mistake. Where is my autosport link

[Bartonz20let]

As a Lewis fan I can I understand what the op is on about, albeit, he sounds a bit more 'rabid' than myself and I tend to agree with Horner if I listen to my head. We all know what happened when mark and Seb traded blows, Lewis and Seb would be trying to destroy each other and it's bound up get messy.

However, I'm not sure it's totally the correct decision because i doubt any of the above names mentioned could walk into Red bull and do the #1 job so either RBR are confident the Vettel to Ferrari story is nonsense or the believe the car contributes massively to the success.

In my mind there are 3 other drivers capable of what Seb does, Kimi, Fred & Lewis, 2 are over 30 and probably in their last race seat the other is committed to bringing success to a competitor.

Think what you will about the rest of the drivers but forgetting your fan ship, who can realistically be a number 1 at a top team that isn't already? That's why I think RBR have taken a risk.

[kedia990]

More wins, winning titles easier. That surely out weighs any 'conflict' that might happen surely? They won't be getting into a fist fight so who cares if there is more tension? how many millions do the team invest to win races?

McLaren 2007 - neither driver won the title coz they took points off each other.
Conflicts are extremely relevant - Hungary 2007 - Alonso backs up Hamilton in Q, preventing him from setting a flying lap and as a result, McLaren are docked Constructor's points for the race.
I guess that's the equivalent of a fist fight on track, isn't it?

[teejay]

Seems like I have visited planetf1 by mistake. Where is my autosport link

Jeez its been a while. Dont remind me.

[seahawk]

As a Lewis fan I can I understand what the op is on about, albeit, he sounds a bit more 'rabid' than myself and I tend to agree with Horner if I listen to my head. We all know what happened when mark and Seb traded blows, Lewis and Seb would be trying to destroy each other and it's bound up get messy.

However, I'm not sure it's totally the correct decision because i doubt any of the above names mentioned could walk into Red bull and do the #1 job so either RBR are confident the Vettel to Ferrari story is nonsense or the believe the car contributes massively to the success.

In my mind there are 3 other drivers capable of what Seb does, Kimi, Fred & Lewis, 2 are over 30 and probably in their last race seat the other is committed to bringing success to a competitor.

Think what you will about the rest of the drivers but forgetting your fan ship, who can realistically be a number 1 at a top team that isn't already? That's why I think RBR have taken a risk.

And currently we list those 4 guys because they drove seasons in championship capable cars. Bianchi is in the same situation like Alonso was while driving the Minardi, maybe he will win the WDC in the future. Hülkenberg seems to remind me of Vettel in the TR or Kimi in the Sauber.

The problem is that the younger driver so far had no chance to move up to the top teams (Perez aside this year), as the second seats beside the proven team leaders are occupied by older No.2 drivers. But that does not mean no young gun does have the potential to win the WDC given the right car. So we can not evne say that there are only 4 drivers able to challenge on the highest level. There are only 4 drivers in cars good enough.

[klyster]

You just did it.

What a load of crap, I've been watching longer, also a Ham fan, and I pretty much agree with what he/she said. Sorry ;-)

Don't presume to know what people know, it'll bite you in the ass eventually...

Edited by Buttoneer, 19 March 2013 - 10:43.

[launchcontrol]

McLaren 2007 - neither driver won the title coz they took points off each other.
Conflicts are extremely relevant - Hungary 2007 - Alonso backs up Hamilton in Q, preventing him from setting a flying lap and as a result, McLaren are docked Constructor's points for the race.
I guess that's the equivalent of a fist fight on track, isn't it?

2007 was a freakish thing, and I thought Vettel was a good guy, not like the 'evil Alonso' so there should be a blow up right? There are other considerations also because if you have Hamilton in your team, not only is he improving your performance, but you also don't need to drive against him, thus weakening your opposition. A good strong team boss should be able to control them and just give and ultimatum, behave or your out.

[Bartonz20let]

@seahawk, I agree Hulk is the best of the rest but could equally be a flop in a top car as a success.

It's not like red bull would want a project driver say if Seb left tomorrow you couldn't put bianchi in as the #1 for 2014, could be a total disaster

[seahawk]

@seahawk, I agree Hulk is the best of the rest but could equally be a flop in a top car as a success.

It's not like red bull would want a project driver say if Seb left tomorrow you couldn't put bianchi in as the #1 for 2014, could be a total disaster

But to know if Hulk (or any other driver from the smaller teams) is up to win the WDC, will only become obvious, when he gets a car that is able to fight for race wins. If one of the current No.2 retires, a team has more options than trying to get one of the known top 4 drivers. Options which might even make more sense.

[Bartonz20let]

But to know if Hulk (or any other driver from the smaller teams) is up to win the WDC, will only become obvious, when he gets a car that is able to fight for race wins. If one of the current No.2 retires, a team has more options than trying to get one of the known top 4 drivers. Options which might even make more sense.

Agreed but my original comment was giving the scenario of if Seb left for Ferrari, who could walk in and be #1 from day 1? I think most would say the 3 I already mentioned, anyone else is a gamble at best.

[seahawk]

If Vettel should leave 2014 and they did not hire Lewis, it was a huge mistake indeed. If Vettel leaves 2015 or 2016 they could hire a younger driver and built him up alongside Vettel.

[alframsey]

As much as RBR like to claim equality it is clear they have preference to a clear Number 1 and a clear Number 2 in the team, with Lewis they know this would go out of the window which is why, imo, they wouldn't hire him. I'm not saying because they are scared he'd beat Vettel (nobody knows what would happen) but because he'd upset their system of operation which lets be honest has been very good to them recently.

[Bartonz20let]

Truth is, Seb could be a RBR lifer, he could have told RBR so already so might not be a worry

[Sakae]

I'm a huge Hamilton fan, since I started watching F1 in 2007, he's the only driver I've ever supported. Even so, if I was the owner of Red Bull (or whoever it is that calls the shots), I wouldn't hire Hamilton.Why? Because as a racing team, Red Bull is the most well-oiled machine the sport has seen since perhaps the Ferrari domination, if not better. What don't they have? A driver who extracts what we think is the most from the car and win the WDC, a guy who designs the best car without fail, strategists who make near-perfect calls, a pit crew who churn out some of the fastest pit stops in the sport, and a team as a whole that hasn't failed to comfortably seal the WCC for the past 3 years. Seriously, what don't they have?
Whichever way you look at it, hiring Hamilton is throwing a spanner in the works. There is no doubt that he would take points off Vettel. There is no doubt that team dynamics would be disrupted due to conflict between the two. Why pay more and hire another star, when you're already achieving everything there is to achieve on a regular basis? What more could they get?

...nor would Ferrari (re: LDM).

[Bartonz20let]

That's not what LDM said but I think you know that.

[motorhead]

Webber is near retirement, what happens after that? Hamilton would win more races, more dominance, I thought that kind of stuff was priority for a team? Now they have lost Lewis forever, who will they get next?

Strange topic, they have Vettel if you haven´t notice. When Webber retires, Vettel will keep on doing that great job and if RBR is able to keep the momentum they will win more. A bit dramatic to say that they have lost Lewis forever, this not a love film and there are other guys capable of doing the same. They have achieved everything, why should they pay +15 million for a driver to stir the pot. Vettel is young and seems to be quite comfortable at RBR. Vettel and Lewis probably retire at the same years anyway and there will be young guns for the seat...

[superdelphinus]

Red bull could only really lose - if Hamilton beats vettel it diminishes vettel's 'brand', if vettel beats Hamilton then likewise

[Sardukar]

Because Vettel is better than Hamilton and Webber does a good job at RBR. So why would they want to change anything? There is a lot more to being in a team rather than just being "fast". This whole discussion is always so strange. It basically boils down to people underestimating how fast Webber actually is and how damn good Vettel is.

[launchcontrol]

This whole discussion is always so strange. It basically boils down to people underestimating how fast Webber actually is and how damn good Vettel is.

So his inconsistency is just an illusion?

[DarthWillie]

Hamilton has shown himself a very poor character once things don;t go his ways (obvioulsy talking to other teams, stupid tweets etc) They don't want that kind of disturbance in their team. Imagine the outcry once he starts losing to Vettel.

Plus Hamilton ever proved himself in a lesser team, we don't know if he is really any good (small joke )

[bourbon]

Regardless of how well you think Mark is performing, the point is Hamilton would perform far better and for far longer because Webber is retiring very soon.

Ferrari didn't want him either. It isn't personal - both teams know his immense value. The truth is, nobody except McLaren is going to fuss around with an explosive Senna/Prost or Hamilton/Alonso pairing.

[Headspin]

probably because you never read it anywhere.

If I'd ask you why Ferrari is keeping Massa and not sign another top gun (say Hamilton?), I'd hear how Massa is proven winner, beat Kimi, as fast as they come, known quantity just made look silly by Alonso's mastery etc.

But since it's all heard before many times, I dont ask.

[PMM3]

They are unproven nothings.

They are unproven if you are looking to win with them, but thats hardly the objective with a No 2 driver. The names you refer to, on the other are well proven - as trundlers who will not upset anyone, will collect points and are desparate enough to be in F1 with no WDC aspirations. Thats the ideal mental and talent profile needed for a #2. So RedBull will be fine with any of those names. Now the problem will be if Vettel leaves......but if Hamilton arrived, he will anyway leave. So safer to just not change things too much...After all they are able to build cars fast enough for the current team to win everything that matters.

[seahawk]

Obviously because Hamilton would destroy Vettel. Not good for PR. They have turned Vettel into a very marketable product, they cant be having Hamilton destroy that. And they know he would.

And if Vettel would destroy Hamilton, the lots of money they would pay Hamilton would also be kind of wasted. So in which scneario would RBR actually gain something?

[Meanbeakin]

Sorry but not getting Hamilton is not the be all and end all for Red Bull. They have Newey, they have Vettel (Who is younger than Hamilton), as long as they have Newey they'll keep building decent cars and will keep attracting decent number 2's and keep being successful. Newey is the key, not Hamilton.

[Xeriks]

I agree that Red Bull bringing Hamilton to the team would be a mistake, since why change a winning formula?
But the thought of seeing Hamilton and Vettel battle it out as team mates makes me very happy, it would be fascinating to watch!
I really hope we see it at one point before either driver retires.

[Gilles4Ever]

Posts deleted, if you don't like the thread, don't post, it's against the rules to attack the thread or posters. Please keep to the topic.
Link has been added to OP for source of the article

[David1976]

Agree with a lot of what has already been said. My take:-

1) Hamilton could embarrass Vettel leading to terrible team dynamics (witness Vettel's face whenever Webber beats him and magnify that by ten).
2) The Austrian/German links will always lend support to Vettel over Hamilton. This could be awkward.
3) They have the best car - and have done for the last 4 years. Why would they need to fastest driver to pilot it?

[Sakae]

That's not what LDM said but I think you know that.

Right, context was missing [age, and not wanting rocking the boat]

BBC

...Ferrari say they would choose Sebastian Vettel over Lewis Hamilton if they needed to appoint a new lead driver.
The company's president, Luca Di Montezemolo, said he believed Ferrari's current driver Fernando Alonso was the best in Formula 1.
But the Italian added that Vettel, 25, "would be very good for us".
"Between all the drivers, Vettel and Hamilton could be perfect for Ferrari in the future, with one difference - Vettel is younger," he said...

______

My point rather is that RBR, as everyone else, has right to run their business as they see fit within framework of the CA, and related normative references. Feverish and relentless drive by Hamilton's fans to see this individual only with best teams and best of everything all the time is rather ridiculous and frequently boorish. I haven't seen yet one suggestion for Hamilton to move TR, and prove himself first.
At the end he is where he is, and it might be far better choice than he was ever thinking off when he made that decision and sign for them. In my mind Mercedes will be on the podium sooner or later, as they have now technical resources for it, which were lacking in the past, thus rendering this thread rather redundant. Vettle is not a pushover, and those two would be destroying each other at every opportunity they would get. RB knew what they were doing.

[bourbon]

Obviously because Hamilton would destroy Vettel. Not good for PR. They have turned Vettel into a very marketable product, they cant be having Hamilton destroy that. And they know he would.

Like he destroyed Button?

I think you would have a close battle matching any of the top drivers on the grid - but with certain matchups you have to consider the impact on the team.

Edited by bourbon, 19 March 2013 - 09:08.