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Can you believe Redbull chose Webber over Hamilton?


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#151 ForzaGTR

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 19:21

Lewis and Seb would be fireworks. It would only end in tears.

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#152 MP422

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 19:27

Lewis and Seb would be fireworks. It would only end in tears.



For Seb :rotfl:

#153 Seanspeed

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 19:30

What's the weather got to do with a season littered with BS penalties against Mclaren.

Because thats what the title came down to.

#154 DarthWillie

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 21:53

For Seb :rotfl:

tears of laughter after yet another Hamilton meltdown :cat:

#155 lbennie

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 23:52

Webber was beaten by Heidfeld in 2005 when they were teammates at Williams. Back then, technically speaking Webber should've been in the prime of his career.

Webber has never been a top driver and sure as hell is not at the age of 36. I too would like to see Vettel vs Hamilton some time.


What a load of crap.

Heidfeld also beat kubica over a season too. the scoreboard lies sometimes. Anyone who actually paid attention to the 2 williams boys in 05 could see plain as day who was faster that season.

You don't become a double monaco winner + double silverstone winner without being a top driver.

Sure he's being beaten by an all time great at the moment, but put anyone bar maybe alonso in his seat and the outcome would be the same.

Edited by lbennie, 20 March 2013 - 23:53.


#156 Ricardo F1

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 00:12

Lewis and Seb would be fireworks. It would only end in tears.

Moreover Seb would leave. Hey Seb, here's your new team mate . . . and here's my exit clause to Ferrari ; thanks! I'm not saying that he'd do it out of fear, but out of a lack of respect. As others have pointed out, what more could Seb be doing for Red Bull that he's not already?


#157 ebeneezer2

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 01:03

I disagree with almost everything that has been said in this thread! The fact they've won the last 6 titles doesn't prove anything about their driver policy, they've won the last 6 titles because they've had the best car for the last 3 years! They have also come mighty close to losing two of those WDCs to inferior cars, given the general speed superiority the car has had in Vettel's hands, it should never have been that close. If you'd had Hamilton driving a Red Bull in 2010 or 2012 with Webber's reliability he'd surely have clinched the WDC with several rounds to go.

The notion that having two top drivers in a top team means they damage the team's WDC chances by taking points of each other is nonsense, if a top driver is in a different team he'll also take points off you! The "look what happened in Turkey 2010" argument is nonsense for the same reason, that accident could have just as easily happened if Webber and Vettel had been driving for different teams. 2007 is actually an argument in favour of having two top drivers, if you consider how much better Alonso has been than Massa at Ferrari, and that Raikkonen was similar to Massa at Ferrari, you have to conclude that the 2007 Ferrari was significantly better than the 2007 Mclaren...yet Mclaren ended up almost winning the title, to have BOTH your drivers lose the championship by just 1 point is ridiculously unlucky, if you could resimulate that season, they would surely win the WDC more often with an Alonso-Hamilton partnership than with an e.g. Alonso-Fisichella partnership. For every year like 2007 or 1986 when two top drivers took points off each other, you can take a year like 1989 or 1987, where the faster driver was unlucky with retirements but the slower driver was good enough to take the title anyway, where a firm backup driver might well have failed.

The general point is, you just don't know how a season is going to pan out in terms of whether your faster driver will win the title by 3 points or lose it by 2, the safest choice is surely to take the two best drivers available to you. The only situation when your lead driver will on average score less points over a season due to him sometimes coming 2nd to a strong teammate is when your car is dominant (if it isn't, he'll on average lose the same points to that driver driving for a different team - unless that strong teammate is driving for a bad team, which is unusual and beyond your control anyway). And if your car is dominant, then it doesn't matter how many points he loses out that way, you'll win the WDC with one of your drivers anyway.


#158 ThomFi

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 02:30

I disagree with almost everything that has been said in this thread! The fact they've won the last 6 titles doesn't prove anything about their driver policy, they've won the last 6 titles because they've had the best car for the last 3 years! They have also come mighty close to losing two of those WDCs to inferior cars, given the general speed superiority the car has had in Vettel's hands, it should never have been that close. If you'd had Hamilton driving a Red Bull in 2010 or 2012 with Webber's reliability he'd surely have clinched the WDC with several rounds to go.

.....


Strangely, there seems to be a widespread consensus, even in the british media, that McLaren indeed had the best car in 2012, not Red Bull. But in Britain, at least, the team was blamed for being "operational " not good enough.
However, Red Bull wasn't perfect either. They needed the first races to get their tunnel solution working, had alternator issues, KERS issues, underfuling in qualifying, messed up pit stop because of no radio (Brasil), etc.
While Vettel won the chamionship with 281 points, Hamilton ended up only 4th with 190 points and 91 behind, even behind a Ferrari and a Lotus.
Although I wouldn't say the 4 th place was bad, it was hardly a extraordinary performance either. I saw nothing, that would make me believe that Hamilton would have won the championship earlier than Vettel.

For 2011, we remember Hamilton mainly for his crashes into Massa and modest performances. But his fans blamed it on Whitmarsh, for favouring Button, Button, for taking over the team, the car, for being build around Button, the tires, for stopping him showing his brilliance, the race engineer , the management, the girlfriend, his father, reporter McKenzie Lee for disturbing him with her questions and so on.

But, of course, everyone is entitled to his opinion.

Edited by ThomFi, 21 March 2013 - 08:16.


#159 wepmob2000

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 02:44


Both sides to this argument have their merits. Yes, there are faster and more consistent drivers than Webber out there, who would bring in more points and make the WCC easier, they would also give RBR two genuine shots at the WDC. A Hamilton-Vettel combo would be fantastic for the fans, and probably fantastic for Red Bull's image worldwide. Also a combo like that would be more in line with the raison d'etre of any F1 team, like McLaren tried to achieve in the past.

But, I can see why this will never happen. I am no fan of Vettel, thinking he's seriously overrated and flattered by the car, but there can be no denying he gets the job done. He clearly fits Red Bull's desired profile like a glove, both in terms of driving and image. Trying to create a super-team with two top line drivers rarely works, Williams in 1986-7, and McLaren 1988-9 and 2007 have proven this. Looking at this from Horner's perspective, why would he want to fix something thats not broken? The team enjoys huge success as it is, and a second top driver would likely cause him nothing but headaches. Looking at the current grid, its difficult to see who would do a better job than Webber? Button's excellent, but inconsistent like Webber, as are most of the other 2nd drivers. Those from lower teams are largely unknown quantities. Rosberg would be good, but would he want to leave Mercedes for a no-2 drive? I would say Nick heidfeld might have been a good candidate, but he's been out of F1 for a while.

I can see why things won't change at RBR, although as a fan I'd love them to.....


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#160 LoudHoward

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 03:09

Webber is settled, consistent enough (lets face it, when he has his bad days, he's not fapping around in 15th like Button was when things weren't going his way last year), on his good days as good as anyone, and he's flexible. Talk about other drivers, they're going to want medium-long term contracts. Webber and the team are happy with the single year rolling contract, it's good for both parties.

Webbers strong in qualifying and very solid in the races, sometimes gets a bit mixed up in mess but also has the ability to pull off some top moves against the best drivers. He's getting called average or midfield at best in this thread, but besides his starting I think he's well above average in all categories. 3 of the last 4 seasons by mid-way through the year he's been challenging for the championship, and the year he didn't the reason for that is either 1) not there anymore (EBD) or 2) overcome (going about 3 corners before his tyres were done). He's pretty much the perfect foil for Seb, enough of a challenge to push him along at times, but not quite enough to beat the guy over a season. You've just won 6 out of 6 titles, why would you change that?!

#161 Brother Fox

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 03:13

Since the title is posed as a question, I'll reply with an answer.



Yes.


#162 baddog

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 03:28

Redbull would be insane to upset the applecart. If they were struggling then yes, but they are right on top as a team and I can see no reason for a risky move like that. In a couple of years yes.

#163 v@sh

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 03:55

Simple answer yes, for:

- 2 proven drivers, one a 3xWDC and a multiple race winner
- 3 WCC
- Stability is generally good in F1 in a championship winning team
- As much I too would like a Hamilton/Vettel pairing, it would upset the balance much

As for fans considering MW average:

- Definitely above average but not in the Alonso/Hamilton/Vettel league
- He was beaten by points vs. Heidfield but quicker than Heidfield (in much the same vein as I'd take Hamilton over Button because Hamilton is quicker even if he finished in the points behind). Same principle as I'd rather have a quick car that's unreliable than having a slow car that's reliable
- He was also quicker than Rosberg and beat him over the season (though Rosberg was in his rookie season)
- If you're an average driver, you don't win Monaco/Silverstone multiple times
- He is racing for a team where he is driving where the support isn't 100% there compared to his previous teams

#164 Mohican

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 06:04

This is a very strange thread; I think that a lot of people can see only too well why RBR did not hire Hamilton.
He simply does not have the personality to fit into a TEAM, he is one of those who require everything to revolve around him and him alone. Some teams can deal with, and above all are prepared to do so, this attitude better than others.

Hamilton does not walk on water; he was world champion several years ago, and is now frustrated at not having done better since. And that championship was not decisive, could just as well have been won by Massa (who today remembers, for instance, the Singapore fuel rig incident that cost Massa that race). First of all, Hamilton has to truly lead & dominate his current team - which might be easier said than done; Rosberg is no slouch.

And he must stop childish gloating about Ron Dennis and McLaren, his dad should tell him to shut up.



#165 pinkypants

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 00:28

http://www.dailymail...ark-Webber.html

#166 Bruce

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 00:39

http://www.dailymail...ark-Webber.html


Loyalty in F1 - who'da thunk it....

#167 DILLIGAF

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 01:42

Loyalty in F1 - who'da thunk it....


Dietrich Mateschitz is a loyal & honourable man. I can see why Mark deals directly with him regarding his contracts. That said, i'm not sure Mark will be at RBR next year.



#168 Zoetrope

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 14:01

Formula One politics. Wonder what RBR decision would be if Mark left and Lewis was still up for grabs in 2014.

#169 mnmracer

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 14:05

Formula One politics. Wonder what RBR decision would be if Mark left and Lewis was still up for grabs in 2014.

Wonder what RBR decision would be if Mark didn't leave, but they hadn't extended his contract yet.
There's only so many tension you can create within a team, and clearly if Red Bull is willing to disadvantage their frontrunner and create all this drama because they're afraid for a repeat of one event 3 years ago, they should re-think their drivers choice.

#170 FastnLoud

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 14:25

Helmut Marko doesn't want Seb being challenged. He knows he can beat Mark easily, why would he want to bring in someone like Lewis who would sand a good chance of beating him.

Mark is a good driver and with the car that Redbull have bring in the points to win the WCC without beating seb to the WDC.

It's that simple, why would he mess up the right formula that they have at the moment, his adopted son winning 3 years on the run and the team winning the constructors three years on the run.

Never going to happen was it, Imagine Lewis, Kimi, Nico or Fernando at Redbull with Seb, put it this way, he wouldn't be 3 time champion with those drivers alongside him.