46 replies to this topic

[eronrules]

http://www.planetf1....tmarsh-at-fault

Coulthard believes that the Woking outfit have at most three more races to figure out exactly where they are going wrong.

"Over the next three races in Malaysia, China and Bahrain, they need to start understanding what the problem is," Coulthard wrote in his column in the Daily Telegraph.

"If it is a fundamental issue, then they need to make sure, come the Spanish Grand Prix in May, that they have the requisite parts to maximise the potential. The general rule is that by the fifth race, when the teams come to Europe, you start to see the true pecking order emerging.

"For a quarter of the season McLaren could find themselves scrapping for the minor points, simply due to the distances involved, and because teams cannot react as quickly as they might do closer to home."

The Scot added that the heat was rightly on Whitmarsh as the buck stops with him, but that there are others who need to get their affairs in order too.

"You cannot escape the fact that there is pressure upon Martin Whitmarsh as team principal, for in the end, the captain of the ship is responsible for its navigation," wrote the former McLaren driver.

"Ultimately, Martin is accountable in the same way that the technical director and the driver is. But F1 is not a sport where people shy away from responsibility. It is one of the best businesses for accountability that I have ever come across. Any evidence of a lack of commitment, lack of focus, or an inability to deliver consistently, is immediately addressed. Failure is not an option.

"What the shareholders or what the McLaren board will do at any given point is to ask: "What was the reason for that success or failure?" You do not win by accident any more than you lose by accident.

"I worked at McLaren under Ron Dennis rather than Martin, and Ron always used to say: "I don't design the car." Instead he would give the people the right power, the right salaries, the right environment. I would imagine that Ron has passed on the same message and that Martin is using those very words, trying to bring people together. I am not aware of any major headhunting recently, but I am aware of certain people leaving, not least Lewis Hamilton and Paddy Lowe on the technical side. There will be question marks, but I still do not feel you can shine the spotlight on one individual."

Edited by eronrules, 19 March 2013 - 18:16.

[JRizzle86]

Does this really need it's own thread. Wouldn't it be ok in the Mclaren thread?

[Ross Stonefeld]

This isn't football, we don't sack people after a few games.

[eronrules]

Does this really need it's own thread. Wouldn't it be ok in the Mclaren thread?

mclaren thread is about the car and it's development. this is about management and Whitmarsh. i thought it'd be better if separated.

[jjcale]

This isn't football, we don't sack people after a few games.

How about after a few years then...

[Ross Stonefeld]

I wouldn't say the past few years have been bad. They had a crap start to 2009 and so did lots of people, but they improved dramatically. McLaren have been better than Mercedes, Lotus, and Ferrari; on balance over the last few years. Only Red Bull, and really Vettel, have consistently been at the front with few problems.

But people talk like McLaren are struggling to score points in every race of the last few years.

[Raziel]

I think that David should've waited and shut his mouth at least until Spain grand Prix!

[Buttoneer]

mclaren thread is about the car and it's development. this is about management and Whitmarsh. i thought it'd be better if separated.

A good decision I see no mention of a technical update here.

[Seanspeed]

http://www.planetf1....tmarsh-at-fault



pretty scathing from DC

Seems entirely fair and reasonable to me.

Not sure what the part is about, either.

[Jovanotti]

Seems entirely fair and reasonable to me.

Not sure what the part is about, either.

+1, not a very controversial article.

And to add, being responsible ≠ being at fault.

[SunnyENTP]

Only in F1 could someone be so useless and still keep their job.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

McLaren under Whitmarsh always seems to miss that something. It seems to be a pattern that more of than not, they're playing catch-up, and when they have something good, they squander it. My guess is that is what primarily drove Hamilton away. From the outside, it appears that its management is overly rigid, and that doesn't suit the fluid nature of the sport.

[Jon83]

I think that David should've waited and shut his mouth at least until Spain grand Prix!

Why?

He made reference to the opening races in the column and the way I read it, is saying that the damage could be done before they make it to Barcelona which unless something incredible happens, will be the case.

[Ross Stonefeld]

McLaren under Whitmarsh always seems to miss that something. It seems to be a pattern that more of than not, they're playing catch-up, and when they have something good, they squander it. My guess is that is what primarily drove Hamilton away. From the outside, it appears that its management is overly rigid, and that doesn't suit the fluid nature of the sport.

They do seem to be missing the magic ingredient but that seems more systemic to McLaren than Whitmarsh. Even if it was his style of management and structure, removing him wouldn't actually change that. You'd have to retool the team most of the way down.

[LuckyStrike1]

Whitmarsh has been in a managing position at McLaren for ages so if he's gonna be hang for this years cars one race into the season, he should be credited with the success McLaren has had underh is control as managing the team and the company - even when Ron Dennis was still fully operational. And I believe he get's that credit.

[Alcibiades]

Only in F1 could someone be so useless and still keep their job.

So why is he useless? They have had three World Champion drivers in the last six years and won numerous races and competed for the World Championship. They have not done as well as they might have and will not be happy to have missed out on championships since 2008 but do you know what useless means? This isn't useless. In my view he deserves some respect for what he has done even if we consider that on balance he has underperformed.

[trogggy]

pretty scathing from DC

I don't know what you've read...

I still do not feel you can shine the spotlight on one individual.

[P123]

Isn't DC saying that whilst Whitmarsh has responsibility, it isn't all down to him?

[velgajski1]

I have been saying exactly what DC said now since last season and usually I got - 'how is it Whitmarsh's fault'. It is. He is ultimately responsible for overall result, especially over the years.

Whitmarsh is not doing terribly bad, McLaren won races in every season so far under Whitmarsh. But - McLaren is here to win not just a few races here and there, but to win titles. For me, biggest failure is not being able to bring home WCC with Button + Hamilton lineup. Losing Hamilton is also not a plus in any case.

2013. is extremely important, if McLaren goes through this season without winning a race (which doesn't seem all impossible to me) I am not confident we will see Whitmarsh in 2014., at least not at the helm of McLaren.

Edited by velgajski1, 19 March 2013 - 13:35.

[Massa]

I wouldn't say the past few years have been bad. They had a crap start to 2009 and so did lots of people, but they improved dramatically. McLaren have been better than Mercedes, Lotus, and Ferrari; on balance over the last few years. Only Red Bull, and really Vettel, have consistently been at the front with few problems.

But people talk like McLaren are struggling to score points in every race of the last few years.

The last WCC for Mclaren is 1998. Mclaren is born to win, not some race but some WCC and WDC.

[Tenmantaylor]

The last WCC for Mclaren is 1998. Mclaren is born to win, not some race but some WCC and WDC.

I distinctly remember Ron Dennis stating McLaren exists to win races.

[peroa]

I distinctly remember Ron Dennis stating McLaren exists to win races.

Monza 2012, IIRC.

[kosmos]

I distinctly remember Ron Dennis stating McLaren exists to win races.

When you can't win titles you have to settle with wins, it's the next best thing.

[Ross Stonefeld]

The last WCC for Mclaren is 1998. Mclaren is born to win, not some race but some WCC and WDC.

They've been challenging for titles since then, they've even won a few. You can't declare 1998 as their last good result.

[Atreiu]

I think McLaren's problems go further and deeper than Whitmarsh's time at the lead. It has been over a decade that they have been unable to make two solid title chanlenging cars in a row, except for 07-08, and even then they lost 3 of 4 titles (WDC + WCC).

[Tenmantaylor]

How many years did McLaren even challenge for the WCC since 98? IE be in it going into the last race. The only ones that spring to mind for me are '99, '05 and '07.

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 19 March 2013 - 15:01.

[Burtros]

Its odd. My initial frustration this year was directed at Whitmarsh.

Then you read things like this thread and realise - McLaren havent really done any better or worse under him than they did for years under Ron. 1 WCC in 22 years now.

I think the problem lies deeper within McLaren - what it could be I dont know. Its bizarre one team can win so many races and so few titles and its to simplistic to blame one man or expect replacing him to introduce any change in fortunes.

[g1n]

How many years did McLaren even challenge for the WCC since 98? IE be in it going into the last race. The only ones that spring to mind for me are '99, '05 and '07.

2008

[MinT]

pretty scathing from DC

You appear to have read what you wanted to see from that article. Its pretty much stating the obvious and not really scathing of MW - and the thread title is misleading as that is not really the main point of the article - the fact that many individuals in the team are to "blame" is.

[mkoscevic]

DC: "Failure is not an option"

What kind of **** is this?

F1 is drowning in all kind of failures (governance, tech) just like any other business/industry.

I hate when ppl try to make F1 sound too elite.

Edited by mkoscevic, 19 March 2013 - 17:52.

[yoyogetfunky]

http://www.planetf1....tmarsh-at-fault



pretty scathing from DC

I dont agree with DC. Whitmarsh is responsible, but this is one bad race, right after a season when their car was up to Red Bull pace. They won the last race in Brasil, had 7 poles throughout 2012. If Whitmarsh needs to go after one bad car, one bad race after so many succeses, you wonder why they keep Domenicalli so long in Marranello. When was the last true, dry race pole for them? If one team can turn around a bad car better than anyone else its McLaren.

Edited by yoyogetfunky, 19 March 2013 - 18:10.

[trogggy]

I dont agree with DC. Whitmarsh is responsible, but this is one bad race, right after a season when their car was up to Red Bull pace. They won the last race in Brasil, had 7 poles throughout 2012. If Whitmarsh needs to go after one bad car, one bad race after so many succeses, you wonder why they keep Domenicalli so long in Marranello. When was the last true, dry race pole for them? If one team can turn around a bad car better than anyone else its McLaren.

It sounds like you do agree with DC tbh.

[bonjon1979a]

2008

Hmm, not really. Only lewis was getting results and they were closer to being third than they were to being first.

[DutchQuicksilver]

Hmm, not really. Only lewis was getting results and they were closer to being third than they were to being first.

Only 21 points behind Ferrari and 16 in front of BMW Sauber and that was mainly because they scored no points in Fuji and Kovalainen had two retirements in a row in Fuji and China

[Ross Stonefeld]

To be fair though, it was 10 points for a win in 2008. So Kovalainen finishing wasn't really going to put them into contention. Though they weren't getting massacred either.

[Coral]

This isn't football, we don't sack people after a few games.

A few games? It's been four years! I seriously do not know how Whitmarsh is still in a job. As I have said before, McLaren have become F1's equivalent of Arsenal...always there or thereabouts, but never the ones to pick up the silverware. What is Ron Dennis thinking? I honestly can't see McLaren winning any WDC/WCC with Whitmarsh as TP.

[MirNyet]

In some ways, McLaren feel like they are still paying for the nonsense of 2007/2008 - never being seen to overly copy other cars - going down odd routes just to be different etc, etc... You can sort of see the beginning's of this in the 2003 MP4/18A - too different, too radical, too much - so much so that it never raced and when a version of it did - it didn't even work. This sort of thing worked in Chapman's day - but then the rules were much more open. Perhaps McLaren's problem is that it hasn't grown up with the sport it takes part in? Refinement, not reinvention is the name of the game these days - just ask Red Bull or for that matter Lotus. Until this penny drops, I personally think we are going to see McLaren continue to be overly too clever for their own good, and keep making stupid mistake which end their year before it begins.

Someone has to be responsible for this, Whitmarsh sits at the top of the ladder, while we don't design the cars, he does sign off on concept decisions and directions. While he may not fully understand the detail - he will know that reinventing the wheel does hold more risk than refining a known and successful concept. For this, he does need to answer some questions, if not to McLaren, then to its fans who continue to support this team regardless of its many failings.

[eronrules]

Someone has to be responsible for this, Whitmarsh sits at the top of the ladder, while we don't design the cars, he does sign off on concept decisions and directions. While he may not fully understand the detail - he will know that reinventing the wheel does hold more risk than refining a known and successful concept. For this, he does need to answer some questions, if not to McLaren, then to its fans who continue to support this team regardless of its many failings.

whitmarsh isn't a car designer, but u need someone at the top of managerial department to give the team stability and stamp authority, regarding team orders, driver management and assembling a team to design and develop the car. a TP has to co-ordinate various departments, make desicion of future developments and hire/retain employees.

now, since ron left, we've seen growing tension in the team between drivers, equal opportunities policy has cost points off of each other, pit stop blunders last year, lewis's slump in 2011 (yes i'd attribute some responsibility to the team as it's their job to council a driver and support him), and 3 out of last 4 years, they've started at the backfoot. since 2008, they've made a completely new car every season, while it's good to show that the team can do it, it has cost them first couple of races to sort things out, thereby sacrificing WDC/WCC. mclaren is a winning team and race winning is their priority, but somehow that seems to be the moto now a days, win races, that's it, not championships. win races and keep sponsors happy ... seems like they've reached a Cul-de-sac of team evolution. i'm not gonna blame MW or engineers for it, it's the problem of the whole team IMO. something is missing from the team. and they need to find it soon.

i was (and still am somewhat) a fan of mclaren since 2003 ... but this is the first season that i felt no connection to the team, no reason to support (and that was before december) . but i'd love to see the team turn around, or i fear another williams incident.

[Dalton007]

FFS, give Whitmarsh a break. As someone said already, MAC haven't won a WCC since 1998 - under Ron Dennis!

[Ross Stonefeld]

Again, why are listing the WCC as the only metric to guage the team's performance?

[Boxerevo]

...seems to be the moto now a days, win races, that's it, not championships. win races and keep sponsors happy ... seems like they've reached a Cul-de-sac of team evolution.

This is first huge problem i saw these years.

Mclaren is "selfsufficient".

They can screw a little and stay fine with some victorys each year.

So they are always "there" and it is enough.

Edited by Boxerevo, 19 March 2013 - 20:15.

[surbjits]

Again, why are listing the WCC as the only metric to guage the team's performance?

It's not the only metric, but the ultimate one. With a team like McLaren, you'd assume and hope they'd aim to win it.

[eronrules]

Again, why are listing the WCC as the only metric to guage the team's performance?

even if we forget WCC's, since 2008 , they've failed to mount a coherent WDC challenge, simply by botching up season start and playing catch up. how many times we've heart the mclaren is the fastest at the end of the season, and yet the next season they botch things up somehow.

[alan]

Martin Whitmarsh might not be a designer, but his body language of late portrays poor image management and i dare say does not project confidence. He seems to be apologizing at every opportunity and he looks kind of beaten. Yes, come out and say, "well the car is not as fast as we would like, but we are working flat out to fix it"....dont go looking down and giving apologies on nearly every interview....and this goes for their lead driver too...who cant wait to thrash the car at every opportunity. That is not the way to rally the troops and as a fan of the team is quite annoying!

[ZooL]

He's not the sharpest knife in the box.

Would have got rid of him 2-3 years ago. I have been saying this for a long time...people are slow to see whats going on but he'll be sacked in the end I'm pretty sure.
I have a list of things in my head that I can't coherently say right now of where he has made the wrong decision.

Ultimately he is unable to make the hard decisions - which is what makes the best managers different from the mediocre ones.

[LuckyStrike1]

He's not the sharpest knife in the box.

Would have got rid of him 2-3 years ago. I have been saying this for a long time...people are slow to see whats going on but he'll be sacked in the end I'm pretty sure.
I have a list of things in my head that I can't coherently say right now of where he has made the wrong decision.

Ultimately he is unable to make the hard decisions - which is what makes the best managers different from the mediocre ones.

Luckily though they will get it one day and listen to you and then you fortunately have that list in your head.

Edited by LuckyStrike1, 20 March 2013 - 06:30.

[Dalton007]

Again, why are listing the WCC as the only metric to guage the team's performance?

Ultimately, that's what going to matter. WDCs and WCCs. If you are winning, none of the fanboys will complain!
I suspect that Ron Dennis got away with it because the forums were in their infancy, or didn't exist.

I'm on Whitmarsh's side. Yeah, his body language is not helping, but I bet he was promised that the car would be something special. He has been let down. Time for those guys to get working on solutions - I'm sure they already are.