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F1's Greatest Myths


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#651 g1n

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 00:25

There will never be another Murray Walker. And that's sad. Murray was indeed the best.


Not towards the last part of his career, I have been re-watching races since 1995 or so and since he left the commentating quality has risen by A LOT. All due respect to the old man though, he has been there since the beginning and will always remain an icon amongst sport commentators.

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#652 William Hunt

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 00:50

Well, all right then fellas, I guess then we've dispelled the myth with regards to my memory, but MotorSport and Automobile Year did back me up on this one occasion.


I'm still not sure if this info is to be trusted, this topic was ellaborated in this documentary and I really saw that mechanic say what he did say. Off course he might have said that on purpose to fuel the myth. But if it is a myth than I was correct in posting it in this thread no? In that case it belongs here.

#653 William Hunt

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 00:52

Murray Walker was a great reporter because he was enthusiastic and was fun to listen to. But his commentary was often, more than not, full of glitches (often even mentioning the wrong driver names) and he was sometimes biased (especially towards English drivers) as well and it lacked the depth of for example Martin Brundle's commentary. Still I loved listening to him.

Edited by William Hunt, 06 August 2013 - 00:53.


#654 andrewr

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 01:18

Murray Walker was a great reporter because he was enthusiastic and was fun to listen to. But his commentary was often, more than not, full of glitches (often even mentioning the wrong driver names) and he was sometimes biased (especially towards English drivers) as well and it lacked the depth of for example Martin Brundle's commentary. Still I loved listening to him.

All true, but when it was tempered with James Hunt's corrections and dry humour, it was the best commentary to listen to.

#655 William Hunt

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 02:05

All true, but when it was tempered with James Hunt's corrections and dry humour, it was the best commentary to listen to.


I fully agree although the way Hunt talked about Riccardo Patrese was a deep shame. Hunt blamed Patrese for the '78 Monza start crash that eventually cost Peterson's life when it was well proven afterwards that Patrese wasn't to blame at all (in fact from the images I saw I believe Hunt himself was more to blame but it was a freak accident).

Edited by William Hunt, 06 August 2013 - 02:06.


#656 andrewr

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 02:29

I fully agree although the way Hunt talked about Riccardo Patrese was a deep shame. Hunt blamed Patrese for the '78 Monza start crash that eventually cost Peterson's life when it was well proven afterwards that Patrese wasn't to blame at all (in fact from the images I saw I believe Hunt himself was more to blame but it was a freak accident).

Yeah. it's a shame he never did let go of that.

Not sure if this is a myth or not, but I recall reading somewhere that James would step out of the commentary box to smoke a joint and Murray would cover for him by saying on air that James had gone to look at "the far side of the circuit".

#657 MightyMoose

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 02:50

I have to say you can't judge "Muddly Talker" by the standards today. Often they were commentating from the luxury of the BBC studio - "We can't quite see the pits from here!" Often commenting on exactly what you could see yourself, no live timing really available, all pencil & paper etc. The TV coverage was dogshit both in terms of availability & quality of direction.

I honestly think it's too easy to say he was always a buffoon, and it's fair to say he did make plenty of mistakes, but let's face it, his enthusiasm and attitude made the racing seem even more special.

Would his style and approach work today? Maybe, maybe not... I certainly haven't ever heard anyone criticize his preparation or professionalism.

It's only fair to judge anyone by the circumstances of their time, and if anyone can recall the shambles of the races shown by ITV in the late 70's, there is little doubt which broadcaster, and by definition commentator, was streets ahead.

#658 dublin

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 03:10

That Hakkinen was the 'fastest man in F1'

That Räikkönen was the 'fastest man in F1'

That Vettel is the 'fastest man in F1'



Notice a pattern here? Newey. The first two myths were busted just like the last will eventually be.

#659 Oho

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 06:58

That Hakkinen was the 'fastest man in F1'

That Räikkönen was the 'fastest man in F1'

That Vettel is the 'fastest man in F1'



Notice a pattern here? Newey. The first two myths were busted just like the last will eventually be.


None of those is a myth, they are all opinions you happen to disagree with. Thanks for playing.

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#660 Beamer

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 07:13

That Hakkinen was the 'fastest man in F1'

That Räikkönen was the 'fastest man in F1'

That Vettel is the 'fastest man in F1'



Notice a pattern here? Newey. The first two myths were busted just like the last will eventually be.


And how exactly where they busted?

#661 dublin

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 07:16

And how exactly where they busted?


Pretty obvious how. That tag is clearly just given to the driver who gets the most poles in a newey rocket ship the rinse and repeat. It should be clearly obviously how silly it all is.

#662 superdelphinus

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 07:18

Yeah I was being a bit cheeky on Murray there. The guy is an utter legend and when he leaves this mortal coil his obituaries will talk about how important he was for the popularity of f1 through the decades. He always reminds me of John motson in a way, but with infinitely more charm

#663 Beamer

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 08:02

Pretty obvious how. That tag is clearly just given to the driver who gets the most poles in a newey rocket ship the rinse and repeat. It should be clearly obviously how silly it all is.


How silly what is?

#664 dublin

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 08:06

How silly what is?



That the 'fastest driver' tag is given to the fastest Newey driver just because he gets the most poles in the fastest car. Notice a pattern? One of the great myths in history from folks who are unable to differentiate between car and driver performance.

#665 7MGTEsup

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 08:14

Pretty obvious how. That tag is clearly just given to the driver who gets the most poles in a newey rocket ship the rinse and repeat. It should be clearly obviously how silly it all is.


Last time I checked this is motor racing and the man is only as good as the machine in which he sits. No one will ever know who the fastest driver is or was as everything is a moving target. It's such a complicated subject that you could debate it endlessly (see this forum)

#666 Oho

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 08:14

That the 'fastest driver' tag is given to the fastest Newey driver just because he gets the most poles in the fastest car. Notice a pattern? One of the great myths in history from folks who are unable to differentiate between car and driver performance.


Keep digging, your are almost at neck depth already.


#667 EvanRainer

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 08:19

Obvious troll is obvious

#668 dublin

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 08:22

Last time I checked this is motor racing and the man is only as good as the machine in which he sits. No one will ever know who the fastest driver is or was as everything is a moving target. It's such a complicated subject that you could debate it endlessly (see this forum)



I agree totally that's why I was highlighting how silly it is for that tag to always go to the defacto Newey lead driver.

#669 JeePee

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 08:26

I agree totally that's why I was highlighting how silly it is for that tag to always go to the defacto Newey lead driver.

Rory Byrne disagrees.


#670 joshb

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 08:32

Myth- Everything Newey designs is brilliant!

#671 Disgrace

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 10:05

That is no myth at all, Newey has had some stinkers (FW16, MP4-16, MP4-19 and RB4 come to mind). Plus his connection with unreliability (FW14, FW17, MP4-14, MP4-20, RB6).

#672 JeePee

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 10:12

MP4-18 :p

#673 Disgrace

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 10:44

The crowning glory indeed. The RB3 was another notoriously unreliable Newey-designed car.

Edited by Disgrace, 06 August 2013 - 10:50.


#674 E.B.

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 18:04

I fully agree although the way Hunt talked about Riccardo Patrese was a deep shame.


Everyone says this, so it probably isn't a myth, but I can't actually recall any specific examples of Hunt going off on any anti-Patrese rants. Would this have been very early in his commentating career?




#675 William Hunt

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 18:26

Oh I clearly remember him doing it. I was a Patrese fan so it upset me when he did that.

Edited by William Hunt, 06 August 2013 - 18:27.


#676 olliek88

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 18:37

That is no myth at all, Newey has had some stinkers (FW16, MP4-16, MP4-19 and RB4 come to mind). Plus his connection with unreliability (FW14, FW17, MP4-14, MP4-20, RB6).


Eh? The FW-16 (which won the constructors title) was a stinker? As was the MP4-16 which came second in the WCC? Newey rarely makes a "stinker", sure they're sometimes a tad unreliable but more often than not they're quality racing cars.

#677 apoka

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 19:37

That Hakkinen was the 'fastest man in F1'
That Räikkönen was the 'fastest man in F1'
[...]
Notice a pattern here? Newey. The first two myths were busted just like the last will eventually be.

I don't want to open a can of worms, but Schumacher is widely considered to be the fastest man at that time (although Häkkinnen and Räikkönen are no doubt quick as well).


#678 Kingshark

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 20:30

Schumacher was not considered to be the fastest man during 2003-2006, people were always up-talking Raikkonen, and claiming how he'd beat Schumi in the same equipment. Then Kimi joins Ferrari, and has his hands full with Massa. Oh boy how I sometimes wish that Michael had stayed with Ferrari in 2007 and 2008, watching him in his late 30's wipe the floor with Raikkonen would have been highly amusing.

#679 olliek88

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 20:52

Schumacher was not considered to be the fastest man during 2003-2006, people were always up-talking Raikkonen, and claiming how he'd beat Schumi in the same equipment. Then Kimi joins Ferrari, and has his hands full with Massa. Oh boy how I sometimes wish that Michael had stayed with Ferrari in 2007 and 2008, watching him in his late 30's wipe the floor with Raikkonen would have been highly amusing.


If's, but's and maybe's. I'd also point you in the direction of the Hill, Villeneuve & Frentzen triumvirate...

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#680 Vesuvius

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 21:04

That Hakkinen was the 'fastest man in F1'

That Räikkönen was the 'fastest man in F1'

That Vettel is the 'fastest man in F1'



Notice a pattern here? Newey. The first two myths were busted just like the last will eventually be.


how were they busted? Martin Withmarsh said to Peter Windsor on racer edge (montreal gp 2013) that Mika Häkkinen was and is the fastest man over one lap ever to drive McLaren on that time that Martin has worked with McLaren (since 1989)...that's a big thing to say when on that time there has been drivers like Senna,Prost,Räikkönen,Montoya,Alonso,Hamilton etc.. Kimi was fastest on his time, like Vettel has been recent years with Hamilton.

#681 Vesuvius

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 21:10

Schumacher was not considered to be the fastest man during 2003-2006, people were always up-talking Raikkonen, and claiming how he'd beat Schumi in the same equipment. Then Kimi joins Ferrari, and has his hands full with Massa. Oh boy how I sometimes wish that Michael had stayed with Ferrari in 2007 and 2008, watching him in his late 30's wipe the floor with Raikkonen would have been highly amusing.


well Schumacher and Kimi tested at the same time 2008 with F2008 and Kimi was faster than Michael despitate having no new parts like Schumi did and Michael slowed Kimi's best laptime on final sector....Anyway I have no doubts that Michael wouldn't have matched and beaten Kimi in those f2007&2008 as those were build to Michael's liking not Kimi's.Massa at the end of 2006 was already matching Michael many times, and he was even better next couple of years. Current Massa isn't even shadow of that Felipe we saw last time 2009.

#682 Obi Offiah

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 21:34

well Schumacher and Kimi tested at the same time 2008 with F2008 and Kimi was faster than Michael despitate having no new parts like Schumi did and Michael slowed Kimi's best laptime on final sector....Anyway I have no doubts that Michael wouldn't have matched and beaten Kimi in those f2007&2008 as those were build to Michael's liking not Kimi's.Massa at the end of 2006 was already matching Michael many times, and he was even better next couple of years. Current Massa isn't even shadow of that Felipe we saw last time 2009.

I think this may be another myth, but I will need to check again to be sure.

#683 Vesuvius

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 23:01

I think this may be another myth, but I will need to check again to be sure.


well since hungary 2006 to the end of 2006 qualifyings went 4-2 for Massa (poles 3-0 for Massa)... wins 2-2 and points 32-30 for Michael....so not too bad from Felipe back then...

Edited by Vesuvius, 06 August 2013 - 23:01.


#684 Skinnyguy

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 23:08

well since hungary 2006 to the end of 2006 qualifyings went 4-2 for Massa (poles 3-0 for Massa)... wins 2-2 and points 32-30 for Michael....so not too bad from Felipe back then...


Checking that, I became shocked to find out who had scored the most points on the full grid from Hungary 2006 on. When I made the maths I remembered having heard it on ITV , but had forgotten.

No one would guess it without looking back and doing the maths!!

#685 Disgrace

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 23:16

Eh? The FW-16 (which won the constructors title) was a stinker? As was the MP4-16 which came second in the WCC? Newey rarely makes a "stinker", sure they're sometimes a tad unreliable but more often than not they're quality racing cars.


I suspected that this might come up. I would argue that Williams had the stronger driver line up, whilst Benetton continually switched between Jos and JJ Lehto, which did neither driver any favours. If you compared the '92 and '93 challengers to the '94 car, the difference is astounding. Schumacher's ban and DSQs helped the team massively to the WCC.

I assume you highlighted the MP4-16 as an issue also, so I will comment. The car was third fastest over the course of the season, falling behind BMW Williams in only their second year as a partnership. They should have challenged for the title, but it was sewn up by Ferrari in Hungary. The car was not fast enough, regardless of reliability (which I have not really mentioned as Mercedes was more responsible than Newey for the dogs of '02 and '06 for instance).

Edited by Disgrace, 06 August 2013 - 23:16.


#686 ryan86

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 12:34

Checking that, I became shocked to find out who had scored the most points on the full grid from Hungary 2006 on. When I made the maths I remembered having heard it on ITV , but had forgotten.

No one would guess it without looking back and doing the maths!!


Because I've got a good memory, IIRC it was Button.

#687 Skinnyguy

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 14:49

Because I've got a good memory, IIRC it was Button.


Indeed it was.

#688 Radion

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 14:54

Schumacher was not considered to be the fastest man during 2003-2006, people were always up-talking Raikkonen, and claiming how he'd beat Schumi in the same equipment. Then Kimi joins Ferrari, and has his hands full with Massa. Oh boy how I sometimes wish that Michael had stayed with Ferrari in 2007 and 2008, watching him in his late 30's wipe the floor with Raikkonen would have been highly amusing.

By whom?
By the way, wasn't it amusing witnessing a rookie wiping the floor with alonso?



#689 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 15:30

That implies something other than Hamilton and Alonso being roughly equal.

#690 Kalmake

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 15:35

This topic should be renamed to F1's Greatest Arguments.

#691 superdelphinus

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 15:36

i'm surprised that the 2007 season isn't discussed more often

#692 Radion

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 15:58

That implies something other than Hamilton and Alonso being roughly equal.

It was hamilton's first season. Alonso just became world champion for the second time. I had expected alonso to beat somebody that litteraly had no experience whatsoever. But he didn't, a guy without experience beat a two times world champion. (Beat in the sense that he had better overall results, that's why he is ahead of alonso in the 2007 standings)

That is wiping the floor with alonso to me. :wave:

#693 7MGTEsup

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 16:15

That is wiping the floor with alonso to me. :wave:


My defenition of wiping the floor is very different to yours.

#694 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 16:23

It was hamilton's first season. Alonso just became world champion for the second time. I had expected alonso to beat somebody that litteraly had no experience whatsoever. But he didn't, a guy without experience beat a two times world champion. (Beat in the sense that he had better overall results, that's why he is ahead of alonso in the 2007 standings)

That is wiping the floor with alonso to me. :wave:


Yeah but you don't know how to use 'literally' and 'no experience whatsoever'.

#695 olliek88

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 16:37

Radion, Hamilton's did the equivalent of 23 grand prix distances during pre season testing, he is one of (if not the) best prepared rookie's ever and people forget 2007 was also Alonso's first season on the Bridgestone tyre, a tyre he had to learn from scratch, so although his experience was no doubt an advantage he didn't have as much of a knowledge advantage over Hamilton by the time Australia came around as you'd think.

Suggesting either Hamilton or Alonso is a vastly better driver than the other, based on the evidence we have available, is either naive or "fanboyism".

#696 Atreiu

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 16:49

Change "wiping the floor" for "giving him so much trouble his relationship with the team ended in monumental catastrophe followed by an early departure" and that's more like it.

edit: If I got the numbers right, Alonso did the equivalent of 16.7 GPs of testing before the seaosn began. So he was no stranger to the team, car or Bridgestone.

Edited by Atreiu, 07 August 2013 - 17:07.


#697 Radion

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 16:50

Radion, Hamilton's did the equivalent of 23 grand prix distances during pre season testing, he is one of (if not the) best prepared rookie's ever and people forget 2007 was also Alonso's first season on the Bridgestone tyre, a tyre he had to learn from scratch, so although his experience was no doubt an advantage he didn't have as much of a knowledge advantage over Hamilton by the time Australia came around as you'd think.

Suggesting either Hamilton or Alonso is a vastly better driver than the other, based on the evidence we have available, is either naive or "fanboyism".

You're right, I should take 'wiping' back.
In terms of expierence though: Alonso took the fight to both raikkonen and schumacher. He knew what it was like fighting for the championship, unlike hamilton.

#698 olliek88

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 17:24

Checking that, I became shocked to find out who had scored the most points on the full grid from Hungary 2006 on. When I made the maths I remembered having heard it on ITV , but had forgotten.

No one would guess it without looking back and doing the maths!!


Button.  ;)

No cheating either, i remember him saying it pre 2007 in the hope it was a sign he could challenge for the championship that year. Wonder how that worked out...

#699 olliek88

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 17:29

I suspected that this might come up. I would argue that Williams had the stronger driver line up, whilst Benetton continually switched between Jos and JJ Lehto, which did neither driver any favours. If you compared the '92 and '93 challengers to the '94 car, the difference is astounding. Schumacher's ban and DSQs helped the team massively to the WCC.

I assume you highlighted the MP4-16 as an issue also, so I will comment. The car was third fastest over the course of the season, falling behind BMW Williams in only their second year as a partnership. They should have challenged for the title, but it was sewn up by Ferrari in Hungary. The car was not fast enough, regardless of reliability (which I have not really mentioned as Mercedes was more responsible than Newey for the dogs of '02 and '06 for instance).


Very good points.

I guess it comes down to how you define "stinker" as well!

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#700 BillBald

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 00:14

i'm surprised that the 2007 season isn't discussed more often


I blame the mods