20 replies to this topic

[F.M.]

Zytek Motorsport @ZytekMotorsport
@RacecarEngineer development focus is now on Hybrid Systems for 2014 Regulations (F1 & WEC) but cant say too much about that at this stage.

Zytek Motorsport @ZytekMotorsport
@RacecarEngineer Maybe we will do a whole power unit ourselves. #ZytekF1

Zytek Motorsport @ZytekMotorsport
@RacecarEngineer Certainly we have all the elements needed for it in our skills/experience plus the regs reset gives newcomers a chance...

http://www.racecar-e...-f1-power-unit/

So we have a possible 4th engine in 2014

Edited by F.M., 20 March 2013 - 12:18.

[eronrules]

no Fu**ing way they can pull an engine from scratch for 2014, maybe 2016, even then i'd not think anyone will bother to buy one, when both mercedes and Ferrari are under-customered. and with all the talks about Honda coming, how much do you think the chances of a private manufacturer like Judd getting any customer.

[maverick69]

Don't Zytek supply KERS to Merc?

[maverick69]

no Fu**ing way they can pull an engine from scratch for 2014, maybe 2016, even then i'd not think anyone will bother to buy one, when both mercedes and Ferrari are under-customered. and with all the talks about Honda coming, how much do you think the chances of a private manufacturer like Judd getting any customer.

Depends if an automotive manufacturer gives them a bunch of dosh so they can stick their badge on it.....

[eronrules]

Depends if an automotive manufacturer gives them a bunch of dosh so they can stick their badge on it.....

depends on which manufacturer, and even then, designing a new engine now, while all others are running on the dyno means at best they can mount an engine on the dyno at the middle of next season and possible usable engine by 2015

then again, if i assume what you're pointing at, Honda won't outsource their engine, they have too much pride in it. they'll build it in Japan, like all their previous engines.

[maverick69]

depends on which manufacturer, and even then, designing a new engine now, while all others are running on the dyno means at best they can mount an engine on the dyno at the middle of next season and possible usable engine by 2015

then again, if i assume what you're pointing at, Honda won't outsource their engine, they have too much pride in it. they'll build it in Japan, like all their previous engines.

Lol. Apart from the fact that they did most of the design and development work - and built their last engines in leafy Bracknell......

Edited by maverick69, 20 March 2013 - 13:20.

[Talisman]

Lol. Apart from the fact that they did most of the design and development work - and built their last engines in leafy Bracknell......

Umm no, designed and manufactured in Tochigi, shipped to Bracknell where they were assembled, stored and maintained.

I think the key with the Zytek statement is WEC, unless another manufacturer that isn't Honda is funding things I wouldn't have thought they would have the resources to make a competitive power unit.

[Petroltorque]

I think people don't understand how innovation in engineering works. Many of the discoveries/ improvements in technology are done by independents with little more than seed money. It's only then that the big companies buy in. Nothing illustrates that more than oil exploration or even software technology.
Zytek's outlay for the project won't be as big as the manufacturers as they have less overheads and they already possess ERS technology which is the real budget killer.
F1 needs an independent engine supplier that can provide an affordable engine for privateer teams. Hard pressed teams won't be helped by having to fork out a quarter of their budget on powertrains. At present Renault and Mercedes provide competitive customer deals, that cannot be said about Ferrari, who's supply is always complicated by Maranello's political manoeuvres.

[BackmarkerUK]

Depends if an automotive manufacturer gives them a bunch of dosh so they can stick their badge on it.....

An automotive manufacturer...like Marussia?

I don't see it happening, personally. PURE's difficulty getting customers, despite having solely worked on a 2014 engine and having the expertise of Gilles Simon, shows that there isn't really the market for another engine supplier in F1 (though I would personally love to see more engines in the sport).

[Talisman]

I think people don't understand how innovation in engineering works. Many of the discoveries/ improvements in technology are done by independents with little more than seed money. It's only then that the big companies buy in. Nothing illustrates that more than oil exploration or even software technology.

You're talking about innovations in a new field, not development and refinement of an existing technology to suit new regulations. With the latter its the massive resources and funding that manufacturers and other multinationals that make a difference. If we were talking about an entirely new powersource (like fuel cell racing) I'd understand your point but small capacity petrol engines with turbo and energy recovery is a fairly mature area. Small independents exploring novel development pathways are unlikely to win against large multinationals in this situation.

[maverick69]

Umm no, designed and manufactured in Tochigi, shipped to Bracknell where they were assembled, stored and maintained.

I think the key with the Zytek statement is WEC, unless another manufacturer that isn't Honda is funding things I wouldn't have thought they would have the resources to make a competitive power unit.

They manufactured a fair few parts. But a lot of it was done in the uk.

If it wasn't - then why not send them over as "crate" engines? I've seen it with my own eyes!

Edited by maverick69, 20 March 2013 - 13:34.

[ed24f1]

... that cannot be said about Ferrari, who's supply is always complicated by Maranello's political manoeuvres.

Yeah, Toro Rosso always help Ferrari more than any other team, say Red Bull...

[eronrules]

They manufactured a fair few parts. But a lot of it was done in the uk.

If it wasn't - then why not send them over as "crate" engines? I've seen it with my own eyes!

they are send in crate, and then dis-assemble and re-assembled. there is a documentary on this

life of Honda formula 1 engine

[Petroltorque]

You're talking about innovations in a new field, not development and refinement of an existing technology to suit new regulations. With the latter its the massive resources and funding that manufacturers and other multinationals that make a difference. If we were talking about an entirely new powersource (like fuel cell racing) I'd understand your point but small capacity petrol engines with turbo and energy recovery is a fairly mature area. Small independents exploring novel development pathways are unlikely to win against large multinationals in this situation.

No I'm not. Ilmor was the independent that provided the base for the Mercedes V10. Williams Hybrid power was formed from a buyout of an existing hybrid technology company. Zytek did most of the initial work for Mercedes on their KERS system. There's nothing to prevent Zytek tying in with Cosworth on the Turbo side. As I understood it Cosworth's design concept was reliant on the ERS being provided by Zytek.
The bottom line is 3 suppliers for 11 F1 teams simply is not enough.

[Petroltorque]

Yeah, Toro Rosso always help Ferrari more than any other team, say Red Bull...

but Sauber seem quite acquiescent. Perez being told to " hold off" on Alonso during last year's Malaysian GP sticks in my mind. Massa being shoehorned into a Sauber seat early in his career..The examples are numerable.
STR remain insulated from this influence in that they are wholly funded by Red Bull.

Edited by Petroltorque, 20 March 2013 - 13:47.

[maverick69]

they are send in crate, and then dis-assemble and re-assembled. there is a documentary on this

life of Honda formula 1 engine

And that's mostly from 2001........

[Sakae]

No I'm not. Ilmor was the independent that provided the base for the Mercedes V10. Williams Hybrid power was formed from a buyout of an existing hybrid technology company. Zytek did most of the initial work for Mercedes on their KERS system. There's nothing to prevent Zytek tying in with Cosworth on the Turbo side. As I understood it Cosworth's design concept was reliant on the ERS being provided by Zytek.
The bottom line is 3 suppliers for 11 F1 teams simply is not enough.

On which analysis this assessment of yours is based on? Anyone who ever set-up an operational manufacturing facility will tell you, that resources are usually geared up to certain predicted capacity output, and if you cut on orders, prorated cost per unit will go up, and someone will have to pay for it. But then, maybe that's not your money, or a concern.

Edited by Sakae, 20 March 2013 - 14:01.

[aray]

An automotive manufacturer...like Marussia?

I don't see it happening, personally. PURE's difficulty getting customers, despite having solely worked on a 2014 engine and having the expertise of Gilles Simon, shows that there isn't really the market for another engine supplier in F1 (though I would personally love to see more engines in the sport).

price will be the deciding factor...i heard a single unit will cost around $4 million.....if somebody can offer a engine at $2 million a piece(they just need to keep the engine power at competitive level),that mean $10 million saving for a season...for the bottom two,such money are helluva lot....

[Fastcake]

On which analysis this assessment of yours is based on? Anyone who ever set-up an operational manufacturing facility will tell you, that resources are usually geared up to certain predicted capacity output, and if you cut on orders, prorated cost per unit will go up, and someone will have to pay for it. But then, maybe that's not your money, or a concern.

It may be more cost-efficient for each manufacturer to supply a larger number of teams, but it leaves the sport far too dependent on them. If we only have three suppliers, when one pulls out - and they will eventually - we may have a situation where the other two aren't able to fill the gap. Whereas if there were four or five engine manufacturers we'll be in much better shape to withstand one of them in leaving. Not to mention multiple suppliers will give much better competition, now that engines won't be eternally frozen.

[ApexMouse]

I believe that most of the engine is effectively frozen before the season start next year. I may be confusing that with homologation however.

[Sakae]

It may be more cost-efficient for each manufacturer to supply a larger number of teams, but it leaves the sport far too dependent on them. If we only have three suppliers, when one pulls out - and they will eventually - we may have a situation where the other two aren't able to fill the gap. Whereas if there were four or five engine manufacturers we'll be in much better shape to withstand one of them in leaving. Not to mention multiple suppliers will give much better competition, now that engines won't be eternally frozen.

I am not entirely on board with this. First of all, it is reasonable to assume, that contractual safeguards are in place that prevent suppliers from changing their minds too quickly, thus this is most likely non-issue.

I haven't done any in-depth calculations other than on my napkin, but it is my opinion that no sane company in the world will get into risky F1 business whilst holding volatile orders what could be for only perhaps one or two sets of engines with teams that one day are in, next day they are out.

Engine competition? Haven't seen any for years, and another x-amount of suppliers will not change that; today's regulation are set up for that. I hate it, but I am not in charge, thus as a fan, I can only take it, or leave it.

Edited by Sakae, 20 March 2013 - 15:02.