635 replies to this topic

[crespo]

Figured someone should start this one eventually, seeing how Massa now seems much more comfortable with the car. Chances are high this could be a competitive season between the two.

[understeer]

I think Ferrari have signed Massa for 2013 clearly stating that he is No 2 driver in the team. Even in the press conference today Pat Fry says that Massa's form is good for constructor championship which means they never look at him as WDC material. It will change if Massa is well ahead and it becomes mathematically impossible for Alonso to be WDC.

[Ravenak]

It's a good thing Massa has bettered his performance lately, this will surely push FA even more to the limit.

It's the only thing that he missed, a real ally.

[CrucialXtreme]

Watching onboards today in Sepang I noticed Fernando being much more nice to the tyres than Felipe even if it meant short shifting. I think with their current driving styles Fer can get more life out of the tyres while on average maintaining better lap times over a stint. Obviously I could be wrong.

The problem we have with this thread is points are only awarded on Sunday, not in Free Practice & not in Quali. However no matter what happens during the race someone is going to claim that Ferrari is catering to Fernando and leaving Massa out to dry. In all seriousness people asked last week after Quali if Ferrari would change Felipe's gearbox. Absurd as it is to think that, with thoughts like that there won't be any intelligent discussion on the topic.

Felipe is driving well. I'm an Alonso fan to any that know me, but a Ferrari fan first & foremost. I did notice in Fernando's comments after FP1 & 2 that he mentioned not having the correct balance or he could've had a better lap. In all honesty it sounded like an excuse to me. That said I'm not sure Felipe can outperform Fer in most GP's but people seem to have forgotten that prior to Felipe's accident he was one of the quickest in F1. Yeah he's been **** past couple of years but he's regained confidence and isn't to be taken lightly when feeling comfortable in the car. Obviously most will be keeping an eye on this inter-team battle.

I hope both drivers do well this year because Ferrari needs to win WCC this year. And next.

[HuddersfieldTerrier1986]

It's a benefit for Fernando if Felipe can be quick enough to take points off Lotus, Red Bull etc.

[Astro]

This thread is going to be enjoyable to read until Ferrari picks one of both drivers to fight for the championship. From then on, it will become a whining festival. But anyway, better to have it all here rather than jumping from one thread to another. Who knows, maybe Massa will be this year the Chosen One™.

Edited by Astro, 22 March 2013 - 15:47.

[Ricardo F1]

This thread is going to be enjoyable to read until Ferrari picks one of both drivers to fight for the championship.

Uh, that happened three years ago.

[Astro]

Uh, that happened three years ago.

...and 2 years ago, and last year, and in this year at some point.

[Wander]

Massa has out-qualified Alonso three times in a row now. He's in a really good form right now, and would have already finished ahead of him in a race a couple of times last season if he wasn't having to support Alonso's title bid. I think he should be able to break that streak this year if he keeps it up.

It's still a little bit difficult to imagine Massa actually challenging to outscore Alonso over a season or anything like that, but I would be pleased to see that.

[03011969]

The evidence suggests Ferrari let their drivers race until a point in the season when it is beneficial to back one driver. The idea that they back one driver from the outset cannot be backed up. For example, when Kimi was ahead of Massa, Kimi got the preferences. When Massa was ahead of Kimi, Massa got the preferences.

In their previous years together Alonso has clearly been the quicker driver most of the time, but if Massa's consistently putting Alonso in the shade this year he'll have the same shot for the title as Alonso will if the positions are reversed.

I expect Alonso to be quicker than Massa overall this year, but expect it to be closer than the lat two years. Massa proved, in missing the WDC by 1 point, that he has (or had) WDC potential within him so will be giving Alonso a lot more to think about this year.

For those who think Massa has no.2 written into his contract, some evidence rather than childish and spiteful conjecture would be a welcome change.

Edited by 3011969, 23 March 2013 - 00:01.

[tvianna]

It's a benefit for Fernando if Felipe can be quick enough to take points off Lotus, Red Bull etc.

Agree, but the problem is if Massa begins to take points off Alonso. It's well known that he doesn't like at all being pushed by a teammate.

[SunnyENTP]

Sorry to say but this thread is even more pointless than the Vettel V Webber thread. There can be only one outcome in 90% of the races.

[Ravenak]

Massa has out-qualified Alonso three times in a row now. He's in a really good form right now, and would have already finished ahead of him in a race a couple of times last season if he wasn't having to support Alonso's title bid. I think he should be able to break that streak this year if he keeps it up.

It's still a little bit difficult to imagine Massa actually challenging to outscore Alonso over a season or anything like that, but I would be pleased to see that.

Alonso didn't have the DRS on the first straight in Melbourne and Massa benefited from a last fast lap done 1min30s after Alonso in drying conditions.

And only undercut him by a few hundredths.

[Wander]

Alonso didn't have the DRS on the first straight in Melbourne and Massa benefited from a last fast lap done 1min30s after Alonso in drying conditions.

And only undercut him by a few hundredths.

He still out-qualified Alonso three times in a row. I'm not saying that I expect him to keep on doing that regularly, but this weekend could again be interesting.

[fabr68]

It is amusing to see the forum mood change from "fire Massa" to "Massa better than Alonso".

Massa is a great driver and has defeated Raikkonen over a season. Being competitive and challenging Alonso can only be good for Ferrari. Both drivers need each other to take points off the competition. Despite the hater moaning there is no doubt Ferrari will let them fight until one of them is out of contention.

[Ravenak]

He still out-qualified Alonso three times in a row. I'm not saying that I expect him to keep on doing that regularly, but this weekend could again be interesting.

He outqualified him once "in a row". 2012 does not count.

[abc]

Alonso didn't have the DRS on the first straight in Melbourne and Massa benefited from a last fast lap done 1min30s after Alonso in drying conditions.

And only undercut him by a few hundredths.

Alonso was just 7 sec. in front of Massa on the track.

[rasul]

This thread is going to be enjoyable to read until Ferrari picks one of both drivers to fight for the championship. From then on, it will become a whining festival. But anyway, better to have it all here rather than jumping from one thread to another. Who knows, maybe Massa will be this year the Chosen One (Benny Hill™).

I think the Chosen one has been already chosen. LdM made it pretty obvious when he said he does not want 'two roosters in the same henhouse,' clearly meaning that he doesn't consider Massa a 'rooster,' as opposed to Vettel and Alonso. The only chance Massa's got if he somehow gets comfortably ahead of Alonso in the WDC standings early on(say, Alonso has a DNF or a bad race). Then Ferrari would give him a chance.

[Wander]

He outqualified him once "in a row". 2012 does not count.

Dude, I don't know what your problem is, but there are actually F1 statistics that carry over from the previous season. Like, they do have records for most wins in a row even if the streak started at the tail end of one year and continued in the next season.

Again, I am not saying that I rate Massa higher than Alonso. I'm just saying that he seems to have found such a great form at the end of last year that he's been more or less matching Alonso for a few races now, and I find that very intriguing, and on a personal level, hope that he can keep it up.

[Ravenak]

Dude, I don't know what your problem is, but there are actually F1 statistics that carry over from the previous season. Like, they do have records for most wins in a row even if the streak started at the tail end of one year and continued in the next season.

No ****?

This doesn't apply here, as we're not talking statistics but performance. It's not the same car, not the same tyres, different conditions. Nobody cares about 2012 anymore, it doesn't make sense to compare it to 2013.

[tarmac]

Alonso will pull same backroom bullshit like in 2010 if its a problem

[Fondmetal]

Sad, but they would never let Massa win a Ferrari WDC, that would be a pr disaster.

[Astro]

I think the Chosen one has been already chosen.;) LdM made it pretty obvious when he said he does not want 'two roosters in the same henhouse,' clearly meaning that he doesn't consider Massa a 'rooster,' as opposed to Vettel and Alonso. The only chance Massa's got if he somehow gets comfortably ahead of Alonso in the WDC standings early on(say, Alonso has a DNF or a bad race). Then Ferrari would give him a chance.

It's two different things. LdM said he doesn't want to have two top drivers in the same team, just like McLaren or Red Bull. It is clear that Ferrari thinks it has better chances to win the championship with Alonso. That's clear for them and for anyone. That doesn't mean they are going to hinder Massa in favor of Alonso from race one.

But I agree that Massa has the short end of the stick. He is the one who has to show he can do better than Alonso if he is going to be given the chance to race for the WDC. And I don't think he has too much time to prove it. That however, it is not unique to Ferrari. Neither Red Bull nor McLaren would even consider giving Webber or Button (when Hamilton was there) number one status unless it was absolutely clear Vettel or Hamilton had almost no chances to win (in the context of being close in points in the WDC).

It also has to be said that Massa's performance has been so poor for the last three years that the number 1 status has been a no contest at Ferrari. But that also happened during 2009 with Hamilton and Kovalainen. So again, nothing unique.

Edited by Astro, 22 March 2013 - 17:24.

[kosmos]

Alonso will pull same backroom bullshit like in 2010 if its a problem

One thing it's for sure, that you will keep talking BS about Alonso no matter what he do, good or bad.

[Wander]

No ****?

This doesn't apply here, as we're not talking statistics but performance. It's not the same car, not the same tyres, different conditions. Nobody cares about 2012 anymore, it doesn't make sense to compare it to 2013.

I don't know why you are being so hostile. I'm just looking at this from the perspective of them being team mates. Massa has out-qualified Alonso in three successive Formula 1 Grand Prix qualifying sessions with both drivers driving a Ferrari Formula 1 car. He has beaten Alonso in an official Formula 1 qualifying session three times in a row. Two of these occured in the two final races of 2012 driving the F2012 Scuderia Ferrari and the latest one was driving the 2013 F138 Scuderia Ferrari.

What this goes to show is that Massa has been able to transfer his good form to a new car and new tyres in a new season. Well done Felipe!

I know I'm spelling it out as if you're a child right here, and I really am, but that's just cause I'm astonished that you can't see where I'm coming from.

Of course it's a new year! Of course things have changed and all that. But the fact is, Massa's improved form started last year. In fact, many people expected him to struggle once again in a new car in the beginning of the season, but that's not what happened in Australia. I just wanted to point out just that. That Massa has been able to keep whatever he found at the end of last year to the beginning of this year, or so it would seem.

Now, we are obviously only one race in, so everything I say about this year could still prove out to be completely incorrect. But the initial signs are that the Ferrari duo are going to be much, much closer this year than they were last year.

By the way, Alonso has finished ahead of Massa in 30 successive races that both drivers have finished. That is also the streak that I was referring to in my first post in this thread that I expected Massa to be able to break this year. That obviously does depend on a few things like Alonso not getting to a definitive points lead in the championship, cause then once again Ferrari wouldn't necessarily allow it to happen. But again, it's so very early in the season. We will see.

Edited by Wander, 22 March 2013 - 17:23.

[Ravenak]

I don't know why you are being so hostile. I'm just looking at this from the perspective of them being team mates. Massa has out-qualified Alonso in three successive Formula 1 Grand Prix qualifying sessions with both drivers driving a Ferrari Formula 1 car. He has beaten Alonso in an official Formula 1 qualifying session three times in a row. Two of these occured in the two final races of 2012 driving the F2012 Scuderia Ferrari and the latest one was driving the 2013 F138 Scuderia Ferrari.

Please stop taking me for a fool, no need to repeat it over and over, I know my facts just as well as you and I know what you mean by that. You, on the other hand, don't seem to understand my point of view, which is that there is no trend to see relating to Alonso, this is just Massa becoming a bit less slow.

Not only you try to outline trends from only 3 (three!! see, this is me repeating myself) qualifying sessions, but you also ignore the conditions. FA had a handicap in Melbourne and was nonetheless much faster than Felipe both in qualifying and during the race.

Edited by Ravenak, 22 March 2013 - 17:35.

[MortenF1]

Massa has the potential to be slightly quicker in qualifying, but he will not, consistently, be able to beat Alonso in the races, even if Ferrari had had equal status between their drivers.

I think if Massa can qualify right with Alonso here, or even beat him again, he'll gain momentum and confidence, and with that he should run Alonso very, very close.

[tvianna]

Massa has the potential to be slightly quicker in qualifying, but he will not, consistently, be able to beat Alonso in the races, even if Ferrari had had equal status between their drivers.

I think if Massa can qualify right with Alonso here, or even beat him again, he'll gain momentum and confidence, and with that he should run Alonso very, very close.

Exactly my point of view.
But Alonso usually doesn't know to handle a situation like this. In some of his recent quotes, he seems to me less comfortable with this renewed Massa.

[Dzeidzei]

The point is that Felipe never came back from his accident until late last season when his seat was under real threath. That shows in recent results. He can be very quick as we have seen. Dont think he can beat Fred in race distance though. And a big part of that is the fact that Fred is number one.

[Fontainebleau]

Agree, but the problem is if Massa begins to take points off Alonso. It's well known that he doesn't like at all being pushed by a teammate.

To be honest, I don't think that he likes it better or worse than any other driver on the grid. But that is one of those "myths" that people keep on repeating.

But Alonso usually doesn't know to handle a situation like this. In some of his recent quotes, he seems to me less comfortable with this renewed Massa.

I have missed those, could you please post them here?


I am glad that Massa is performing this year; last year it was disgusting to see so many "Massa should be fired, Massa is over" threads. I still think that Alonso will do better, but that is no demerit to the quality of Massa's driving.

Edited by Fontainebleau, 22 March 2013 - 18:46.

[DutchQuicksilver]

I think Ferrari have signed Massa for 2013 clearly stating that he is No 2 driver in the team. Even in the press conference today Pat Fry says that Massa's form is good for constructor championship which means they never look at him as WDC material. It will change if Massa is well ahead and it becomes mathematically impossible for Alonso to be WDC.

They never believed Massa to be WDC material in 2008 as well. Kimi was clearly number one as the reigning world champion, Massa scored zero points from two races and we all know he was world champion for 15 seconds in Brazil. So, wouldn't rule anything out.

[Fontainebleau]

I think the Chosen one has been already chosen.;) LdM made it pretty obvious when he said he does not want 'two roosters in the same henhouse,' clearly meaning that he doesn't consider Massa a 'rooster,' as opposed to Vettel and Alonso. The only chance Massa's got if he somehow gets comfortably ahead of Alonso in the WDC standings early on(say, Alonso has a DNF or a bad race). Then Ferrari would give him a chance.

Well, Massa already beat one of LdM's roosters, so I'd say he would be welcomed by the team to do the same again if he can.

Edit: I see DutchQuickSilver beat me to the same reference!

Edited by Fontainebleau, 22 March 2013 - 18:49.

[Enzoluis]

The point is that Felipe never came back from his accident until late last season when his seat was under real threath.

To be precise he started to drive decently when his seat was secured.

[Vesuvius]

To be precise he started to drive decently when his seat was secured.

actually he was given three races time to show what he can do...and he did.

[Ravenak]

actually he was given three races time to show what he can do...and he did.

No. he's been given 3 whole seasons to do that, and he didn't.

[primus]

i wish Massa wins Alonso this weekend!

[ed24f1]

To be honest, I don't think that he likes it better or worse than any other driver on the grid. But that is one of those "myths" that people keep on repeating.

Can you name another current driver that has handled it worse?

[Hanzo]

i wish Massa wins Alonso this weekend!

That post tells everything really. Alonso fights for the championship. And Massa does the same, but many people here "support" Massa just because they want to see Alonso being beaten by him. So they reduce Massa's target to: "beating Fernando"
So this people are the first not giving Massa credit. Yet we will have to read long speeches from them about fairness in the sport and criticism about any Ferrari decision. Right.

[Fontainebleau]

Can you name another current driver that has handled it worse?

Do you think that, say, Schumacher was milder than Alonso? Prost? Senna? Vettel? Hamilton? Do you remember their reactions when being beaten by their teammates?

[primus]

That post tells everything really. Alonso fights for the championship. And Massa does the same, but many people here "support" Massa just because they want to see Alonso being beaten by him. So they reduce Massa's target to: "beating Fernando"
So this people are the first not giving Massa credit. Yet we will have to read long speeches from them about fairness in the sport and criticism about any Ferrari decision. Right.

i think you are taking it way too complicated... i just wish good result for Felipe and winning Alonso would boost his confidence a bit. Nothing else.

[ed24f1]

Do you think that, say, Schumacher was milder than Alonso? Prost? Senna? Vettel? Hamilton? Do you remember their reactions when being beaten by their teammates?

Of course I'm not saying of all time, hence I inserted 'current'. I would argue that, as far as we know, Alonso's reactions have been worse - such as his behind the scenes subterfuge in 2007. Vettel can be petulant, but he can be petulant when anything goes wrong, not necessarily to do with his team-mate. Same as Hamilton, but I wouldn't rank him ahead of Alonso personally.

[Hanzo]

i think you are taking it way too complicated... i just wish good result for Felipe and winning Alonso would boost his confidence a bit. Nothing else.

I used your post to make example, it was not personal.
Anyway to beat Fernando should not be his objetive. What Massa needs, after 68 races without a win (record at Ferrari) is a solid race and being the first crossing the chequered flag imho. There is no bigger boost to his confidence than that.

[mkoscevic]

While we don't have details of driver management @ Ferrari and all the influences going on there, it's clear that Massa is lagging behind Alonso on Sundays.

Be it laptimes, strategy or push_when_you_need_and_get_the_job_done - Alonso is doing a better job obviously.

Go Massa!

[Ikebana]

That post tells everything really. Alonso fights for the championship. And Massa does the same, but many people here "support" Massa just because they want to see Alonso being beaten by him. So they reduce Massa's target to: "beating Fernando"
So this people are the first not giving Massa credit. Yet we will have to read long speeches from them about fairness in the sport and criticism about any Ferrari decision. Right.

I agree.

And to be honest... There are people who seem to believe F1 is like Eden or some kind of paradise where everybody must be given the same preference. But fortunately this is the real world, where if you're better, you'll be given more support within a company. If you have a lot of ups and dows, then that's reasonable, but don't expect to be given the same treatment than someone else hat barely has downs. It's the same here really in F1.

[Fontainebleau]

Of course I'm not saying of all time, hence I inserted 'current'. I would argue that, as far as we know, Alonso's reactions have been worse - such as his behind the scenes subterfuge in 2007. Vettel can be petulant, but he can be petulant when anything goes wrong, not necessarily to do with his team-mate. Same as Hamilton, but I wouldn't rank him ahead of Alonso personally.

I am not sure as to what you refer to when you talk of a "behind the scenes subterfuge"; but let me remind you that the acrimony at McLaren in 2007 was started by Hamilton complaining to the press after Monaco, and later by him not honouring the extra-lap inter-team agreement in Hungary. I am not saying that Alonso covered himself in glory with his retaliation, but you seem to put far more emphasis on his reaction than on Hamilton's previous antics.

In any case, I do not want to steer this thread too much off-topic; if we want to continue the discussion, we can bring back the "ultimate Hamilton vs Alonso thread", which Robefc set up to make sure that the 2007 discussion was kept within its boundaries. I have to say that it has worked really well till now, and it used to be a source of fun during the long months of the off-season

[03011969]

Sad, but they would never let Massa win a Ferrari WDC, that would be a pr disaster.

So why do you think he was allowed to get so close in 2008?

Were Ferrari happy to see Hamilton win rather than Massa?

[Rikhart]

So why do you think he was allowed to get so close in 2008?

Were Ferrari happy to see Hamilton win rather than Massa?

Totally off-topic, but to explain your question:

http://f1bias.com/20...santander-2008/

[Fontainebleau]

Totally off-topic, but to explain your question:

http://f1bias.com/20...santander-2008/

Yes, a blog that defines itself as "A biased view on racing" (have a look at the top right corner) is exactly what people need to be convinced of any conspiracy theory that is presented to them

[Astro]

They never believed Massa to be WDC material in 2008 as well. Kimi was clearly number one as the reigning world champion, Massa scored zero points from two races and we all know he was world champion for 15 seconds in Brazil. So, wouldn't rule anything out.

[Wander]

Yes, a blog that defines itself as "A biased view on racing" (have a look at the top right corner) is exactly what people need to be convinced of any conspiracy theory that is presented to them

At least it's honest!