35 replies to this topic

[V8 Fireworks]

Webber had 3.5s lead

Vettel is allowed to pit first

Webber loses all his lead, and then probably the race victory

Unfar pit decision?

Vettel should NOT have been allowed to make final stop first IMO

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 24 March 2013 - 09:32.

[SunnyENTP]

Oh please no one stooped Webber from putting first

[ArkZ]

" Was Massa screwed by Ferrari already?" how about now, that first driver "must" be first in the pits. Todays show from Redbull and Merc should shut Ferrari haters....

[Lights]

As much as I dislike Vettel and Red Bull, this wasn't unfair. Webber was still leading after the pit stops. The point is, he just isn't good enough and he was keeping up Vettel for large parts of the race already. In the end, Vettel was going to attack him anyway and most likely win, whether he pitted first or second. Webber had the better tyres in the end and still couldn't win, so that's that.

[sv401]

Pathetic whining thread. Webber was not overtaken in the pits, but rather on the track, and if he pitted earlier, his tyres would have been older in the final stint, resulting in an even greater lap time difference. Webber was slower for most of the race (except when Vettel was holding back because of team orders or conserving the tyres), and it is only better pit strategy early in the race that put him temporarily in the lead in the first place. Given that Red Bull used team orders on Vettel repeatedly to stop him from attacking, and were apparently rather unhappy about the pass, to claim that the team was unfair to Webber is simply ridiculous and is mostly driven by the usual blind hatred towards Vettel. The faster Red Bull driver won the race on merit.

[choyothe]

Let's see.

Vettel gets taken in for slicks 2 laps too early, to a really dangerous position with inters behind, Mark gets ahead bc of this.

Vettel has to go 5 laps more on these tyres to get into clutches of Hamilton, Webber gets even more ahead.

Vettel catches Mark who is very slow, Seb told not to fight, Ham gets right behind. RB then takes Vettel after all others (!) to almost put Vettel behind both Mercs as well.

Vettel uses up his tyre to pass Ham and catch Webber, which finally (as it should) gives him the undercut.

All this time he was not for once allowed to fight Webber on track, and all of the strategy was made to make it impossible for him to pass him on the pits.

[MikeV1987]

Hell no, team orders were in favour of Webber (which Vettel did not follow)

If anything Vettel showed us why he is a 3xWDC today.

[V8 Fireworks]

As much as I dislike Vettel and Red Bull, this wasn't unfair. Webber was still leading after the pit stops. The point is, he just isn't good enough and he was keeping up Vettel for large parts of the race already. In the end, Vettel was going to attack him anyway and most likely win, whether he pitted first or second. Webber had the better tyres in the end and still couldn't win, so that's that.

Status - 21 : HOLD STATION

Vettel ignored it.


Webber had his engined turned down.

Not expecting to be challenged.


100 % conclusive in my book.

RBR

Great job on the car.

Pit wall: Horner, Marko?? Someone screwed up BIG TIME

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 24 March 2013 - 10:06.

[Meanbeakin]

Status - 21 : HOLD STATION

Vettel ignored it.


Webber had his engined turned down.

Not expecting to be challenged.


100 % conclusive in my book.

RBR

Great job on the car.

Pit wall: Horner, Marko?? Someone screwed up BIG TIME

After Turkey 2010, I'm gonna wait until the post race explanations come out before I judge.

[SpaMaster]

I don't know what the real story is behind the whole thing with the team and I would wait for that before giving an overall view on that. I am not supporting the way Vettel did it. But Webber is a bit of a hypocrite to say that the race was called off and Vettel should not have overtaken. We have seen Webber attack Vettel in the past in similar situations, and that too after stern warning from the team.

[sv401]

Status - 21 : HOLD STATION

Vettel ignored it.

So, you admit there were team orders in favor of Webber, and yet claim the team was unfair to him ? Would you still have the same view if the roles were reversed (you probably still remember "maintain the gap" from 2011) ? Probably no, and Webber would be (and indeed was in 2011) seen as a hero for fighting back against the evil team.
Vettel saved a set of fresh option tyres for the last stint, and it is not surprising at all that he tried to make the best use of that advantage.

By the way, if the team wanted to help Vettel, the best thing to do would have been to let him pass earlier when he was held up by Webber while being on a different tyre strategy. That was stupid not to do in the name of "equality", because it helped Hamilton gain P2, which in turn helped Webber gain those 4 seconds on Vettel who was stuck behind a slow Mercedes because of the bad strategy. And yet people try to make Webber look like a martyr

Edited by sv401, 24 March 2013 - 10:23.

[V8 Fireworks]

We have seen Webber attack Vettel in the past in similar situations, and that too after stern warning from the team.

That's true

BUT

It would have been much easier for Webber to block Vettel, if Webber had pitted first and kept his 3 second lead.

The way some others have posted make it sound like a 0.01s lead on cold tyres is the same as a 3s lead on warm tyres in their opinion. Webber would have had the latter, had he pitted first, and Vettel -- ignoring orders or not -- would not have had the chance to pass.

[Lights]

That's true

BUT

It would have been much easier for Webber to block Vettel, if Webber had pitted first and kept his 3 second lead.

The way some others have posted make it sound like a 0.01s lead on cold tyres is the same as a 3s lead on warm tyres in their opinion. Webber would have had the latter, had he pitted first, and Vettel -- ignoring orders or not -- would not have had the chance to pass.

As it was Vettel would have closed up anyway. The thing is that I don't know about engine turndowns on either car and how fast they really were. Hold position is something we've seen more often in the past, not just today....

[SpaMaster]

That's true

BUT

It would have been much easier for Webber to block Vettel, if Webber had pitted first and kept his 3 second lead.

The way some others have posted make it sound like a 0.01s lead on cold tyres is the same as a 3s lead on warm tyres in their opinion. Webber would have had the latter, had he pitted first, and Vettel -- ignoring orders or not -- would not have had the chance to pass.

Yeah, but then it was team's mistake to pit Vettel for the first stop when he was the leader and there was no need to play him guinea pig in that situation of cross over from intermediates to slicks. Vettel was the leader at that point and lost his lead not because of his mistake.

[F.M.]

Newey was quite pissed after Vettel overtook Webber and was waving/talking to Horner

[KnucklesAgain]

Vettel apologized in the press conference, said he didn't do it on purpose

[rt99]

Race fixing involving the two top teams and 4 drivers. Far worse than Ferrari asking the slower Massa to move over.

[fabr68]

OMG. If this Ferrari instead of Vettel/Red Bull, this forum would turn to ****.

[sv401]

Race fixing involving the two top teams and 4 drivers. Far worse than Ferrari asking the slower Massa to move over.

If asking the slower driver to move over is OK (or is it only when done by Ferrari ?), then Red Bull could easily have avoided the drama earlier in the race by telling Webber to move out of the way when he was holding up Vettel But I somehow suspect they would also have been hated at least as much in that case anyway, so there is no way to win. Red Bull and Vettel are evil and unsporting, no matter what.

[fabr68]

I bet Webber is super pissed.

How many times has he been asked to "hold station" towards the end of the race when he was faster than Vettel. I lost count really.

Cheap shot by Vettel. But hey, Vettel should expect the same kind of "courtesy" from Webber from now on.

Edited by fabr68, 24 March 2013 - 10:43.

[stillOrange]

I bet Webber is super pissed.

How many times has he been asked to "hold station" towards the end of the race when he was faster than Vettel. I lost count really.

Cheap shot by Vettel. But hey, Vettel should expect the same kind of "courtesy" from Webber from now on.

Come on, make an effort and name 5 races when he did hold station.

Last time I can remember it being broadcasted, Mark actually admitted that he ignored the order. He just didn't manage to overtake Seb.

On topic though: strategy wasn't unfair but it is unfair that Vettel ignored the orders. His apologies are moot now after the race.

[steen]

If asking the slower driver to move over is OK (or is it only when done by Ferrari ?), then Red Bull could easily have avoided the drama earlier in the race by telling Webber to move out of the way when he was holding up Vettel But I somehow suspect they would also have been hated at least as much in that case anyway, so there is no way to win. Red Bull and Vettel are evil and unsporting, no matter what.

If MW was so much slower, why didn't SV overtake? Gotta wait for team orders, I suppose...

[choyothe]

OMG. If this Ferrari instead of Vettel/Red Bull, this forum would turn to ****.

What is it now, vomit?

I bet Webber is super pissed.

How many times has he been asked to "hold station" towards the end of the race when he was faster than Vettel. I lost count really.

Cheap shot by Vettel. But hey, Vettel should expect the same kind of "courtesy" from Webber from now on.

Still waiting you to name those times, you bitter Alonso fan.

[sv401]

If MW was so much slower, why didn't SV overtake?

Because the pace difference (without having better tyres as well) was not enough at that point, but it was enough to compromise the strategy. Only at the end was it enough when it was combined with the advantage of new option tyres.

Edited by sv401, 24 March 2013 - 11:54.

[Realyn]

I kinda want to see the OP as a F1 team chef with refulling in place. You want to pit for fuel? No sorry, your teammate in front hasn't allowed that yet.

[sv401]

OMG. If this Ferrari instead of Vettel/Red Bull, this forum would turn to ****.

If this was Ferrari with Massa in Webber's role, then the problem would have been quietly sorted out well before the end of the race, be it by strategy, or - if necessary - simple position swapping.

[choyothe]

I kinda want to see the OP as a F1 team chef with refulling in place. You want to pit for fuel? No sorry, your teammate in front hasn't allowed that yet.

Or, your tyres are done after following another car closely for multiple laps before finally being able to pass? No, sorry, we will take your teammate conserving tyres and driving to the delta in first while you lap 5 seconds slower.

[LukeM]

The idiocy on these forums is rampant. Mark was on lower revs and on the tyre which was obviously way slower. Everyone else who had hards was struggling as well, while the mediums were flying. Look at Massa in the closing stages...

[Sakae]

Pathetic whining thread. Webber was not overtaken in the pits, but rather on the track, and if he pitted earlier, his tyres would have been older in the final stint, resulting in an even greater lap time difference. Webber was slower for most of the race (except when Vettel was holding back because of team orders or conserving the tyres), and it is only better pit strategy early in the race that put him temporarily in the lead in the first place. Given that Red Bull used team orders on Vettel repeatedly to stop him from attacking, and were apparently rather unhappy about the pass, to claim that the team was unfair to Webber is simply ridiculous and is mostly driven by the usual blind hatred towards Vettel. The faster Red Bull driver won the race on merit.

[One]

Webber had 3.5s lead

Vettel is allowed to pit first

Webber loses all his lead, and then probably the race victory

Unfar pit decision?

Vettel should NOT have been allowed to make final stop first IMO

This decision to stop them racing at the end of the last pit as fair. But the truth is this decision was NOT fairly implemented as Vettel pitted first. If you are claiming that then I totally agree.

While I agree with your statement there are some observation that does not confirm what has happened, and how it was implemented:
that it was WEBBER who should have pitted first, the team DID pit Vettel. This is the fact so this is not an issue of the team allowing Vettel to pit first. This is the issue that the team is making Vettel to lap Webber in the pit.

Quite Honestly, Webber drove excellently to keep him in front of Vettel after he pitted.

The Horner's operation is based on Nazi like false statements. The pit wall has operated to give Vettel advantage at the last pit stop and did not expect Webber to race against the manipulation made by the pit wall.

[AustinF1]

As much as I dislike Vettel and Red Bull, this wasn't unfair. Webber was still leading after the pit stops. The point is, he just isn't good enough and he was keeping up Vettel for large parts of the race already. In the end, Vettel was going to attack him anyway and most likely win, whether he pitted first or second. Webber had the better tyres in the end and still couldn't win, so that's that.

I don't care about who pitted first, but Vettel passed Webber because he didn't obey the previously agreed-to team order to turn down his engine to Multi 21 while Webber did. He attacked using a full-strength car to pass one that had been slowed.

It's really not that difficult to see.

The idiocy on these forums is rampant. Mark was on lower revs and on the tyre which was obviously way slower. Everyone else who had hards was struggling as well, while the mediums were flying. Look at Massa in the closing stages...

Lunacy, yes. Or willful ignorance.

Edited by AustinF1, 25 March 2013 - 09:00.

[choyothe]

I'm pretty sure Mark had turned his engine up before the fight after seeing Vettel harass him for 2 laps. This view is strengthened by the fact he was able to challenge Seb pretty hard on the following lap on DRS, you'd think Seb would've just immediately disappeared had Mark's engine been turned down still.

[MikeV1987]

I'm pretty sure Mark had turned his engine up before the fight after seeing Vettel harass him for 2 laps. This view is strengthened by the fact he was able to challenge Seb pretty hard on the following lap on DRS, you'd think Seb would've just immediately disappeared had Mark's engine been turned down still.

But what do we know! we must be idiots or ignorant according to some members here. That fight would have ended in the first DRS zone if Mark was really on low revs. Vettel hardly caught him off guard either.

Edited by MikeV1987, 25 March 2013 - 09:12.

[Nobody]

Doesn't matter, it appears there's no team orders at RB.

[One]

Doesn't matter, it appears there's no team at RB.

Corrected!

[Buttoneer]

Please discuss in one of the other threads dedicated to the matter.