490 replies to this topic

[yoyogetfunky]

Even though both Brawn and Wolff have said that Rosberg was marginal on fuel and tyres too........

I think we can safely assume now that Wolff says whatever Brawn tells him to say.

The fact remains that a) Nico said he had no fuel issues, and b) he wasnt told to adjust to Lewis pace for fuel reasons, just that Nico's request to overtake was answered with 'negative, negative', and c) that Lewis thinks Nico shouldv been up there, wich implies he also knew Nico had no fuel issues, and in fact praised him for driving a much more controlled race than himself.

Like I said, I always rated Brawn a lot, but this bullshit makes me wonder how much he screwed Rubens over in 2009, despite him saying that wasnt the case. From now on I wil take whatever he says, with a pinch of salt.

[maverick69]

I think we can safely assume now that Wolff says whatever Brawn tells him to say.

The fact remains that a) Nico said he had no fuel issues, and b) he wasnt told to adjust to Lewis pace for fuel reasons, just that Nico's request to overtake was answered with 'negative, negative', and c) that Lewis thinks Nico shouldv been up there, wich implies he also knew Nico had no fuel issues, and in fact praised him for driving a much more controlled race than himself.

Like I said, I always rated Brawn a lot, but this bullshit makes me wonder how much he screwed Rubens over in 2009, despite him saying that wasnt the case. From now on I wil take whatever he says, with a pinch of salt.

I stopped reading there.

Edited by maverick69, 08 April 2013 - 10:43.

[surbjits]

I stopped reading there.

Good for you.

I agree with his post whole-heartedly.

Edited by surbjits, 08 April 2013 - 10:53.

[yoyogetfunky]

I stopped reading there.

That is the smart thing to do as a Lewis apologist like yourself. The rest was based on facts proving they both were talking ****.

[CHIUNDA]

I think we can safely assume now that Wolff says whatever Brawn tells him to say.

The fact remains that a) Nico said he had no fuel issues, and b) he wasnt told to adjust to Lewis pace for fuel reasons, just that Nico's request to overtake was answered with 'negative, negative', and c) that Lewis thinks Nico shouldv been up there, wich implies he also knew Nico had no fuel issues, and in fact praised him for driving a much more controlled race than himself.

Like I said, I always rated Brawn a lot, but this bullshit makes me wonder how much he screwed Rubens over in 2009, despite him saying that wasnt the case. From now on I wil take whatever he says, with a pinch of salt.

You being a self professed fan of Vettel and Red Bull and a worshipper of Newey, I wouldn't expect less from you. You would be failing your fraternity if you said any different.

Edited by CHIUNDA, 08 April 2013 - 11:02.

[Muz Bee]

Quite why Brawn had no interest in securing this second place IF that was so easily within Rosberg's grasp is a mystery to me.

Fixed it for you Rob.
Some people making some huge assumptions is no mystery to me.

[maverick69]

That is the smart thing to do as a Lewis apologist like yourself. The rest was based on facts proving they both were talking ****.

What facts?

[CHIUNDA]

Fixed it for you Rob.
Some people making some huge assumptions is no mystery to me.

Ross KNEW Webber was low on fuel. Besides, slowing Nico to stay behind Lewis was not saving fuel for Nico so he should also have TOLD Nico to save fuel by ... (?)

[seahawk]

What is there to discuss. Mercedes did the right thing to give their lead driver more points and had their No.2 being a good No.2. Best way to handle it.

[malibu]

Interesting interview of Ross Brawn (french) "when Brawn try to justify himsel"
Brawn interview
Basically he says :

-there is no number one status in the team, it was not in Hamilton's contract.
-Someone had to take a decision.
-He didn't like to give this order and that wasn't in his sporting nature
-In the past, the team proved it isn't opposed to let drivers fight each other

More interesting :
- My decisions can't always be the good ones. If i make 70 to 80 % of good decisions than it means i do it right


It seems Ross Brawn realize he didn't do it right this time. He seems under pressure
With a top driver like Rosberg and the way it was done, it wasn't appreciated by mercedes. Rosberg is quick, he is young and german in a german team.
For mercedes image, it won't be good if rb try to favor Hamilton.
The context isn't the best one for mercedes. They lost to BMW in DTM last year (for their first participation) and it may have played a certain role in Haug resigning. DTM is very popular in germany who is the second biggest market after china.

Edited by malibu, 08 April 2013 - 11:53.

[BernieEc]

Almost 3 weeks and some are still on this debate. Especially since Force India issued the same sort of order and not a single blip from these same posters about that.

I wonder why, ahh of course yes....it does concern that kid from stevenage hence the raucous but at least it keeps the banter in the forum up due to the 3 weeks break.

[slmk]

Interesting interview of Ross Brawn (french) "when Brawn try to justify himsel"
Brawn interview
Basically he says :

-there is no number one status in the team, it was not in Hamilton's contract.
-Someone had to take a decision.
-He didn't like to give this order and that wasn't in his sporting nature
-In the past, the team proved it isn't opposed to let drivers fight each other

More interesting :
- My decisions can't always be the good ones. If i make 70 to 80 % of good decisions than it means i do it right


It seems Ross Brawn realize he didn't do it right this time. He seems under pressure
With a top driver like Rosberg and the way it was done, it wasn't appreciated by mercedes. Rosberg is quick, he is young and german in a german team.
For mercedes image, it won't be good if rb try to favor Hamilton.
The context isn't the best one for mercedes. They lost to BMW in DTM last year (for their first participation) and it may have played a certain role in Haug resigning. DTM is very popular in germany who is the second biggest market after china.

Pretty sure the USA is a bigger market than Germany (and likely China regarding German brands, but I may be wrong)...

[Torch]

Interesting interview of Ross Brawn (french) "when Brawn try to justify himsel"
Brawn interview
Basically he says :

-there is no number one status in the team, it was not in Hamilton's contract.
-Someone had to take a decision.
-He didn't like to give this order and that wasn't in his sporting nature
-In the past, the team proved it isn't opposed to let drivers fight each other

More interesting :
- My decisions can't always be the good ones. If i make 70 to 80 % of good decisions than it means i do it right


It seems Ross Brawn realize he didn't do it right this time. He seems under pressure
With a top driver like Rosberg and the way it was done, it wasn't appreciated by mercedes. Rosberg is quick, he is young and german in a german team.
For mercedes image, it won't be good if rb try to favor Hamilton.
The context isn't the best one for mercedes. They lost to BMW in DTM last year (for their first participation) and it may have played a certain role in Haug resigning. DTM is very popular in germany who is the second biggest market after china.

You forgot to quote an important part from that article:

"I do not have to make these decisions, but we would have seemed silly if both cars had not reached the finish after running out of fuel"

Question is, how much fuel did Rosberg have. Nobody knows, but everyone is speculating and calling it fact. I think he had infinite fuel and could have won the race

[undersquare]

Interesting interview of Ross Brawn (french) "when Brawn try to justify himsel"

More interesting :
- My decisions can't always be the good ones. If i make 70 to 80 % of good decisions than it means i do it right

It seems Ross Brawn realize he didn't do it right this time. He seems under pressure
With a top driver like Rosberg and the way it was done, it wasn't appreciated by mercedes. Rosberg is quick, he is young and german in a german team.

Lol, why do you think Mercedes went shopping for Hamilton, when they had Rosberg already? They want to start winning. Nico may turn out to be unexpectedly quick but he's not top 3 to take on SV/FA or we'd have noticed in 7 years, and so would Mercedes.

I'd have liked Rosberg to be allowed to race on but he was allowed 2 passes and couldn't make it stick, so with the fuel situation Brawn had all the reason he needed to call it off. Or all the pretext, if you want to see it like that, but either way Mercedes will NOT be backing Rosberg, unless he can show he's the better wdc candidate.

[P123]

Fixed it for you Rob.
Some people making some huge assumptions is no mystery to me.

The gap between the Merc duo and Red Bull duo was 10s when the fight was called off with 8 laps to go. I wouldn't even call the suggestions that Rosberg could have challenged the Bull's an assumption; more like la la land fiction.

Rosberg also took 20+ laps to get withing sniffing distance of his fuel troubled teammate. He was allowed to challenge. Twice. Hamilton's pace was controlled in the closing laps.

[Kvothe]

You forgot to quote an important part from that article:

"I do not have to make these decisions, but we would have seemed silly if both cars had not reached the finish after running out of fuel"

Question is, how much fuel did Rosberg have. Nobody knows, but everyone is speculating and calling it fact. I think he had infinite fuel and could have won the race

Individuals with agenda's often do that.

[halifaxf1fan]

Brawn is insistent that Nico did have fuel problems, just not to the extent that Lewis did, and I don't recall Webber slowing that much. To be a sitting duck would suggest that Webber woud have been defenceless if nasty Ross had just let Rosberg past Lewis. Quite why Brawn had no interest in securing this second place that was so easily withing Rosberg's grasp is a mystery to me.

My point would be that Rosberg wasn't released so we didn't have an opportunity to see if pressure from Rosberg would have exposed the suspected/indicated weakness in Webber. This is what happens when a decision is made, for whatever reason, to stop racing. Brawn made his decision, I see maybe he is now thinking that his decision wasn't the best in hindsight from his latest comments.

As for Rosberg having fuel problems, it wasn't an issue in the race as no fuel saving instructions were given and Ross didn't mention fuel at all when Rosberg was begging to go after the Red Bulls. If true it would have been an easy explanation for Ross to have given to Nico for the order. Lets just say that there was no evidence during the race of a fuel issue with Rosberg.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 08 April 2013 - 14:56.

[Markn93]

Interesting interview of Ross Brawn (french) "when Brawn try to justify himsel"
Brawn interview
Basically he says :

-there is no number one status in the team, it was not in Hamilton's contract.
-Someone had to take a decision.
-He didn't like to give this order and that wasn't in his sporting nature
-In the past, the team proved it isn't opposed to let drivers fight each other

More interesting :
- My decisions can't always be the good ones. If i make 70 to 80 % of good decisions than it means i do it right


It seems Ross Brawn realize he didn't do it right this time. He seems under pressure
With a top driver like Rosberg and the way it was done, it wasn't appreciated by mercedes. Rosberg is quick, he is young and german in a german team.
For mercedes image, it won't be good if rb try to favor Hamilton.
The context isn't the best one for mercedes. They lost to BMW in DTM last year (for their first participation) and it may have played a certain role in Haug resigning. DTM is very popular in germany who is the second biggest market after china.

http://www.dailymoti...to#.UWLVepOPN9W - the interview (original) in English. Listen to what he says at approx 1:15.

Also very interestingly, when discussing Lewis as a racer, he says that no.1 and no.2 drivers were never mentioned during the negotiations "by his side" perhaps implying it was from Merc's? Something to ponder at the very least.

Edited by Markn93, 08 April 2013 - 14:39.

[bauss]

http://www.dailymoti...to#.UWLVepOPN9W - the interview (original) in English. Listen to what he says at approx 1:15.

Also very interestingly, when discussing Lewis as a racer, he says that no.1 and no.2 drivers were never mentioned during the negotiations "by his side" perhaps implying it was from Merc's? Something to ponder at the very least.

yea I caught that too.... means they could have been considering installing LH as no 1 as part of the package offered to lure him from Mac... but LH never made it an issue...

which is consistent with what he's said...

but as some ex-drivers have said, I suspect they still think their best chances of WDC is LH (not unreasonable) which is one of the things that influenced the team orders.

[robefc]

Fixed it for you Rob.
Some people making some huge assumptions is no mystery to me.

I was (attempting) to imply that he was not easily within Rosberg's reach.

[robefc]

Interesting interview of Ross Brawn (french) "when Brawn try to justify himsel"
Brawn interview
Basically he says :

-there is no number one status in the team, it was not in Hamilton's contract.
-Someone had to take a decision.
-He didn't like to give this order and that wasn't in his sporting nature
-In the past, the team proved it isn't opposed to let drivers fight each other

More interesting :
- My decisions can't always be the good ones. If i make 70 to 80 % of good decisions than it means i do it right


It seems Ross Brawn realize he didn't do it right this time. He seems under pressure
With a top driver like Rosberg and the way it was done, it wasn't appreciated by mercedes. Rosberg is quick, he is young and german in a german team.
For mercedes image, it won't be good if rb try to favor Hamilton.
The context isn't the best one for mercedes. They lost to BMW in DTM last year (for their first participation) and it may have played a certain role in Haug resigning. DTM is very popular in germany who is the second biggest market after china.

My impression from the english interview amd everything I've read from Ross is that he in no way regrets the decision.

[undersquare]

yea I caught that too.... means they could have been considering installing LH as no 1 as part of the package offered to lure him from Mac... but LH never made it an issue...

which is consistent with what he's said...

but as some ex-drivers have said, I suspect they still think their best chances of WDC is LH (not unreasonable) which is one of the things that influenced the team orders.

Yeah, Brawn's background is basically Michael Schumacher. I'm sure he's into the Alpha Driver philosophy and that Lewis was brought in to be that driver.

I'd say TP's in general have this instinct - Horner/Sebi, Stefano/Nando, Ron/Lewis, and Eric/Kimi. It's not just race pace, it's the gladiator in them and the inspiration factor that Wolff was going on about.

Not that Nico isn't allowed to fight his way up there, I'd say, but I feel sure that Plan A is for Lewis to be their challenger.

[Szoelloe]

Yeah, Brawn's background is basically Michael Schumacher. I'm sure he's into the Alpha Driver philosophy and that Lewis was brought in to be that driver.

I'd say TP's in general have this instinct - Horner/Sebi, Stefano/Nando, Ron/Lewis, and Eric/Kimi. It's not just race pace, it's the gladiator in them and the inspiration factor that Wolff was going on about.

Not that Nico isn't allowed to fight his way up there, I'd say, but I feel sure that Plan A is for Lewis to be their challenger.

The 'alpha driver' terminology is so much more subtle and to the point, really, and while I don't think there s a No1 at Merc atm, that's actually as spot on as actually it can be. I don't necessarily agree with the background part. There is also JB. Rubens was given a fair chance to come out on top in 2009, and he couldn't deliver. Brawn was pretty pissed off when(and how) JB left. Saying all that, the TO in Malaysia had basically nothing to do with that philosophy you mentioned. Brawn usually makes sure to give the two drivers an equal platform until halfway through the season, IMHO.

[yoyogetfunky]

You being a self professed fan of Vettel and Red Bull and a worshipper of Newey, I wouldn't expect less from you. You would be failing your fraternity if you said any different.

Its completely off topic, and I fail to see how the simple mention of a few facts should not be regarded as such because of my alleged motives? For the record, I feel the same about Horner and his bullshit.


Back on topic:

What facts?

Well that Wolff doesnt have a clue what he is talking about, standing all Merc boss like with that Sky interview talking how clever it was not to let Rosberg attack Lewis, as evidenced by his team principals Brawns words: 'I had all the facts and all the information.' implying Wolff didnt. Brawn also stated HE makes those decisions, not Wolff.

http://en.espnf1.com...ory/104847.html

And hence, im under the impression Wolff is just a stooge for Brawn. He has no say whatsoever in the operational running of Merc GP. So the next time he stands all Merc boss like at a Sky interview, you know where his words are coming from, and who exactly wears the trousers inside Merc GP.


Meanwhile, Allan McNish is the latest big whig saying Lewis is definitly the number one in the pecking order at Mercedes, this time the explanation is 'just listen to the radio conversation'.

"Lewis Hamilton favoured by Mercedes says Allan McNish"

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/22062571

[Szoelloe]

Meanwhile, Allan McNish is the latest big whig saying Lewis is definitly the number one in the pecking order at Mercedes, this time the explanation is 'just listen to the radio conversation'.

"Lewis Hamilton favoured by Mercedes says Allan McNish"

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/22062571

who?

[SophieB]

Meanwhile, Allan McNish is the latest big whig saying Lewis is definitly the number one in the pecking order at Mercedes...

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/22062571

I was all set to say how calling Allan Mcnish an F1 bigwig is just a bit of a stretch when...

...this time the explanation is 'just listen to the radio conversation'.

Well I'm convinced.

[P123]

http://en.espnf1.com...ory/104847.html

And hence, im under the impression Wolff is just a stooge for Brawn. He has no say whatsoever in the operational running of Merc GP. So the next time he stands all Merc boss like at a Sky interview, you know where his words are coming from, and who exactly wears the trousers inside Merc GP.


Meanwhile, Allan McNish is the latest big whig saying Lewis is definitly the number one in the pecking order at Mercedes, this time the explanation is 'just listen to the radio conversation'.

"Lewis Hamilton favoured by Mercedes says Allan McNish"

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/22062571

Wolff is a 30% shareholder in the team. He may not have spoken the correct words to feed your anti-Hamilton bias, but none of that makes him a stooge, or wrong in what he says.

As for McNish, I'm not so sure LH is the fastest driver on the grid over one lap.

[yoyogetfunky]

I was all set to say how calling Allan Mcnish an F1 bigwig is just a bit of a stretch when...



Well I'm convinced.

Well he is a 2 time Le Mans winner and former F1 driver. But, like JYS and Watson, is just another parrot saying stuff like this to feed his kids at home. His explanation was the thinest of all.

Wolff is a 30% shareholder in the team. He may not have spoken the correct words to feed your anti-Hamilton bias, but none of that makes him a stooge, or wrong in what he says.

As for McNish, I'm not so sure LH is the fastest driver on the grid over one lap.

Nothing to do with my alleged bias (I dont believe Hamilton is the defacto #1 at Merc yet), but everything to do with presenting himself as the big Merc daddy while he isnt. Hes just there because of his money (and so is his GF at Williams). At least Haug had a sense of humour.

Edited by yoyogetfunky, 08 April 2013 - 18:13.

[Skinnyguy]

Gibberish in so many ways.

Then you´ll have no trouble explaining one of them.

Go ahead.

[jjcale]

Well, if its team orders.... so early in the season, suggests that Ross thinks a Merc driver can win the WDC...no??

[yoyogetfunky]

Well, if its team orders.... so early in the season, suggests that Ross thinks a Merc driver can win the WDC...no??

Sure, but why not come out and admit it? Tbh I dont think Hamilton is #1, but only got a lot of favouritism at this race for some reason. You cant blame people for having a little fun with the contradictory statements from the team on what exacty happened. What is for sure it is very unlike Brawn to have such a clumsy presentation, with obvious lies on why he decided to do so.

[Velocifer]

In the Thursday press conference before the race in China now, Rosberg is asked whether he is now confident there are no number one or number two drivers at Mercedes. The way he emphatically answers "Very confident" and "Extremely confident" and also adds something to the effect that it will become evident in the coming weeks or months, obviously shows that he has gotten assurances of some sort, likely from the highest authority. (maybe even a payback is on the cards?) This also means that it has been a topic at Mercedes which in turn means there was actual doubt.

Very good news. It means Rosberg will not be shafted anymore, and that any plan Brawn had of turning Mercedes into a number one and two driver team like he is used to from previous teams, has been thwarted.

[yoyogetfunky]

In the Thursday press conference before the race in China now, Rosberg is asked whether he is now confident there are no number one or number two drivers at Mercedes. The way he emphatically answers "Very confident" and "Extremely confident" and also adds something to the effect that it will become evident in the coming weeks or months, obviously shows that he has gotten assurances of some sort, likely from the highest authority. (maybe even a payback is on the cards?) This also means that it has been a topic at Mercedes which in turn means there was actual doubt.

Very good news. It means Rosberg will not be shafted anymore, and that any plan Brawn had of turning Mercedes into a number one and two driver team like he is used to from previous teams, has been thwarted.

Lets believe it when we see it. Im prepeared to keep an open mind about it. So far Rosberg seems to be at least half a second faster than Hamilton again, so this might be a good race to show the team serves the fastest driver the best, if they really mean it when they say they want the best for the team. If they manage to get the best out of both drivers during the season they might come very, very far.

[Velocifer]

Lol, why do you think Mercedes went shopping for Hamilton, when they had Rosberg already? They want to start winning. Nico may turn out to be unexpectedly quick but he's not top 3 to take on SV/FA or we'd have noticed in 7 years, and so would Mercedes.

I'd have liked Rosberg to be allowed to race on but he was allowed 2 passes and couldn't make it stick, so with the fuel situation Brawn had all the reason he needed to call it off. Or all the pretext, if you want to see it like that, but either way Mercedes will NOT be backing Rosberg, unless he can show he's the better wdc candidate.

Lol, Mercedes didn't go 'shopping' for anyone, Hamilton went shopping for a team and he just about got to replace a 40-something underperforming fallen star after being turned down by Red Bull and Ferrari, and not really that wanted by McLaren either or they would have met his demands. As for being noticed over the years, Hamilton by luck managed to scrape a single title over the great Massa in 6 years at a top team, and should definitely have won more. In addition he got noticed for being unstable mentally, feuding with team mates and throwing tantrums within the team.

Hamilton was just lucky to go to Mercedes as Bernie likely convinced Wolff or Mercedes it might be a good commercial boost at an important time and Schumacher didn't force an extension. I know he is god in your universe, but this place is obviously not about myths.

It might have been that Brawn thought Hamilton would be the better horse for the championship than Rosberg with his championship experience and likely new attitude in a new team, but Brawn is another underperforming fallen star clearly out of touch as Mercedes predictably doesn't want a number one and number two driver situation, especially when it would go against a German, I mean what was he thinking telling a driver to bend over in the second race of the season? All he managed to do was to pollute the atmosphere in the team and drive a few wedges in. Probably sealed his own fate too.

[Longtimefan]

If Nico outqualifies Lewis or gets ahead of him at the start, I'd bet Nico has a 'bad' pitstop.

[malibu]

mercedes-immediately-scraps-team-orders--lauda

http://www.f1today.n...m-orders--lauda



"The team's German-speaking faction led by Toto Wolff and Niki Lauda railed against Brawn's decision, leading to behind-the-scenes talks. Yeah, we've definitely discussed it and it's all sorted for the future, Rosberg told reporters on Thursday. He didn't say what has been decided, but team chairman and shareholder Lauda did. "We have sat down and agreed that, as of immediately, the drivers can drive their races against each other," the triple world champion said in an interview with Osterreich."

[Szoelloe]

mercedes-immediately-scraps-team-orders--lauda

http://www.f1today.n...m-orders--lauda



"The team's German-speaking faction led by Toto Wolff and Niki Lauda railed against Brawn's decision, leading to behind-the-scenes talks. Yeah, we've definitely discussed it and it's all sorted for the future, Rosberg told reporters on Thursday. He didn't say what has been decided, but team chairman and shareholder Lauda did. "We have sat down and agreed that, as of immediately, the drivers can drive their races against each other," the triple world champion said in an interview with Osterreich."

[swerved]

One of the things decided is to ensure they're not low on fuel, according to Brawn,

[F1ultimate]

They can say whatever they want in public but behind the scenes there will be developments. I can assure that if Lewis keeps himself in the top 4 and we reach midseason with a sizeable points gap between him and Rosberg I can assure you that team orders will kick in, but off course, not flaunted in public like in Malaysia.

[SmokeScreen]

mercedes-immediately-scraps-team-orders--lauda

http://www.f1today.n...m-orders--lauda



"The team's German-speaking faction led by Toto Wolff and Niki Lauda railed against Brawn's decision, leading to behind-the-scenes talks. Yeah, we've definitely discussed it and it's all sorted for the future, Rosberg told reporters on Thursday. He didn't say what has been decided, but team chairman and shareholder Lauda did. "We have sat down and agreed that, as of immediately, the drivers can drive their races against each other," the triple world champion said in an interview with Osterreich."

I see your ..
and raise you
http://www.autosport...t.php/id/106719

[study]

They can say whatever they want in public but behind the scenes there will be developments. I can assure that if Lewis keeps himself in the top 4 and we reach midseason with a sizeable points gap between him and Rosberg I can assure you that team orders will kick in, but off course, not flaunted in public like in Malaysia.

Erm it's already public by brawn and toto

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/106719