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Mercedes team orders


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#51 2ms

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:31

Too much with the team orders from Brawn. When you've got one of your drivers limping around with low fuel unable to compete with the other at all then it's severe manipulation to tell the other to finish behind. Much respect to Hamilton for his conduct on podium though.

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#52 Hairy

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:31

He doesnt and isnt responsible for fueling his own car ...


At the end of the day, most teams get to a certain part of the race and then call the race off, to ensure they maximise their points. I believe Button and Hamilton had this before at Mclaren. Hamilton was told to conserve fuel in the last few laps, and Nico only caught up because of that. Hamilton had Nico covered all through the first 2 stints, then had to turn the wick down. At the end of the day, these things work both ways, and this is racing, and always has been.

#53 pit5bul

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:31

Hamilton was the faster man for most of the race .. He was then told to drive to conserve. Would be unfair to take his spot due to that. Ross also pointed out that the cars were in the middle of nowhere.. There was no chance for Rosberg to catch the cars in front and the cars behind were 15 seconds....

Hold station and bring the cars home was the right call .. Whether Rosberg likes it or not. Im sure the favor will be repaid at some point... Rosberg is no slowpoke.. his payback will come.

I also liked Hamilton's humility and acknowledgement of Rosberg's pace on the podium.


Bullshit.. it was a bad call.. they should have let Nico pass.. its not brain surgery this can cause problems later in the year.. Nico is a nice guy but he wont take this lightly.. they are friends but after this im not sure they will still be friends.. classy call from Lewis on the podium.. and classy response from Nico on Skyf1 afterwards but deep down inside.. Nico is cut big time !!

#54 Hairy

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:31

He doesnt and isnt responsible for fueling his own car ...


At the end of the day, most teams get to a certain part of the race and then call the race off, to ensure they maximise their points. I believe Button and Hamilton had this before at Mclaren. Hamilton was told to conserve fuel in the last few laps, and Nico only caught up because of that. Hamilton had Nico covered all through the first 2 stints, then had to turn the wick down. At the end of the day, these things work both ways, and this is racing, and always has been.

#55 Diablobb81

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:32

He doesnt and isnt responsible for fueling his own car ...


The first info is that Lewis used too much fuel in first part (not first time it happens at Merc). And it isn't Nico's problem. He was so much faster he could have cruised past Lewis.

#56 Gene and Tonic

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:32

Sorry guys but Ross Brawn hasn't won as many titles as he has by making bad and stupid calls - important to remember that

#57 MaxisOne

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:33

At the end of the day, most teams get to a certain part of the race and then call the race off, to ensure they maximise their points. I believe Button and Hamilton had this before at Mclaren. Hamilton was told to conserve fuel in the last few laps, and Nico only caught up because of that. Hamilton had Nico covered all through the first 2 stints, then had to turn the wick down. At the end of the day, these things work both ways, and this is racing, and always has been.


+1 :up:

#58 F1AC

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:33

Well Nico was probably easier on tyres, but not sure how much fuel Lewis had to save.
They were allowed to race for a while, but Nico should have passed in the 2nd DRS zone rather than the first.

Nico was probably the fastest out of the two at the end but we don't know how slow Lewis had to go to save fuel.

But for any Red Bull or particularly Ferrari fan to moan is rich coming from them. (Red Bull not so much today :p)

Lewis wasn't happy either so the hate should be directed at Brawn, not Lewis.

Edited by F1AC, 24 March 2013 - 10:34.


#59 Absulute

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:33

It's a smart TEAM decision but obviously neither driver will be happy.

Massive kudos to Nico for being a team player. Showed huge maturity.

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#60 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:34

At the end of the day, most teams get to a certain part of the race and then call the race off, to ensure they maximise their points. I believe Button and Hamilton had this before at Mclaren. Hamilton was told to conserve fuel in the last few laps, and Nico only caught up because of that. Hamilton had Nico covered all through the first 2 stints, then had to turn the wick down. At the end of the day, these things work both ways, and this is racing, and always has been.

this goes both ways. maybe nico did conserve earlier and more thus making hamilton look faster? or hamilton ran with a lighter car and had to pay the price in the last laps?
why should nico obey this? and this was not about them racing the wheels out of their cars and having a hold station moment. They were SLOW as hell

#61 MaxisOne

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:35

The first info is that Lewis used too much fuel in first part (not first time it happens at Merc). And it isn't Nico's problem. He was so much faster he could have cruised past Lewis.


Its not Nicos problem .. Its the teams problem... The same team that pays he wages... Its the correct call ,no point in risking it...Every pundit is saying its the correct call.

Im satisfied with the result .. so ill enjoy the fact that we even got a freaking podium and leave you people to figure out the bigger picture and whats at risk.

#62 surbjits

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:35

this goes both ways. maybe nico did conserve earlier and more thus making hamilton look faster? or hamilton ran with a lighter car and had to pay the price in the last laps?
why should nico obey this? and this was not about them racing the wheels out of their cars and having a hold station moment. They were SLOW as hell


:up:


#63 F.M.

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:37

At the end of the day, most teams get to a certain part of the race and then call the race off, to ensure they maximise their points. I believe Button and Hamilton had this before at Mclaren. Hamilton was told to conserve fuel in the last few laps, and Nico only caught up because of that. Hamilton had Nico covered all through the first 2 stints, then had to turn the wick down. At the end of the day, these things work both ways, and this is racing, and always has been.

Like in Turkey 2011? :p

Edited by F.M., 24 March 2013 - 10:37.


#64 garoidb

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:42

The real question is whether they would have issued the same order if Nico had been the one ahead. How would Lewis have reacted to that?

#65 DaddyCool

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:44

I'm baffled by this to be honest. Theere was a comfortable gap both in front and at the back, so Nico cruising past with DRS surely wouldn't have been a problem. Team gets the same points either way.

Edited by DaddyCool, 24 March 2013 - 10:45.


#66 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:45

The real question is whether they would have issued the same order if Nico had been the one ahead. How would Lewis have reacted to that?

i think it's a position neither driver wants to be in

and yes, I am 100% sure they would have issued the order

#67 Group B

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:45

Crap ending all round, both Merc and RB. I really think it's time to just let race, risk or no risk.

#68 robefc

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:49

The first info is that Lewis used too much fuel in first part (not first time it happens at Merc). And it isn't Nico's problem. He was so much faster he could have cruised past Lewis.


There's no such thing as using too much fuel, only the team miscalculating how quick they would be and therefore how much fuel would be used. Team's mistake not driver's.

#69 SunnyENTP

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:51

I'm baffled by this to be honest. Theere was a comfortable gap both in front and at the back, so Nico cruising past with DRS surely wouldn't have been a problem. Team gets the same points either way.



Nico did overtake Lewis but Lewis overtook him back. The team had 2 choice tell Lewis to stop fighting Nico because he had low fuel or Nico to stop fighting Lewis because Lewis had low fuel. They decided Nico should not fight.

#70 MikeV1987

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:53

This is the first time both Mercedes have ever finished in the top 5, I do not blame Brawn one bit for telling them to hold position. Completely logical in the interests of the team.



#71 f1rules

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:53

problem today was, that the speed difference was huge, hamilton needed to save fuel a lot, it was obvious nico could easily have overtaken at no risk, this was only strengthened by hamiltons showing on the podest, he knew he didn't belong, had they had equal cars like seb and web it would have been different, thats what makes this call from brawn really bad

#72 Xeriks

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:53

The only time team orders should be used, is when 1 driver is out of the title running, and that's it.

Second race of the season and already they're being used, I felt sick watching that.

#73 Disgrace

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:53

Crap ending all round, both Merc and RB. I really think it's time to just let race, risk or no risk.


Which utopia without risk do you live in?

#74 rt99

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:57

The only time team orders should be used, is when 1 driver is out of the title running, and that's it.

Second race of the season and already they're being used, I felt sick watching that.


Sadly the "save engine and tyres" culture has just made F1 a farce. Your preferred scenario will only happen with unlimited engines and proper tyres. I can see how the thought of no proper racing is sickening.

#75 F1Lurker

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:06

It hard to judge the merits of the team decision without more information.

IF the team made a fueling/strategy mistake its fair to hold position after final pitstops. If Hamilton made a fuel mixture error/etc then Rosberg should have been allowed to pass.

If not to the teams ultimate detriment (example another car moving up to overtake both drivers) one team member should not be advantaged over another because a team mistake.

Just my opinion.

#76 Bartonz20let

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:11

Its not Nicos problem .. Its the teams problem... The same team that pays he wages... Its the correct call ,no point in risking it...Every pundit is saying its the correct call.

Im satisfied with the result .. so ill enjoy the fact that we even got a freaking podium and leave you people to figure out the bigger picture and whats at risk.


:up: this.



#77 ZooL

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:14

Sorry guys but Ross Brawn hasn't won as many titles as he has by making bad and stupid calls - important to remember that

Bingo. Brawn is thinking the long game to the end of the season where Hamilton might in the WDC fight. He doesn't have the faith in Rosberg because he has seen something...

Mercedes have to race like this to compete with Ferrari (who back Alonso fully) and RBR (who back Vettel fully).

Mercedes need to compete eye-for-an-eye, not with one hand tied behind their back.

Brawn did this with Scumacher, its how you win the long game (WDC).

#78 Muz Bee

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:21

So Lewis should pay for Mercedes issue. He was ahead on merit all through the race, they owed it to him. Nico had to take one for team. All drivers hold station at the last stint. Nico was a cry baby, not like he was ever going to overtake the Rb'S

Utter BS. Why don't you keep your biased opinions away from masquerading as the facts.

Lewis is usually the first to get on the radio and ask for a pass over a teammate holding him up. Nico's post race behaviour was classy, sporting, as was Lewis's. Nico was well justified to ask for the "move over" and only he knows if he had a chance to challenge the RedBull drivers. Every evidence is we were deprived of a great finish.

#79 Muz Bee

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:27

The only time team orders should be used, is when 1 driver is out of the title running, and that's it.

Second race of the season and already they're being used, I felt sick watching that.


Yes but team orders and tactics will always be around in come form. It's the tasteless ones that really smack us as fans. Today with Mercedes it was at the very low end of the scale AND the alternative (giving Nico Rosberg the pass) would also have been team orders. Many here consider the latter would have been the best option all things considered, I can see both sides but tend to agree.

If todays team orders make you sick then to be honest F1 of any era is probably not for you. Nor is cycling, or many other sports.

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#80 learningtobelost

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:32

Not a Nico fan but this was disgusting, letting him go wouldn't have hurt the team, they'd have got the same amount of points. It's kicking Nico and demotivating him.

Ross Brawn.. Idiot


You obviously didn't bother to watch the race... for about 5 laps in a row Nico overtook Lewis and he re-took the place. The chance of a double DNF grew with every lap. Brawn was correct to call the fight off one way or another. Now as to who you think should have been ahead well that's a matter of pragmatism. Nico showed slightly better race pace all of the way through however when it mattered, Lewis was in in fuel saving due to using more in the earlier stage pushing the Red Bulls... we saw this a few times in 2010 with both Mclaren drivers, Turkey was a good example and bore a striking resemblance to todays events. Putting pressure on the leaders, causing them to be reactionary on their strategy rather than dictating the race as they chose allowed Merc to get two cars into podium positions at one point. So, you could argue that when it mattered later on Nico was able to use more of the car, however, Lewis used more of the car getting the both of them into that position.

TL:DR - You can't view the last 15 laps in isolation.

#81 Hairy

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:50

this goes both ways. maybe nico did conserve earlier and more thus making hamilton look faster? or hamilton ran with a lighter car and had to pay the price in the last laps?
why should nico obey this? and this was not about them racing the wheels out of their cars and having a hold station moment. They were SLOW as hell


Why should he obey this? It's a team sport, Nico drives for Mercedes, and they pay his salary.

The rest is all supposition on your part, but the team have explained it, and it makes sense. I am just happy Merc have a good car, and 2 fast drivers.

#82 micktosin

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:51

Bingo. Brawn is thinking the long game to the end of the season where Hamilton might in the WDC fight. He doesn't have the faith in Rosberg because he has seen something...

Mercedes have to race like this to compete with Ferrari (who back Alonso fully) and RBR (who back Vettel fully).

Mercedes need to compete eye-for-an-eye, not with one hand tied behind their back.

Brawn did this with Scumacher, its how you win the long game (WDC).

With all due respect, but what a ridiculous statement. What do you think he might have saw? Nico not capable of winning a race or handling pressure?

Just watching rosberg's interview on sky, you could not but like this guy. I am throwing equal support to both drivers.

#83 Hairy

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:52

Like in Turkey 2011? :p


Yes, precisely. Dirty trick by Button then, who tried the pass after being told not to.

#84 Mr2s

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:57

Posted Image

#85 milestone 11

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 12:07

Must confess that I was hugely impressed with Nico giving an interview in Spanish this morning. First class.

#86 Coral

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 12:08

Obviously I was delighted with Lewis getting a podium today. I would have liked it if he had been challenging for the win though...it was not nice seeing him having to coast in the latter stages. It was a shame for Nico but I can see why they wanted to keep him behind Lewis...if Lewis had lost third because his car was underfuelled, then that would have been very unfair. And these three points could prove crucial to Lewis's fight for the WDC...yes, I do actually think he is in the hunt. :)

If Nico wants to beat Lewis, then maybe he should try qualifying in front of him for a change... :D

#87 jj2728

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 12:12

I think the question should be, had Rosberg been allowed to pass Hamilton could he have put the Mercedes in a position to challenge the Red Bull duo. If he'd have been able to that's one matter, if not, well then team orders are team orders and Brawn was correct, hold station and don't muck it up. Having said that, why is it that Hamilton felt it necessary to comment that Nico should have been on the podium? Let it go. If you really feel that bad about it; a) make it private or b) dont steal a win or pass and repass your teammate in the first place!

#88 F1ultimate

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 12:24

Rosberg had quite a few chances to overtake Lewis but failed to learn from his mistake of using DRS on the back straight to then get passed by Lewis on the front straight. This happened 2-3 times.

No wonder Brawn had enough and told them both to hold station.

#89 Mr M0by

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 12:24

if Lewis had lost third because his car was underfuelled, then that would have been very unfair. And these three points could prove crucial to Lewis's fight for the WDC...yes, I do actually think he is in the hunt. :)

If Nico wants to beat Lewis, then maybe he should try qualifying in front of him for a change... :D


And if he had been given the same amount of fuel as Nico?

#90 Coral

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 12:39

Rosberg had quite a few chances to overtake Lewis but failed to learn from his mistake of using DRS on the back straight to then get passed by Lewis on the front straight. This happened 2-3 times.

No wonder Brawn had enough and told them both to hold station.


Agreed, Nico had a few chances to pass and I believe he did actually get past at one point, but Lewis immediately took the place back. They did look at one point as if they were going to take each other out, so I was not surprised to see the team orders. With a season as close as this one looks as if it is going to be, these points could prove decisive. It was the right decision IMO.

And if he had been given the same amount of fuel as Nico?


Then I would have expected Lewis to be further ahead of Nico as he wouldn't have had to coast. But Lewis was not given enough fuel, so we'll never know.

#91 CHIUNDA

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 12:44

The objective for Ross Brawn is to win both the WDC and the WCC. That is his job.

Today he had to choose between a team order that works to that objective or one that makes one driver happy because of 3 points. In my book he made the right choice.

Frankly it is better fans are bickering over team orders rather than whether the car is competitive. This is a big step forward for Mercedes.

#92 ivand911

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 13:12

Hamilton was the faster man for most of the race .. He was then told to drive to conserve. Would be unfair to take his spot due to that. Ross also pointed out that the cars were in the middle of nowhere.. There was no chance for Rosberg to catch the cars in front and the cars behind were 15 seconds....

Hold station and bring the cars home was the right call .. Whether Rosberg likes it or not. Im sure the favor will be repaid at some point... Rosberg is no slowpoke.. his payback will come.

I also liked Hamilton's humility and acknowledgement of Rosberg's pace on the podium.

Facts says opposite:
http://en.mclarenf-1...on#.UU7kwDe9gjs
Nico was faster in 36 from 56 laps. At every part of the race.


#93 CarbonF

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 13:43

As much as the car, Brawn did a fantastic job in keeping things under control. He handled the situation way better than Horner in my opinion.

#94 SCEPurple

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 13:50

As much as the car, Brawn did a fantastic job in keeping things under control. He handled the situation way better than Horner in my opinion.


Honest and straightforward is always better for long term relationships.

#95 mrtickle666

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 13:50

Facts says opposite:
http://en.mclarenf-1...on#.UU7kwDe9gjs
Nico was faster in 36 from 56 laps. At every part of the race.

But not faster when he needed to be. If he'd have got in front of Lewis in the pit stops he would not have had this issue.

I don't for one second think he could have challenged the bulls either. They both had fuel issues if you listen to Brawn. As
Long as the situation is repeated when he's ahead I don't see this as an issue.

#96 olliek88

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 13:51

As much as the car, Brawn did a fantastic job in keeping things under control. He handled the situation way better than Horner in my opinion.


Hard to disagree, cool, calm but authoritative.

#97 jerriy

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 13:56

if hamilton was so embarrassed about it he should have told the team on the radio he is letting nico through.

That would be going against Brawn's team orders.

#98 Sin

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 13:57

http://www.youtube.c...eature=youtu.be

Nico mainly disappointed :o.... english probably follows on his chan

Edited by Sin, 24 March 2013 - 14:06.


#99 CarbonF

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 14:10

Not a Nico fan but this was disgusting, letting him go wouldn't have hurt the team, they'd have got the same amount of points. It's kicking Nico and demotivating him.

Ross Brawn.. Idiot

Points wise you may be right, but the priority was to get the cars safely home, as Brawn mentioned that on the radio there was nothing to be gained in front. Its easy to say things from here, Lauda can blabber all he want, but if they have collided, i bet everyone would have been on Ross's thorat.
Hamilton was defending hard and he entitled to do so, it was only when Nico asked the team to let him pass through the orders kicked in. Up until that point they were racing each other. So its fair play on everyone; Lewis was right to defent, Brawn was right to call his shot.

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#100 Kvothe

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 14:14

I fail to see how this is any different to Turkey 2010 when both drivers were being to save fuel although it was implicitly obvious that Lewis had less fuel, only the fact that Button went for it anyway, while Rosberg chose not to makes the situations different. Considering McLaren like to pride themselves on equality I fail to see what was wrong with what Merc did today (in a moral sense not a racing one) or how it is any indication of No 1 status.