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#101 Seanspeed

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 14:19

Lewis was not underfueled. People need to stop saying that. He used too much fuel himself as he admits. He also says that Rosberg was faster than him and deserved to be on the podium:

"If I'm honest I feel Nico should be standing here," said Hamilton on the podium. "He had better pace through the race.

"We were racing very hard to keep up with Red Bull. We were close but on the knife-edge and I used too much fuel."


Ross Brawn flat-out lied to Rosberg saying that Lewis could have gone much faster, too.

I dont care too much that they did it as I can see the merit in not wanting your guys fighting too much when there's good points at stake, but some of you guys are seriously so biased out your asses with this.

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#102 choyothe

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 14:19

Let's be honest here: in the last 5 or so laps there was no risk to be had with Nico overtaking Lewis, he was easily able to coast .5 behind him all around the track. Nico could've passed him without any hassle if he was allowed to.

#103 choyothe

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 14:21

Lewis was not underfueled. People need to stop saying that. He used too much fuel himself as he admits. He also says that Rosberg was faster than him and deserved to be on the podium:

"If I'm honest I feel Nico should be standing here," said Hamilton on the podium. "He had better pace through the race.

"We were racing very hard to keep up with Red Bull. We were close but on the knife-edge and I used too much fuel."


Ross Brawn flat-out lied to Rosberg saying that Lewis could have gone much faster, too.

I dont care too much that they did it as I can see the merit in not wanting your guys fighting too much when there's good points at stake, but some of you guys are seriously so biased out your asses with this.


Yeah this was pretty sad, did he honestly believe Nico would believe that? Or did they even tell Nico Lewis had to save fuel?

#104 sharo

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 14:24

If not very supportive, I've never objected team orders. It's team's business. But today I felt pity for Nico, it's rude awakening to reality. All indications are he had preserved more resources in his car for the final stage and was deprived of a chance to finish a place higher. From team POV it does not matter but not from driver's one. And in the previous 3 years it has always been said with regard to Nico that the first rival to beat is your teammate.

#105 rallye3

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 14:25

I'd love to know what Rosberg senior thinks of all this. I think he might have just said f**k it and made the pass. There really is no place for team orders this early in the season. It was so transparently just a PR stunt that hasn't really worked.

#106 igoru

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 14:25

Bad call.. im outraged... they should have let Nico pass.. im a Lewis supporter but this is not the way to do it.. let them fight.. Nico won this round in my eyes.. and getting this call against him will only make him hate the team and Lewis.. not the right way.. WE ARE NOT FERRARI !!! Lewis looked not pleased by the situation !!


You are much worse than ferrari

#107 CarbonF

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 14:31

Lewis was not underfueled. People need to stop saying that. He used too much fuel himself as he admits. He also says that Rosberg was faster than him and deserved to be on the podium:

"If I'm honest I feel Nico should be standing here," said Hamilton on the podium. "He had better pace through the race.

"We were racing very hard to keep up with Red Bull. We were close but on the knife-edge and I used too much fuel."


Ross Brawn flat-out lied to Rosberg saying that Lewis could have gone much faster, too.

I dont care too much that they did it as I can see the merit in not wanting your guys fighting too much when there's good points at stake, but some of you guys are seriously so biased out your asses with this.

I beg to disagree, all he said was "Lewis is driving to a delta which the team had asked of him" which is true "he could go faster as well" also true, albeit a speculation, had he had the same amount of fuel as Nico.
The discussion started only after Nico asked to let him through, if he was indeed really that fast i dont see a reason for this request.

#108 Seanspeed

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 14:33

I beg to disagree, all he said was "Lewis is driving to a delta which the team had asked of him" which is true "he could go faster as well" also true, albeit a speculation, had he had the same amount of fuel as Nico.
The discussion started only after Nico asked to let him through, if he was indeed really that fast i dont see a reason for this request.

Beg all you like. It was a lie meant to hold Nico station. Lewis could NOT have gone much quicker as we found out when they told him he was marginal on fuel. That meant he could not push harder than what he was doing already.

#109 CarbonF

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 14:37

Beg all you like. It was a lie meant to hold Nico station. Lewis could NOT have gone much quicker as we found out when they told him he was marginal on fuel. That meant he could not push harder than what he was doing already.

If Nico was that fast why did he request teams assistance in the first place?

#110 scheivlak

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 14:40

If Nico was that fast why did he request teams assistance in the first place?

He didn't.

#111 seahawk

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 14:40

The team has one WDC, it is obvious that they put all their eggs into this basket. Lewis is able to win them the title, Nico is not. For me it was the right call.

#112 SunnyENTP

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 14:40

Let's be honest here: in the last 5 or so laps there was no risk to be had with Nico overtaking Lewis, he was easily able to coast .5 behind him all around the track. Nico could've passed him without any hassle if he was allowed to.



Errrm he did pass Lewis on the straights but being the weak defender he is Lewis got him back. If Lewis had passed Nico he would have covered him and driven off. Its Nico's fault for not taking the opportunity when he had it. The same thing happened in Turkey with Button. He got passed back by Lewis.

#113 Seanspeed

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 14:41

If Nico was that fast why did he request teams assistance in the first place?

Because Lewis races hard and Nico didn't want to run the risk of having a collision with a teammate when running 3rd and 4th.



#114 sheepgobba

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 14:42

If Nico was that fast why did he request teams assistance in the first place?



What I inferred from Nico's radio message was to overtake Lewis.

His message wasn't anything like Seb to get Lewis "out of the way"

#115 CarbonF

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 14:42

He didn't.

uhhh, ...yes he did! He requested to be let through as he could not pass to which Brawn plainly replied "negative"

#116 Skinnyguy

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 14:43

Lewis is able to win them the title, Nico is not. For me it was the right call.


Yes, we already know that after two very matched weekends of racing :rolleyes:

#117 Skinnyguy

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 14:43

uhhh, ...yes he did! He requested to be let through as he could not pass to which Brawn plainly replied "negative"


He requested PERMISSION to try and pass Lewis, he did not request Lewis yielding.

#118 CarbonF

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 14:44

What I inferred from Nico's radio message was to overtake Lewis.

His message wasn't anything like Seb to get Lewis "out of the way"

If he was faster what was the necessity for the call?

#119 Skinnyguy

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 14:45

If he was faster what was the necessity for the call?


He needed the call because he had been told not to pass.

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#120 sheepgobba

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 14:47

He needed the call because he had been told not to pass.


This :up:

#121 CarbonF

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 14:47

He requested PERMISSION to try and pass Lewis, he did not request Lewis yielding.

Nope his words were in the lines of "i'm faster let me through" because lewis was coming back at him with the DRS in his previous attempts and sine he could not make a pass stick he made the call.

#122 CarbonF

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 14:50

He needed the call because he had been told not to pass.

No..because he could not make his previous pass stick. period.

#123 Seanspeed

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 14:50

Honest and straightforward is always better for long term relationships.

He lied to Rosberg about Lewis being able to go much quicker, but ok.

#124 Skinnyguy

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 14:51

Nope his words were in the lines of "i'm faster let me through" because lewis was coming back at him with the DRS in his previous attempts and sine he could not make a pass stick he made the call.


Not at all. After the following events it´s very clear that it wasn´t the case. Nico could have made the pass without even trying, he just had to be within DRS distance and brake in the normal distance before T1. Nico was asking the team bo be allowed to make the pass, he wasn´t asking for Lewis to get out of there, because he could do the job by himself if he was allowed to at any point since Lewis turned the pace down after their first squables.

Nico was cheated being told Lewis was coasting but could be as fast as him. He was going as instructed my ass.

#125 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 14:52

are you for real? :))

edit: for CarbonF it was

Edited by MikeTekRacing, 24 March 2013 - 14:52.


#126 femi

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 14:53

He lied to Rosberg about Lewis being able to go much quicker, but ok.


How have you come to the conclusion RB lied? To some of us, it was obvious LH could have gone faster.

#127 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 14:54

How have you come to the conclusion RB lied? To some of us, it was obvious LH could have gone faster.


no he could not, cars don't run on air

#128 Skinnyguy

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 14:56

No..because he could not make his previous pass stick. period.


Which he would have easily done at any point after that if he wasn´t ordered not to. Add period, or smilies, or whatever it makes a message look more convincing to you.

#129 Seanspeed

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 14:57

How have you come to the conclusion RB lied? To some of us, it was obvious LH could have gone faster.

If he wanted to run out of fuel, sure.

#130 Kerch

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 14:58

no he could not, cars don't run on air


But if it wasn't for tyre saving, Lewis could have gone faster overall whilst using the same amount of fuel by putting more emphasis on cornering pace.

#131 femi

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 14:58

no he could not, cars don't run on air


True, but that is a different point, he could have gone faster if he wanted to but would not have finished the race which was the point RB was making.

Edited by femi, 24 March 2013 - 15:13.


#132 CarbonF

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 15:03

i'm a fan of Nico too, it was just an unfortunate situation for Brawn, but i do believe that he made the right decision and i definitely dont believe he lied!

#133 RichardF1fan

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 15:04

To be honest I think it was just inevitable.

1) the team told Hamilton to push and ignore tyre wear - if he used too much fuel then that is the teams miscalculation.
2) Ross said that he would explain to Nico that if they had continued to race then Nico would have been dangerously low on fuel too.
3) It looks like Rosberg had more fuel than Hamilton and so if they raced Lewis would have possibly not had enough for a sample or run out and then Rosberg would also have been at risk, forced into fuel saving too.

So team orders were necessary to get both cars back.

So do they penalize Hamilton for doing what they told him to do? Do they penalize Rosberg when he's driven a great race.?

At the end of the day the decision comes down to who is in front like most of those decision, there are plenty of examples of this - some going back to whoever gets round the first corner first doesn't get challenged by his team mate.

Personally I think it was a miscalculation on the teams part, they assumed a safety car or more wet running would get them through and they ended up in an undesirable position of having to make a decision - neither of the drivers did anything wrong so they just called it on who had track position.

I think both drivers showed great maturity over it and I don't blame Ross for making the decision he did. Personally I would have told Hamilton 'You haven't got enough fuel to fight him' - but then again I'm using hindsight

#134 SonJR

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 15:06

Which he would have easily done at any point after that if he wasn´t ordered not to. Add period, or smilies, or whatever it makes a message look more convincing to you.


True, I think even right after we heard this on the radio you could actually hear him back off for T1.

I think the whole issue is that they just didn't want the two of them to actually fight (even with DRS, although that could've provided a risk free pass) and at the same time didn't want to tell Hamilton to yield and give up the position either, because that's quite an 'ask' of a driver. It's a lot easier to use an order to maintain the status quo and have your drivers hold station (except if you're Red Bull) than it is to ask the leading driver to move over. Especially if he's the new guy in your team, who you want to lead the team, and is on his way to his first podium for the team.

Edited by SonJR, 24 March 2013 - 15:07.


#135 Szoelloe

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 15:31

He lied to Rosberg about Lewis being able to go much quicker, but ok.


He did not, Sean, with all due respect, that's your rather shortsighted take on the matter. Brawn did not say LH was faster than NR if he wanted to. He only said he could go faster, and he is cruising at a speed the team instructed him to cruise at. NR was complaining several times that LH was too slow, and he felt that he could be in a position to attack if something went wrong with the RB's. Brawn told him in no uncertain way that he is to stay put. He also said after the race that this kind of call goes both ways, which means if the situation was reversed, the team would have made the same call. I would say at this point in the season, I believe him. LH was running 3rd place for the vast majority of the race. Even if it was his fault that he had to save fuel - which is not a certain knowledge we are privy to, in fact, we don't know why that was the case - NR was in a position to overtake LH only in the 2nd half of the last stint, by when, possibly the order between them was a given, from a team perspective. It was certainly NOT LH's fault that NR had qualified in the position he did. It is certainly a sour pill to swallow for NR, and can be argued as unfair, but in the end, it was the call the team made at that point in the race. It can also be argued to being the sensible thing to do, again from a team perspective, but those can be debated to no end for the next few months. But saying that Brawn deliberately lied to NR to manipulate him into accepting his decision is, I think, not true, and I hardly think NR would have acknowledged it as the truth either. NR is certainly showing his worth though. Plus, I think the whole situation was handled well, both by the drivers and the team.


#136 Longtimefan

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 15:36

Nico must be seething. 3 years driving that dog of a car and now he's a #2 driver.
You cannot tell me it won't happen again.

Stupid decision by Brawn, they'd get the same amount of points regardless of who's in front.
Nico punished for managing his fuel better? :|


#137 jrg19

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 15:37

Nico must be seething. 3 years driving that dog of a car and now he's a #2 driver.
You cannot tell me it won't happen again.

Stupid decision by Brawn, they'd get the same amount of points regardless of who's in front.
Nico punished for managing his fuel better? :|


Yeah because Lewis fills his car up.

#138 CarbonF

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 15:41

He did not, Sean, with all due respect, that's your rather shortsighted take on the matter. Brawn did not say LH was faster than NR if he wanted to. He only said he could go faster, and he is cruising at a speed the team instructed him to cruise at. NR was complaining several times that LH was too slow, and he felt that he could be in a position to attack if something went wrong with the RB's. Brawn told him in no uncertain way that he is to stay put. He also said after the race that this kind of call goes both ways, which means if the situation was reversed, the team would have made the same call. I would say at this point in the season, I believe him. LH was running 3rd place for the vast majority of the race. Even if it was his fault that he had to save fuel - which is not a certain knowledge we are privy to, in fact, we don't know why that was the case - NR was in a position to overtake LH only in the 2nd half of the last stint, by when, possibly the order between them was a given, from a team perspective. It was certainly NOT LH's fault that NR had qualified in the position he did. It is certainly a sour pill to swallow for NR, and can be argued as unfair, but in the end, it was the call the team made at that point in the race. It can also be argued to being the sensible thing to do, again from a team perspective, but those can be debated to no end for the next few months. But saying that Brawn deliberately lied to NR to manipulate him into accepting his decision is, I think, not true, and I hardly think NR would have acknowledged it as the truth either. NR is certainly showing his worth though. Plus, I think the whole situation was handled well, both by the drivers and the team.

:up: Exactly what I've been saying.

#139 Seanspeed

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 15:44

He did not, Sean, with all due respect, that's your rather shortsighted take on the matter. Brawn did not say LH was faster than NR if he wanted to. He only said he could go faster, and he is cruising at a speed the team instructed him to cruise at. NR was complaining several times that LH was too slow, and he felt that he could be in a position to attack if something went wrong with the RB's. Brawn told him in no uncertain way that he is to stay put. He also said after the race that this kind of call goes both ways, which means if the situation was reversed, the team would have made the same call. I would say at this point in the season, I believe him. LH was running 3rd place for the vast majority of the race. Even if it was his fault that he had to save fuel - which is not a certain knowledge we are privy to, in fact, we don't know why that was the case - NR was in a position to overtake LH only in the 2nd half of the last stint, by when, possibly the order between them was a given, from a team perspective. It was certainly NOT LH's fault that NR had qualified in the position he did. It is certainly a sour pill to swallow for NR, and can be argued as unfair, but in the end, it was the call the team made at that point in the race. It can also be argued to being the sensible thing to do, again from a team perspective, but those can be debated to no end for the next few months. But saying that Brawn deliberately lied to NR to manipulate him into accepting his decision is, I think, not true, and I hardly think NR would have acknowledged it as the truth either. NR is certainly showing his worth though. Plus, I think the whole situation was handled well, both by the drivers and the team.

Rosberg said he was much quicker than Lewis. Brawn responded that Lewis could go much quicker, too. But that WAS a lie. Lewis could not go much quicker as he marginal on fuel. I dont know how there's any denying that or how it was 'short-sighted'. And by the way, that post was a response to somebody in the Mercedes thread who applauded Brawn's 'honesty' in the situation.

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#140 choyothe

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 15:47

Errrm he did pass Lewis on the straights but being the weak defender he is Lewis got him back. If Lewis had passed Nico he would have covered him and driven off. Its Nico's fault for not taking the opportunity when he had it. The same thing happened in Turkey with Button. He got passed back by Lewis.


Well I didn't see that since we were watching the Bulls at that point. I was talking about the last 5 laps where Nico was just coasting behind him, if Lewis had no more pace then (which I doubt he had) then Nico could've easily made the move without risk.

#141 Szoelloe

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 15:53

Rosberg said he was much quicker than Lewis. Brawn responded that Lewis could go much quicker, too. But that WAS a lie. Lewis could not go much quicker as he marginal on fuel. I dont know how there's any denying that or how it was 'short-sighted'. And by the way, that post was a response to somebody in the Mercedes thread who applauded Brawn's 'honesty' in the situation.


I know that, but that poster's remark was about Brawn being openly giving a team order, knowing that it is a public radio traffic. From that perspective, your argument has nothing to do with that particular post.




#142 braderzf50

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 16:36

Mercedes team orders resolved:

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/106355

Hamilton said he was proud of the team's handling of the issue, and that the best response would be to work harder to outpace his team-mate.

"We just had a team talk and everyone has been fantastic," Hamilton said.

"The guys did a good job and Nico did an exceptional job. He showed maturity and was in a unique and difficult position.

"But I'm going to work hard - harder - to make sure we're not in that position again.

"It's very difficult. We all work and train hard to win, and to beat the people around us.

"It was an equally difficult situation for me to stay ahead and not let him past, and it was difficult for him to stay behind. For me, I wanted to let him past, but we have standing orders.

"Like I said before, if we didn't have the fuel issue the scenario would have been different today. But hats off to Nico. He was driver of the day for me."


Rosberg reiterated that he saw Mercedes' logic.

"Of course it is tough. I understand their point of view, but I also understood it in the moment," he said.

"Of course I wanted to go for it, and go for the Red Bulls and see what we could do. I don't know how far I would have got and I had to save a bit of fuel again, but nothing unusual."





Interesting...fair play to both drivers :)

Edited by braderzf50, 24 March 2013 - 16:37.


#143 surbjits

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 16:54

I have the utmost respect for Lewis, but zero for Brawn after that charade.

He lied to Nico point blank.

#144 femi

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 16:54

All that is fine, but I think LH needs to learn to be a bit more ruthless. I think Merc wants to build the team around him and it is going to happen regardless of what people say. He (LH) is not used to it yet but that will happen. That was Ross winning formula with MS and I am a bit surprised to read from some MS supporters critisizing Merc's decision.

What is the beef, it is the team's prerogative and it is perfectly legal.

#145 RoryF1

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 17:02

Lots of faux outrage in this thread.

#146 femi

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 17:06

Rosberg said he was much quicker than Lewis. Brawn responded that Lewis could go much quicker, too. But that WAS a lie. Lewis could not go much quicker as he marginal on fuel. I dont know how there's any denying that or how it was 'short-sighted'. And by the way, that post was a response to somebody in the Mercedes thread who applauded Brawn's 'honesty' in the situation.


RB said LH could go faster and he gave the reason - LH is driving at the pace the team dictated. It is therefore obvious that LH was restrained by the team. The truth is LH could go faster but if he did, he might not finish the race. Listening to interviews given by both drivers, they both knew why LH had to peg his pace.

NR also said he wanted to see what will happen if he had a go at the RBs but he also conceeded that he could not have been able to maintain that attack as he also would have needed to peg pace to conserve fuel as well:

"Of course I wanted to go for it, and go for the Red Bulls and see what we could do. I don't know how far I would have got and I had to save a bit of fuel again, but nothing unusual."


I don't see any lie at all.


#147 F1ultimate

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 18:08

All that is fine, but I think LH needs to learn to be a bit more ruthless. I think Merc wants to build the team around him and it is going to happen regardless of what people say. He (LH) is not used to it yet but that will happen. That was Ross winning formula with MS and I am a bit surprised to read from some MS supporters critisizing Merc's decision.

What is the beef, it is the team's prerogative and it is perfectly legal.


You are absolutely right. Not every win will be morally right. Just ask Alonso, Vettel or Schumi. Lewis will need to win the dark side if he wish to win a challenging WDC which might entail siding with Ross without being apologetic about it.

#148 windtravels

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 18:41

It's really bad form if Lauda came out criticising Ross brawn for his decision today to German media. Really bad form, not constructive at all.

#149 August

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 18:43

I think Merc were favouring Lewis today. Saying the drivers they may overtake but they need to keep it clean would've been enogh to ensure the WCC points.

But why would Merc favour Lewis. Maybe they feel he has the better chance to win WDC than Nico has. Or maybe sponsors would rather see Lewis winning WDC. But given how difficult it's to win WDC, it's better that the commercially less attractive driver wins WDC than that the commercially more attractive driver beat his teammate, yet loses WDC.

But I have a wilder theory. It probably costed a lot to get Lewis to Merc. If Nico beats Lewis but they do badly in the championship, board of Daimler thinks the team management made a big mistake by hiring Lewis. It's quite the same who wins the championship for the team, but if neither driver wins the title, it's worse for the team management if the more-paid driver is the worse one. Sounds unbelievable but well possible in F1.

#150 Hairy

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 18:45

Rosberg said he was much quicker than Lewis. Brawn responded that Lewis could go much quicker, too. But that WAS a lie. Lewis could not go much quicker as he marginal on fuel. I dont know how there's any denying that or how it was 'short-sighted'. And by the way, that post was a response to somebody in the Mercedes thread who applauded Brawn's 'honesty' in the situation.



and yet the 3 times NR did overtake Hamilton, he couldn't make it stick.