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Webber vs Vettel - Malaysia 2013 - who was right?


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#51 jrg19

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:45

Webber looks like a broken man.

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#52 DanardiF1

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:46

Webber looks like a broken man.


I hope he channels whatever he's feeling into performances that give Vettel more than a lot to think about.

#53 NateF

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:46

I think all bridges are well and truly burnt. Great battle, taking right and wrong out of it.

#54 mark f1

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:47

It won't happen, but RBR should suspend Vettel for a race. The team is always #1 and Vettel completely disregarding team orders shouldn't be tolerated. They need to teach him a lesson. Saying sorry after the fact isn't good enough.

#55 jrg19

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:47

Vettel spewing a mountain of shit right now.

#56 sv401

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:48

Yeah have to say it was a pretty big mistake from vettel, disappointing to be honest


There is no excuse needed for winning and taking the championship lead, and it is stupid to call that a mistake. Alonso or Hamilton would not have done otherwise. "Nice guys" like Massa or Kovalainen would have bended over, but that is one of the reason why they are not champions, in addition to lacking the pace. By the way, those who are honest will admit that Webber would not have settled for the second place either. He seems to have some of the mentality of Alonso, even if he lacks the consistent pace.

#57 mattferg

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:48

It's a bit of a complicated situation and I'm seeing a lot of hypocrites on the board today who criticise things like what Mercedes did today and Ferrari holding Massa back, breaking the seal, 'Fernando is faster' etc but criticise this from Seb as well. This was perfectly normal before team orders.

I see this as Seb being Seb, ruthless, risking his race to be at the top. RBR really do need to decide - either be like McLaren and have your drivers fight till championship time etc or have a preference ie Ferrari. Mark and Seb trading points might be good for the WCC but it makes the WDC harder. Seb should've listened to his team today but they should've let him past too.

#58 sha

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:48

Vettel was absolutely in the wrong. If you're told to hold position, you hold position. Webber just asked on Sky Sports if he accepts Vettel's apology.....he tries to avoid answering that question....suggests he doesn't accept it in my opinion.


apologies mean nothing when the damage is done

#59 mnmracer

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:48

And if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you are no longer a racing driver because we are competing, we are competing to win. -Ayrton Senna

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#60 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:49

The Vettel fans are hilarious. They have an excuse for everything.

Silverstone 2011- Mark was told to hold position. The position was held. One could say Mark could've passed especially considering he's definitely number 2. But I don't want to debate semantics, not the point here.

Vettel fans have plenty of shitty comments about Mercedes team orders, but have no problem with Vettel asking the team to make Mark move over

Furthermore, think team orders are bullshit when it's Seb being asked to hold position, while still criticizing Mercedes. Of course they refuse to see the double standard.

The main point here is that Vettel ignored his bosses orders. If you or I do that, we get fired. But as Mark said, Seb will have protection. If Nico would've passed Lewis, he'd be in deep shit. If Felipe ignored orders, he would be too. But when Seb does it, it's ok. Vettel fans just want to ignore these facts and push the focus to Mark for racing him hard... Classic

#61 DILLIGAF

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:51

Sebastian took a petulant sucker punch on a team mate who'd been ordered to tune the engine down and coast to the end of the race. In what reality is a bitch move like that right?


:up: Summed up perfectly.

#62 DanardiF1

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:51

:up: You don't win championships by being Mr Nice guy.

I mean come on how boring would of todays race of been if Vettel had held station just like Mercedes. It would of been boring. Ferrari and Lotus should be kicking themselves for allowing them to get in the position to play games the way they did.


Fangio
Hill (Graham and Damon)
Clark
Stewart
Prost
Schumacher
Button
Hamilton
Raikkonen

All team players and won titles.

#63 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:51

apologies mean nothing when the damage is done


Exactly, it doesn't change the record books or the points totals. Red Bull team photo cancelled apparently.

#64 Group B

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:51

Seb in the wrong, but it shouldn't be an issue; the top 4 situation left a sour taste today. Just let them race for God sake.

#65 gillesthegenius

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:51

The pathetic comment earlier in the race was disgusting too.


More pathetic than keeping your faster team mate behind with the help of your team boss and then coming to the podium and saying that your team mate actually deserved to stand there? And more pathetic than adding that its what racing is? Really? Kidding me?

#66 sha

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:51

There is no excuse needed for winning and taking the championship lead, and it is stupid to call that a mistake. Alonso or Hamilton would not have done otherwise. "Nice guys" like Massa or Kovalainen would have bended over, but that is one of the reason why they are not champions, in addition to lacking the pace. By the way, those who are honest will admit that Webber would not have settled for the second place either. He seems to have some of the mentality of Alonso, even if he lacks the consistent pace.


He's done it plenty of times

#67 v@sh

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:51

Let me get this straight...
Vettel is a prick at Silvo 2011 and he is a prick now too???

What type of goggles do some people wear? Pathetic.


Webber was alongside in 2011 down Hangar to prove a point and backed off. Yet he still obeyed orders, something Seb did not do. That's the difference. Another difference would be that the team hasn't been 100% supportive of him all those years previously. Quite a big difference as to who the prick is. Webber was the prick in Brazil last year but Vettel is the prick on this occasion.

#68 seahawk

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:52

Hope Webber will take his revenge. Maybe he can turn around Vettel at the start at a few races.

#69 rasul

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:53

That is a difficult situation. I can understand why Mark is upset, but this is racing. Vettel is too proud "to maintain the gap" or whatever. I can understand why Vettel got frustrated: Mark ended up in his P1 only because of the team's strategy fail with Vettel's 1st pitstop. If he's faster than Mark, why the hell not?

And does someone seriously think Webber did not turn the engine back up again while being attacked? The better racer won in the end. Kudos to Vettel.

#70 FigJam

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:53

:rotfl: You don't win 3 championships with just luck


Vettel has had, for the last 3 seasons, as close to the perfect scenario to gain championship glory as possible. Fastest cars...favourite son...average teammate....average teammate who is a forced number 2....

Not many drivers get that perfect scenario around them for an eternity. All the elements are there for regular glory.

#71 muramasa

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:54

Firstly, this is why I don't like team orders, and a good case for radio being banned except for emergency maybe? But to be fair it seems like webber has held station many a time and had turned his car down so vettel should not have done it. Actually pretty low, although I enjoyed every second of it even though webber came out second best.

Love that these two are at each other again!

If Horner and Newey are not celebrating a vettel victory on the pitwall you can be sure there is a very good reason for it.

From teams perspective team order is a must, as maximizing point is their ultimate or one of two ultimate objectives.

Agree with the rest tho, it's great to see drivers giving it 100% into it, absolutely enjoying it.

Those who are complaining about this want to see "amicable" Ferrari/Merc kind of thing over this?


#72 jrg19

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:54

More pathetic than keeping your faster team mate behind with the help of your team boss and then coming to the podium and saying that your team mate actually deserved to stand there? And more pathetic than adding that its what racing is? Really? Kidding me?


Just better drivers and team players, Vettel has gone down in almost everyones estimations.

Nico should have been allowed passed but Brawn told them not to change position.

#73 gillesthegenius

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:55

When Webber is told to hold position and goes against orders he gets applauded, when Vettel does it, races him wheel to wheel for P1 and beats him, then Vettel's the prick.

Makes sense guys.


The world is apparently a better place when we have a German to hate irrespective of what he does. Great fun this. A mass exhibition of hypocracy on show today. :lol:

#74 choyothe

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:55

who was right?

This shouldn´t be a question at all! :drunk: :blush:


Yep, Vettel was right and Webber and the team wrong. :up:

I bet Webber is super pissed.

How many times has he been asked to "hold station" towards the end of the race when he was faster than Vettel. I lost count really.

Cheap shot by Vettel. But hey, Vettel should expect the same kind of "courtesy" from Webber from now on.


So name those occasions, I'm waiting.


I think all bridges are well and truly burnt. Great battle, taking right and wrong out of it.


Good. I hope Vettel humiliates Webber out again and kicks him out of the team at the end of the year, tired of that hypocritical clown.

The Vettel fans are hilarious. They have an excuse for everything.

Silverstone 2011- Mark was told to hold position. The position was held. One could say Mark could've passed especially considering he's definitely number 2. But I don't want to debate semantics, not the point here.


GTFO with that revisionist history. Team order as given in the last 5 laps with Seb's engine turned down and with Seb protecting his title lead (much more understandable than this crap), Mark disobeys and tries multiple times to get past.


#75 mnmracer

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:56

Vettel has had, for the last 3 seasons, as close to the perfect scenario to gain championship glory as possible. Fastest cars...favourite son...average teammate....average teammate who is a forced number 2....

Not many drivers get that perfect scenario around them for an eternity. All the elements are there for regular glory.

yeah, we saw that today...

#76 DanardiF1

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:56

More pathetic than keeping your faster team mate behind with the help of your team boss and then coming to the podium and saying that your team mate actually deserved to stand there? And more pathetic than adding that its what racing is? Really? Kidding me?


Yes it is more pathetic. It is undermining what your employers have asked of you for your own gain. If you are referring to Mercedes, at least each driver had the honour to understand that what their team asked is what they should do. And then have the grace to understand that respect is a two way street and favours are easily returned. Vettel had to be briefed into humility... bit pathetic isn't it?

#77 MikeV1987

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:57

It won't happen, but RBR should suspend Vettel for a race. The team is always #1 and Vettel completely disregarding team orders shouldn't be tolerated. They need to teach him a lesson. Saying sorry after the fact isn't good enough.


LOL

Wow, I mean... really?

#78 Diablobb81

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:58

The main point here is that Vettel ignored his bosses orders. If you or I do that, we get fired. But as Mark said, Seb will have protection. If Nico would've passed Lewis, he'd be in deep shit. If Felipe ignored orders, he would be too. But when Seb does it, it's ok. Vettel fans just want to ignore these facts and push the focus to Mark for racing him hard... Classic


Mark ignored his bosses plenty of times. Silverstone being one you choose to misinterpret.
Seb was wrong but Mark isn't a innocent victim in the team.

Edited by Diablobb81, 24 March 2013 - 10:59.


#79 Disgrace

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:58

100% Vettel fault. as simply as that.


Ultimately yes, but ultimately the team have a huge vested interest in Vettel. Plus he is the faster of the two drivers with three titles delivered. Of course he can do what he likes.

Edited by Disgrace, 24 March 2013 - 10:58.


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#80 Topsu

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:59

Vettel wanted those 7 points. He could have used an extra 7 points many times in the past years. The fact that Webber was already saving the car makes Vettel's move 'dirty', but same can be said about Webber's ''Schumi push'' against the pit wall, that was bad. Overall I'd say Webber should have won, but I understand why Vettel wanted to overtake in this time when the drivers don't even push nearly 100% in the race.

#81 y2cwr2005

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:59

I think today is exactly what Webber needed to happen. Now he can go and fight for wins as selfishly as Schui v2 does.

#82 mattferg

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:59

Just better drivers and team players, Vettel has gone down in almost everyones estimations.

Nico should have been allowed passed but Brawn told them not to change position.


Nico should've been allowed to pass... But Vettel should've stayed behind? Err... Guess your avatar says it all really, biased.

#83 H2H

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:01

The Vettel fans are hilarious. They have an excuse for everything.

Silverstone 2011- Mark was told to hold position. The position was held. One could say Mark could've passed especially considering he's definitely number 2. But I don't want to debate semantics, not the point here.

Vettel fans have plenty of shitty comments about Mercedes team orders, but have no problem with Vettel asking the team to make Mark move over

Furthermore, think team orders are bullshit when it's Seb being asked to hold position, while still criticizing Mercedes. Of course they refuse to see the double standard.

The main point here is that Vettel ignored his bosses orders. If you or I do that, we get fired. But as Mark said, Seb will have protection. If Nico would've passed Lewis, he'd be in deep shit. If Felipe ignored orders, he would be too. But when Seb does it, it's ok. Vettel fans just want to ignore these facts and push the focus to Mark for racing him hard... Classic


You get it quite terribly wrong. In Silverstone 2011 Mark himself said he ignored the teamorders and raced his teammate. In Malaysia 2013 Seb ignored teamorders and raced his teammate. I always said team orders like 'mantain the gap' are perfectly understandable in the last laps of a race. Mark should have backed off then and Seb should have backed off today. The team will have some words with the drivers.

Still not far as bad as what Ferrari did in 2010...

#84 DarthWillie

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:02

Fangio
Hill (Graham and Damon)
Clark
Stewart
Prost
Schumacher
Button
Hamilton
Raikkonen

All team players and won titles.

Hamilton?? Prost??? Schumacher??? you've got to be kidding me

#85 gillesthegenius

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:02

Just better drivers and team players, Vettel has gone down in almost everyones estimations.

Nico should have been allowed passed but Brawn told them not to change position.



#86 toroRosso

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:03

You know after the treatment Vettel has gotten in the past years from Mark. Mark pushing when being told not to atleast couple times in my memory. With all that I'd treat the situation the same. Also you can't have a Superior Vettel and ask for not superior Vettel at the same time. His nature isn't to fall back when the team feels like rewarding Webber for whatever reason.

Messy post but nope Vettel shouldn't apologize. He is scared to have massive moronic internet troll on him and will regret the apology later. Then again I think he's learning to control the masses, that's a feat.

#87 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:04

At least I'm happy that Webber is no Barrichello or Massa who just play second fiddle and don't do or say anything about it.

#88 DanardiF1

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:05

Hamilton?? Prost??? Schumacher??? you've got to be kidding me


Hamilton showed it today and many times before.

Schumacher was the ultimate team player... yes as number 1 driver that meant a lot of things going his way, but he understood and respected immensely the work his teammates did. Check Malaysia 1999 as the ultimate example... over a second faster than Irvine but gave him the win to help his teammate's title bid (which if he'd won would've meant Irvine was the one who returned the title to Ferrari and not Schumacher... very humble of him)

Prost also understood the role of the number 1 and 2 driver and how respect goes both ways. You'll be thinking of his battles with Senna but there was no clear number 1 there and that's what irked Prost.

#89 sv401

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:05

He's done it plenty of times


While having a similar tyre advantage, and early in the season ?

#90 bourbon

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:05

The Vettel fans are hilarious. They have an excuse for everything.

Silverstone 2011- Mark was told to hold position. The position was held. One could say Mark could've passed especially considering he's definitely number 2. But I don't want to debate semantics, not the point here.

Vettel fans have plenty of shitty comments about Mercedes team orders, but have no problem with Vettel asking the team to make Mark move over

Furthermore, think team orders are bullshit when it's Seb being asked to hold position, while still criticizing Mercedes. Of course they refuse to see the double standard.

The main point here is that Vettel ignored his bosses orders. If you or I do that, we get fired. But as Mark said, Seb will have protection. If Nico would've passed Lewis, he'd be in deep shit. If Felipe ignored orders, he would be too. But when Seb does it, it's ok. Vettel fans just want to ignore these facts and push the focus to Mark for racing him hard... Classic


So let me get this straight. You think RBR should FIRE or BAN their Triple World Champion? Lol, come one dude, that is never going to happen. They wouldn't do that to Mark or even an STRF driver. They get mad and say they will speak to the driver, but that's all we ever see.

If that is not what you mean, exactly what do you mean by "protection" because at the moment, not one single, solitary soul at RBR, including Dr. Marko, have had any defense for Seb, nor have they had a single word of praise for his race effort.

Seb apologized. He was wrong not to follow Team orders. Mark was wrong in Silverstone 11 too and even more so in Brazil 12. But guess what, it is racing and likely that Mark and Seb will do it again.

Edited by bourbon, 24 March 2013 - 11:09.


#91 gillesthegenius

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:05

You get it quite terribly wrong. In Silverstone 2011 Mark himself said he ignored the teamorders and raced his teammate. In Malaysia 2013 Seb ignored teamorders and raced his teammate. I always said team orders like 'mantain the gap' are perfectly understandable in the last laps of a race. Mark should have backed off then and Seb should have backed off today. The team will have some words with the drivers.

Still not far as bad as what Ferrari did in 2010...


Well said. :up:

#92 mattferg

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:05

You know after the treatment Vettel has gotten in the past years from Mark. Mark pushing when being told not to atleast couple times in my memory. With all that I'd treat the situation the same. Also you can't have a Superior Vettel and ask for not superior Vettel at the same time. His nature isn't to fall back when the team feels like rewarding Webber for whatever reason.

Messy post but nope Vettel shouldn't apologize. He is scared to have massive moronic internet troll on him and will regret the apology later. Then again I think he's learning to control the masses, that's a feat.


I completely agree - if team orders are to be used they need to be done like what Ross Brawn did today. I have no clue what Horner was playing at, probably trying to please Mark.

#93 jerriy

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:08

Nico should've been allowed to pass... But Vettel should've stayed behind? Err...

Funny innit?

Team Orders should either be obeyed by all or disobeyed by all

Take a pick.

What's NEVER ever acceptable is TOs becoming an exclusive FIA favor afforded only by Alonso.

#94 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:08

GTFO with that revisionist history. Team order as given in the last 5 laps with Seb's engine turned down and with Seb protecting his title lead (much more understandable than this crap), Mark disobeys and tries multiple times to get past.


See the deflection here I mentioned in my post? Let's talk about today. Let's talk about the failure to do what the boss said. Let's talk about the request for team orders requested before the race was half way through. The same team orders you have a problem with Mercedes giving, yet it's ok for your driver to ask for them?
Dude I think I'm pretty damn objective, I just don't get why you can't recognize what took place today.


Mark ignored his bosses plenty of times. Silverstone being one you choose to misinterpret.
Seb was wrong but Mark isn't a innocent victim in the team.

I didn't misinterpret. I think in 2011 Mark pulled alongside to prove a point and then backed off. I will agree I don't believe Mark is an innocent school boy either..


Ultimately yes, but ultimately the team have a huge vested interest in Vettel. Plus he is the faster of the two drivers with three titles delivered. Of course he can do what he likes.

Agreed, except for the last part. But it seems that's ultimately whats happening. I think what Lewis said on the podium was genuine. I think what Vettel is saying now is spin from their PR department because RB are in the spotlight over this. Which IMHO, makes Vettel look a bit worse. He should just say f**k it, I did it. I also won the last 3 WDC's. Which is possibly what has happened but is trying to play nice to a certain extent.


#95 Wolbo

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:09

That is a difficult situation.

No it's not. I'm a Vettel fan and like the guy but if you get a team order to keep position you can't just disregard it. That's simply wrong.

Hope Vettel learns from this and doesn't do it again as it will just stain his reputation. He's a good enough driver not to need this stuff. An apology after the fact is easy but it's still good he made it.

#96 f1rules

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:10

Vettel took care of business. He did not become 3 time world champ by being a mug. Alonso would have done the same thing.



Vettel is a racer, wants it badly, just like Senna did. Vettel is going into the history books as one of the current greats. :) Webber wasn't quick enough today.



even i some time hate him for his arrogance and childish behavior, his killer instinct is just :eek: he is a phenomonal driver with a will to win like no other, except maybe alonso and hamilton

#97 Massa_f1

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:10

Had Vettel of won this under team orders (Webber now allowed to overtake Vettel) people would be complaining about that. It is what is at the end of the day. He wanted the extra 7 points which will be very important at the last race.

Edited by Massa_f1, 24 March 2013 - 11:11.


#98 f1rules

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:11

webber should just do the same the next time simple

#99 DrProzac

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:11

I don't know who was "right" but the racing was good. As it should be.

It seems like Mark yielded a bit at the end, if so than it's a shame because the battle for the lead could have been longer.

While I like Mark very much (more than Seb) and I often support him during the races I don't like team orders. So I can't blame Vettel much and I'm happy we didn't watch a team orders procession, though I wish that after the battle Mark would won, not Seb.
On other hand, if the orders were really issued, Mark slowed down and was unprepared to defend, than what Vettel did was shameful. I'm sure there was a way to show Webber that they're racing before passing him.

The podium ceremony was interesting. You could also see that Hamilton wasn't happy with the way he got the podium finish (good on him!).

Edited by DrProzac, 24 March 2013 - 11:12.


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#100 jerriy

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:11

Had Vettel of won this under team orders (Webber now allowed to overtake Vettel) people would be complaining about that.

That's how you know they have no valid point to make and no ground to stand on.