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Webber vs Vettel - Malaysia 2013 - who was right?


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#1651 bourbon

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 18:39

What do you mean you didn't hear that before, you commented on the post I referenced above in the other thread and now have subsequently deleted that post.

Just because it was Austrian TV doesn't mean it is correct.;)

I agree, things do get more ridiculous by the hour. :rolleyes:


Yeah, I followed your link, read your post, and promptly forgot that I had changed threads. Realizing I was in the Teammates thread - horrors - I deleted that post and returned here to answer, lol.

It wasn't just Austrian tv, but that combined with the few stories we got, very played down by the media. Briatore's comment, if said about Vettel for instance in reverse circumstances, would have raised a hail storm of comment. Horner confirmed Brazil though, which for me was the most telling.

The significance of that was that it raised the issue of Seb having Brazil in mind to some degree at Malaysia. That is rather a side dish though. As I have stated, I supported Mark following Silverstone because he caught Seb and was racing. I see nothing different in this circumstance and I support Seb. People say Mark was a sitting duck, but you can check reports and recall that Seb was in the same boat in Silverstone with a wheel nut issue, forcing him to chill in the lead.

I think Mark was reminded of Brazil and Silverstone shortly after the post race presser, because his demeanor changed from name calling, accusatory statements and an overall embittered attitude, to a lightened demeanor together with statements about how 'outsiders wouldn't understand' and 'there was history between the drivers' 'Seb and he had respect for one another' in his interview with Lee - and he hasn't said a word since. That helps to minimize the bite of his initial hypocrisy, but he should own up to it.

It was a poorly thought out team order, only the second race, and the cost to Vettel was just to high for him to waste time on. It would have cost him a win, the lead in the wdc, and a 14 point swing to his teammate and potential wdc competitor just to be seen as a nice guy. Not worth it!

Plus vettel had run a better race, easier on fuel and tires. It is easy to understand why he would go ahead and pass Webber.


Yup, agreed. :up:

Edited by bourbon, 06 April 2013 - 18:44.


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#1652 Black Widow

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 22:43

Yeah, I followed your link, read your post, and promptly forgot that I had changed threads. Realizing I was in the Teammates thread - horrors - I deleted that post and returned here to answer, lol.

My question was how could you write this....

I didn't hear that before now. That's even worse. Not only did Seb make wiser tyre choices, he did better on fuel too. And Webber wants pampered to the flag anyway? Multi-21 my a$$. That is straight up BS. There is no way that RBR should have held Seb back, either in the stint where he complained that they get Mark - slowpoking it - outta the way or at the end when he took matters into his own hands.

This gets more ridiculous by the hour.


......acting all indignant and stunned in this post ("I didn't hear that before now. That's even worse.") when 2 1/2 hours earlier you had responded (including quotes from my post) to my post about Schmidt's article on fuel consumption.

I suppose it just comes down to the definition of "is" or in this case the word "now". :p



#1653 Sakae

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 07:18

Berger's opinion

The always plain-speaking Austrian puts Vettel in the same category as the great Senna, as well as Michael Schumacher.

“There are drivers like Senna or Schumacher or Vettel who develop an extra selfishness on the track,” Berger told Germany’s Auto Bild.

“Situations such as in Malaysia brings out their killer instinct, where they can think of one thing only — ‘I want to win the race’.

“Ultimately that’s what makes you a three time, five time, seven time world champion,” he added.

Some, like 1997 world champion Jacques Villeneuve, have slammed Vettel’s Sepang tactics as revealing his lack of “honour” and “respect”, but Berger thinks it is “the others not winning who sleep the worst”.

He therefore advises Mark Webber to “wipe your mouth, put your foot down and prove to the world that you can beat Sebastian Vettel”.

And that’s because “guys like Schumacher, Senna and Vettel” will always ignore team orders “unless it is to their advantage”. (GMM)

Read More http://www.yallaf1.c...selfishishness/



#1654 alx346

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 09:32

You have to wonder where they go from here for the rest of the year?

If this was Vettel's payback for last season, do they shake hands and that's it.. team orders from now on??
Or do they letc them race?? Or most probably they will continue to ignore the pit wall..

I am a big Webber fan, I have followed his whole career in f1, but he's just gotta get on with it.. finally beat Seb and off to lotus next year

#1655 sprice

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 13:45

You have to wonder where they go from here for the rest of the year?

If this was Vettel's payback for last season, do they shake hands and that's it.. team orders from now on??
Or do they letc them race?? Or most probably they will continue to ignore the pit wall..

I am a big Webber fan, I have followed his whole career in f1, but he's just gotta get on with it.. finally beat Seb and off to lotus next year


Yup, particularly as from my (undoubtedly biased :)) view Malaysia seemed very unusual in that it looked geared towards Webber - fastest pit stops, strategy, team orders..... Has Dietrich given orders for a Webber push this year and Seb responded with over my dead body!

Can't wait - though they'll probably be keeping their heads down and a low profile I'd imagine after the furore.

#1656 Sakae

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 14:47

Horner:

"Multi-21 means car two ahead of car one. Multi-12 means car one ahead of car two," Horner told Sky Sports F1.

"It's not complicated. It's not that difficult to translate, but both our drivers in the last three races have failed to understand both of those messages.


Oh, OK then...

#1657 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 17:11

Horner:


Oh, OK then...



There you go the scandals first and probably last casualty! Blame the code itself, good plan. Much better than trying to blame the drivers or god forbid, himself!

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 07 April 2013 - 17:13.


#1658 SpaMaster

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 17:46

He is not blaming the code. He is saying a code does not get more straight-forward than that and that both his drivers don't pay heed to not race each other.

#1659 Sakae

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 18:03

There you go the scandals first and probably last casualty! Blame the code itself, good plan. Much better than trying to blame the drivers or god forbid, himself!

SpaMaster is correct in his assertion, and you seems to misunderstood. The code was well understood, but disobeyed by both drivers, Horner thinks. Since this is a situation, under circumstances he made clear that they will need from now on to control their drivers and the race differently. That's how I am interpreting his sarcasm. There is no point issuing orders unless you can enforce them, that's an old adage, and it all comes to the original suspicion raised in here initially, that RBR management has to take responsibility for this disobedience as well. Had they fired Webber last year, or charged him heavily, I am sure Vettel would have responded differently, assuming he really heard the code properly, but if you let it go easily with Webber, than why worry this time around?

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#1660 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 19:54

SpaMaster is correct in his assertion, and you seems to misunderstood. The code was well understood, but disobeyed by both drivers, Horner thinks. Since this is a situation, under circumstances he made clear that they will need from now on to control their drivers and the race differently. That's how I am interpreting his sarcasm. There is no point issuing orders unless you can enforce them, that's an old adage, and it all comes to the original suspicion raised in here initially, that RBR management has to take responsibility for this disobedience as well. Had they fired Webber last year, or charged him heavily, I am sure Vettel would have responded differently, assuming he really heard the code properly, but if you let it go easily with Webber, than why worry this time around?



Yes and this was my point . Horner should be responsible for the lack of compliance by his drivers firstly because he seems to be not respected by his drivers in these situations and secondly because an order like this one on the second race of the season was not well thought out and probably is the reason for the lack of respect in the first place!

Calling a team order without a valid reason just begs for it to be ignored or refused.


ps. They are not going to fire Webber because who are they going to find at that high a skill level and be willing to be a support driver to Vettel?

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 07 April 2013 - 19:57.


#1661 bourbon

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 20:05

Horner:
"Multi-21 means car two ahead of car one. Multi-12 means car one ahead of car two," Horner told Sky Sports F1.

"It's not complicated. It's not that difficult to translate, but both our drivers in the last three races have failed to understand both of those messages.

Oh, OK then...



"Red Bull to 'give up' Multi-21"

I fell off my chair laughing when I read that headline. :rotfl:





#1662 Afterburner

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 20:55

Well put. This thread was abandoned long ago by all but the staunchest Vettel fans, egging each other on to new levels of absurdity.

That doesn't explain why you're here. :wave:

#1663 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 08:49

Love to know if Sakae, Sin, MikeV1987 etc etc had such a problem with Team Orders when they benefitted Vettel at Canada 2010.... this was before Vettel was a World Champion, and he was also somewhat behind on WDC points to Webber at the time.

http://forums.autosp...a...t&p=6215121

Webber complied without any dissentive action. Perhaps by Silverstone 2011 he knew the courtesy wouldn't be returned?

#1664 Sakae

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 09:01

Love to know if Sakae, Sin, MikeV1987 etc etc had such a problem with Team Orders when they benefitted Vettel at Canada 2010.... this was before Vettel was a World Champion, and he was also somewhat behind on WDC points to Webber at the time.

http://forums.autosp...a...t&p=6215121

Webber complied without any dissentive action. Perhaps by Silverstone 2011 he knew the courtesy wouldn't be returned?

It's not the way I see it. What you have witness here for past three weeks is a counteraction to disproportional attack lunched against Vettel, whilst there is certain past between those two, yet we haven't seen fraction of similar headlines about Webber. Horner claims that Webber disobeyed orders before, and you can tell me how many team bosses called for sanctions against him. In reality, as seen over winter, Vettel's fans are a quiet, and modest lot, IMO, compared to other groups, but sometimes enough is enough.

#1665 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 09:11

You haven't addressed the post, Sakae.

You've just said (again) how disappointed you are with the way Vettel's been treated over Malaysia.

Perhaps we haven't seen the headlines about Webber because the media thought his 2011 Silverstone actions were possibly justified given the situation at Canada the previous year, when Mark wasn't allowed to attack Seb? I don't think it's outside the realms of possibility.

Mark may well have disobeyed Team Orders before (Silverstone 2011, possibly Brazil 2012 for a minute or two) but does it all stretch back to the way he was treated at Canada 2010?

#1666 DarthWillie

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 09:16

Or Turkey 2009 een Webber profited from teamorders????

#1667 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 09:28

This is my take on it:

Canada 2010: Mark's ahead of Seb in the WDC by a decent margin. He's just come off the debacle of Turkey the previous round. He goes out and outqualifies Seb, but then he's given a gearbox penalty because RBR claims there's metal shavings in oil taken from Mark's gearbox post qualifying (dubious much??) This elevates Seb to 2nd on the grid, relegates Mark to 7th. Mark has a storming GP, and goes into the last stint with the SuperSofts and in striking distance of Seb, who at the same time is having his own gearbox issues. Mark's given a hold station order - which surely must have seemed completely bizarre to him given his Championship position at the time.

Post race, Mark's annoyed. He confirms that in his 2010 post-season book, and says he'd have more to say about the Canada race at a later date (probably when he's not working for RBR). It's probably likely that Mark's pacified by team management, who assure Mark the courtesy would be returned later in the same situation.

Fast forward to.....

Silverstone 2011: Mark's having a tough season, but feels he's still in the fight for the WDC by the Brit GP. Mark wasn't given any additional team support late in 2010 when he was the team's best shot at the WDC, and is probably still annoyed at that. So he feels it's about time he asserts himself and late in the race decides to have a run at Seb and see how far he can push it with Team Management. He pushes fairly hard, but in the end obeys the orders.... again.

(speculation) RBR Management sits both drivers down post-Silverstone and affirms that a Team Order needs to be obeyed.

Fast forward to.....

Brazil 2012: Mark's out of the fight, but makes it clear to Seb that he's still around by not completely rolling over for Seb at race start but eventually easily gives way mid-race as he correctly should. Horner thanks Mark.

So Mark gets to Malaysia 2013, has a great race, but Team Orders work against him. Again.

Shouldn't he be bloody annoyed? Isnt there good reason the press are all over Vettel by now?

edit: spelling

Edited by NotSoSilentBob, 08 April 2013 - 09:44.


#1668 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 09:34

Or Turkey 2009 een Webber profited from teamorders????


How did Webber profit from Team Orders in Turkey 2009? Vettel blew his chance of the win on lap 1, and was on a different strategy from Webber.

Are you just going around looking for old races where Vettel finished close behind Webber and then claiming that because he was behind Mark, it MUST have been Team Orders? :well:

#1669 Sin

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 09:44

You haven't addressed the post, Sakae.

You've just said (again) how disappointed you are with the way Vettel's been treated over Malaysia.

Perhaps we haven't seen the headlines about Webber because the media thought his 2011 Silverstone actions were possibly justified given the situation at Canada the previous year, when Mark wasn't allowed to attack Seb? I don't think it's outside the realms of possibility.

Mark may well have disobeyed Team Orders before (Silverstone 2011, possibly Brazil 2012 for a minute or two) but does it all stretch back to the way he was treated at Canada 2010?



there were quite a few articles mentioning Webbers ignorance of Teamorders... at least in german media.... but I won't google for them now... I'm sick today ....

#1670 Sakae

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 11:28

You haven't addressed the post, Sakae.

You've just said (again) how disappointed you are with the way Vettel's been treated over Malaysia.

Perhaps we haven't seen the headlines about Webber because the media thought his 2011 Silverstone actions were possibly justified given the situation at Canada the previous year, when Mark wasn't allowed to attack Seb? I don't think it's outside the realms of possibility.

Mark may well have disobeyed Team Orders before (Silverstone 2011, possibly Brazil 2012 for a minute or two) but does it all stretch back to the way he was treated at Canada 2010?

Sorry for seemingly sidestepping the issue you mentioned, but after three weeks, I am trying slowly to exit this mess, since details are sketchy, and what was said might or might not be the complete story, if the truth at all, thus there is no point anymore to argue about it. (Reasons for ordering Code 21).
With some degree of sarcasm I am merely noticing that from unequivocal The TRUTH (as proclaimed by Brundle and his equivalents), might not be as accurate as they stated after all, but I doubt they will apologize or try to rectify it in any way.
I do not recall incident in Canada, to be frank, nor do I recall who did what and how media or fans responded. I just have no memory of it. What you are pointing out is however consistent with something I mentioned already several times, that RBR bears portion of the brunt for situation we are in. They seems to opened can of worms long time ago by closing their eyes – wink, wink -, drivers have their take on each incident, and now there is mess on RB' doorsteps. They shall also clean it up, as far as I am concerned, unfortunately it might be only Vettel who will bear consequences.


#1671 goingthedistance

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 11:55

There are countless other times when Mark has tucked in behind Vettel rather than fighting him, even though he looks to have the pace to try. Malaysia 2010 and Suzuka 2010 come to mind. Those points may have cost him the WDC in 2010.

#1672 swerved

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 12:05

How did Webber profit from Team Orders in Turkey 2009? Vettel blew his chance of the win on lap 1, and was on a different strategy from Webber.

Are you just going around looking for old races where Vettel finished close behind Webber and then claiming that because he was behind Mark, it MUST have been Team Orders? :well:




"In the closing stages of the race Vettel quickly closed in on Webber, cutting his lead to a little over a second. This reality was contradicted by the team, who told Vettel that Webber was quicker:

Mark is faster, mark is faster. Sebastian: save your car, save your car. Mark is faster.

The sub-text to the message was unmistakeable – Vettel was being ordered not to overtake Webber."



http://www.f1fanatic...d-bull-tactics/

#1673 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 12:08

I don't think Seb's going to bear any consequences at all. Points are in the bank, after all. And they wont even sanction him, let alone bench him.

I genuinely fear for Webber's personal sense of self-worth, however.

I agree with you, that this entire situation is ultimately RBR management's making. They should have either pulled Webber into line sometime ago and flat-out said 'THIS will be your role from next contract' (ala Rubens) and given him the chance to leave, OR they should have made things perfectly clear to Vettel that Webber's going to be treated as your equal and if you want a Barrichello-type of driver backing you up you wont be getting it here.

#1674 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 12:11

"In the closing stages of the race Vettel quickly closed in on Webber, cutting his lead to a little over a second. This reality was contradicted by the team, who told Vettel that Webber was quicker:

Mark is faster, mark is faster. Sebastian: save your car, save your car. Mark is faster.

The sub-text to the message was unmistakeable – Vettel was being ordered not to overtake Webber."

http://www.f1fanatic...d-bull-tactics/


That was in the era of regularly expiring Red Bulls. Not to point out the obvious, but perhaps the message was actually 'Mark can go faster, but we don't want him to. Or you either'.

?

#1675 Sakae

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 12:17

There are countless other times when Mark has tucked in behind Vettel rather than fighting him, even though he looks to have the pace to try. Malaysia 2010 and Suzuka 2010 come to mind. Those points may have cost him the WDC in 2010.

Like at Silverstone? That's difficulty with drivers seen in tandem. Had Webber tried to attack, Vettel might responded and simply increase the speed as well, who knows today, and unless the team recovers data and provide you with analysis whether Vettel could fend-off the attack successfully, we are left guessing over what might have been, but never was. I have no doubt in my mind, that Turkey 2010 incident comes to mind on every similar situation, what those two can do to each other.

#1676 Buttoneer

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 12:35

Sorry for seemingly sidestepping the issue you mentioned, but after three weeks, I am trying slowly to exit this mess, since details are sketchy, and what was said might or might not be the complete story, if the truth at all, thus there is no point anymore to argue about it. (Reasons for ordering Code 21).
With some degree of sarcasm I am merely noticing that from unequivocal The TRUTH (as proclaimed by Brundle and his equivalents), might not be as accurate as they stated after all, but I doubt they will apologize or try to rectify it in any way.
I do not recall incident in Canada, to be frank, nor do I recall who did what and how media or fans responded. I just have no memory of it. What you are pointing out is however consistent with something I mentioned already several times, that RBR bears portion of the brunt for situation we are in. They seems to opened can of worms long time ago by closing their eyes – wink, wink -, drivers have their take on each incident, and now there is mess on RB' doorsteps. They shall also clean it up, as far as I am concerned, unfortunately it might be only Vettel who will bear consequences.

It doesn't matter what the reasons are for the team ordering Multi 21 or what they have told the media or public. The team principal has the right to run his team in the manner in which he sees fit and he saw fit to issue a hold station order which was not obeyed. That is the only relevant truth.

#1677 Kelateboy

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 12:49

I don't think Seb's going to bear any consequences at all. Points are in the bank, after all. And they wont even sanction him, let alone bench him.

The precedent was set at Silverstone. Basically their hands are tied, unless they want to alienate their reigning 3x WDCs and push him closer towards Ferrari for 2015.



#1678 goingthedistance

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 13:41

Like at Silverstone? That's difficulty with drivers seen in tandem. Had Webber tried to attack, Vettel might responded and simply increase the speed as well, who knows today, and unless the team recovers data and provide you with analysis whether Vettel could fend-off the attack successfully, we are left guessing over what might have been, but never was. I have no doubt in my mind, that Turkey 2010 incident comes to mind on every similar situation, what those two can do to each other.


I'm not saying for sure that Mark would have got those points (personally I think in Sepang 2010 he would have, probably not in Suzuka) but that he obeyed the team and did not try to get those points. I think it's happened a lot more (both ways perhaps) then people are discussing. It's easy to just grab at Turkey 2010, but it was just the most visible. Red Bull has been implementing team orders for ages, many times beneath the radar.

I agree with you, that this entire situation is ultimately RBR management's making. They should have either pulled Webber into line sometime ago and flat-out said 'THIS will be your role from next contract' (ala Rubens) and given him the chance to leave, OR they should have made things perfectly clear to Vettel that Webber's going to be treated as your equal and if you want a Barrichello-type of driver backing you up you wont be getting it here.


I really agree with this. It would be much easier to respect RBR if they were clear cut about it in the way Ferrari are. But then I don't think Webber would accept that role, and they would lose their current combination. So instead they have this situation where they seem to lead him on, giving him the chance to win races in the first half of the season, but that is it.

#1679 Sakae

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 14:02

It doesn't matter what the reasons are for the team ordering Multi 21 or what they have told the media or public. The team principal has the right to run his team in the manner in which he sees fit and he saw fit to issue a hold station order which was not obeyed. That is the only relevant truth.

I don't think I have claimed anything else but exactly that. We know however today that extenuating circumstances existed why the order wasn’t obeyed.

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#1680 LukeM

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 14:05

This is my take on it:

Canada 2010: Mark's ahead of Seb in the WDC by a decent margin. He's just come off the debacle of Turkey the previous round. He goes out and outqualifies Seb, but then he's given a gearbox penalty because RBR claims there's metal shavings in oil taken from Mark's gearbox post qualifying (dubious much??) This elevates Seb to 2nd on the grid, relegates Mark to 7th. Mark has a storming GP, and goes into the last stint with the SuperSofts and in striking distance of Seb, who at the same time is having his own gearbox issues. Mark's given a hold station order - which surely must have seemed completely bizarre to him given his Championship position at the time.

Post race, Mark's annoyed. He confirms that in his 2010 post-season book, and says he'd have more to say about the Canada race at a later date (probably when he's not working for RBR). It's probably likely that Mark's pacified by team management, who assure Mark the courtesy would be returned later in the same situation.

Fast forward to.....

Silverstone 2011: Mark's having a tough season, but feels he's still in the fight for the WDC by the Brit GP. Mark wasn't given any additional team support late in 2010 when he was the team's best shot at the WDC, and is probably still annoyed at that. So he feels it's about time he asserts himself and late in the race decides to have a run at Seb and see how far he can push it with Team Management. He pushes fairly hard, but in the end obeys the orders.... again.

(speculation) RBR Management sits both drivers down post-Silverstone and affirms that a Team Order needs to be obeyed.

Fast forward to.....

Brazil 2012: Mark's out of the fight, but makes it clear to Seb that he's still around by not completely rolling over for Seb at race start but eventually easily gives way mid-race as he correctly should. Horner thanks Mark.

So Mark gets to Malaysia 2013, has a great race, but Team Orders work against him. Again.

Shouldn't he be bloody annoyed? Isnt there good reason the press are all over Vettel by now?

edit: spelling


:up:

#1681 sprice

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 20:29

I don't think Christian was being 100% truthful with the explanation of multi 21. I dont think he is lying, I just think he isn't telling the entire story. That is just my tin foil hat theory.


This article suggests it's a multi map setting:

Both Vettel and Webber were told to switch the multi map to setting 21 “multi 21″. The multi-map is a pre-programmable, driver selectable feature of the MES std ECU, on the RB9 the adjustment is on the right hand side of the steering wheel (below – on setting 4)


http://www.racecar-e...ian-grand-prix/


#1682 bourbon

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 20:44

How did Webber profit from Team Orders in Turkey 2009? Vettel blew his chance of the win on lap 1, and was on a different strategy from Webber.

Are you just going around looking for old races where Vettel finished close behind Webber and then claiming that because he was behind Mark, it MUST have been Team Orders? :well:


No. Vettel told the media that he was asked to hold station behind Mark. When asked if he was upset by it, he explained that there were times the driver had to do what was best for the team.

Malaysia 13, obviously, was not one of those times. :p

#1683 bourbon

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 22:02

This is my take on it:
Canada 2010: Mark's ahead of Seb in the WDC by a decent margin. He's just come off the debacle of Turkey the previous round. He goes out and outqualifies Seb, but then he's given a gearbox penalty because RBR claims there's metal shavings in oil taken from Mark's gearbox post qualifying (dubious much??) This elevates Seb to 2nd on the grid, relegates Mark to 7th. Mark has a storming GP, and goes into the last stint with the SuperSofts and in striking distance of Seb, who at the same time is having his own gearbox issues. Mark's given a hold station order - which surely must have seemed completely bizarre to him given his Championship position at the time.

Post race, Mark's annoyed. He confirms that in his 2010 post-season book, and says he'd have more to say about the Canada race at a later date (probably when he's not working for RBR). It's probably likely that Mark's pacified by team management, who assure Mark the courtesy would be returned later in the same situation.

Fast forward to.....

Silverstone 2011: Mark's having a tough season, but feels he's still in the fight for the WDC by the Brit GP. Mark wasn't given any additional team support late in 2010 when he was the team's best shot at the WDC, and is probably still annoyed at that. So he feels it's about time he asserts himself and late in the race decides to have a run at Seb and see how far he can push it with Team Management. He pushes fairly hard, but in the end obeys the orders.... again.

(speculation) RBR Management sits both drivers down post-Silverstone and affirms that a Team Order needs to be obeyed.

Fast forward to.....

Brazil 2012: Mark's out of the fight, but makes it clear to Seb that he's still around by not completely rolling over for Seb at race start but eventually easily gives way mid-race as he correctly should. Horner thanks Mark.

So Mark gets to Malaysia 2013, has a great race, but Team Orders work against him. Again.

Shouldn't he be bloody annoyed? Isnt there good reason the press are all over Vettel by now?



I read your take and respect your opinion, although I don't agree.

You state that in Brazil, Mark "made it clear to Seb that he was still around by not completely rolling over for Seb at the race start" - by nearly running him off track - which caused Seb to lose several positions in order to avoid a crash and which left him a prime target for the midfield benders - and allowing the Ferrari cars through. Later he sandwiched his teamate between himself and Kobayashi in a mean threesome on a fast corner. Then Mark proceded to let Alonso by during the race with barely a by your leave. Why shouldn't Seb have been mad as a hatter after Brazil?

I don't care about Canada where Mark was clearly mad at the team. If he's mad at the team, then take it out on the team, not on Seb. Seb is not Mark's personal whipping post for him to direct his anger at for what he sees as the team's misbehavior. In Silverstone, he raced fairly against Seb, so he did properly direct his anger (if any) toward the team - but Brazil was at best against both and at worst, a personal vendetta against Seb.

You ask if Mark shouldn't be bloody annoyed. Well perhaps, at the team for Canada and Silverstone - but he can (or should) only feel shame for his behavior in Brazil. His acts in Brazil should easily soothe any annoyance he feels after Malaysia.

Your question regarding the press - in short - no, the press should not be all over Vettel. They were not all over Mark for disobeying orders in Silverstone, so they are not being fair.

Edited by bourbon, 09 April 2013 - 06:43.


#1684 Lantern

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 04:19

Exactly as I see it bourbon. :up:

#1685 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 04:23

I don't care about Canada where Mark was clearly mad at the team. If he's mad at the team, then take it out on the team, not on Seb. Seb is not Mark's personal whipping post for him to direct his anger at for what he sees as the team's misbehavior. Iin Silverstone, he raced fairly against Seb, so he did properly direct his anger (if any) toward the team - but Brazil was at best against both and at worst, a personal vendetta against Seb.

You ask if Mark shouldn't be bloody annoyed. Well perhaps, at the team for Canada and Silverstone - but he can (or should) only feel shame for his behavior in Brazil. His acts in Brazil should easily soothe any annoyance he feels after Malaysia.

Your question regarding the press - in short - no, the press should not be all over Vettel. They were not all over Mark for disobeying orders in Silverstone, so they are not being fair.


The thing you're missing is that Mark's been very careful to NOT take his anger out on Seb. Mark's anger has been squarely directed at the man pulling the strings for Vettel - Helmut Marko. If Vettel's caught in the crossfire there, it's only because Mark cant directly come out against Marko and start a war.

It's kinda hard to direct anger at Marko without it having blowback on Vettel, given Vettel seems quite happy to have Marko pulling the strings for him behind closed doors. Perhaps if Seb stood up like a man and told Marko that he didn't need the manipulative puppetry in the background, and that he could stand on his own two feet?

As for the media not being all over Mark after Silverstone, I direct your attention back to Canada 2010. There's rationale to Mark's actions at Silverstone, given he'd meekly held station which helped Seb several times, including during his 2010 title charge.


#1686 Sakae

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 04:36

This article suggests it's a multi map setting:

QUOTE
Both Vettel and Webber were told to switch the multi map to setting 21 “multi 21″. The multi-map is a pre-programmable, driver selectable feature of the MES std ECU, on the RB9 the adjustment is on the right hand side of the steering wheel (below – on setting 4)

http://www.racecar-e...ian-grand-prix/

Is it confirmed if Vettel has actually complied with map-related part of the instruction, since we know he hasn't with the second one? I cannot recall anyone talking about it in any other terms but that Webber did.

#1687 alx346

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:58

I read your take and respect your opinion, although I don't agree.

You state that in Brazil, Mark "made it clear to Seb that he was still around by not completely rolling over for Seb at the race start" - by nearly running him off track - which caused Seb to lose several positions in order to avoid a crash and which left him a prime target for the midfield benders - and allowing the Ferrari cars through. Later he sandwiched his teamate between himself and Kobayashi in a mean threesome on a fast corner. Then Mark proceded to let Alonso by during the race with barely a by your leave. Why shouldn't Seb have been mad as a hatter after Brazil?

I don't care about Canada where Mark was clearly mad at the team. If he's mad at the team, then take it out on the team, not on Seb. Seb is not Mark's personal whipping post for him to direct his anger at for what he sees as the team's misbehavior. In Silverstone, he raced fairly against Seb, so he did properly direct his anger (if any) toward the team - but Brazil was at best against both and at worst, a personal vendetta against Seb.

You ask if Mark shouldn't be bloody annoyed. Well perhaps, at the team for Canada and Silverstone - but he can (or should) only feel shame for his behavior in Brazil. His acts in Brazil should easily soothe any annoyance he feels after Malaysia.

Your question regarding the press - in short - no, the press should not be all over Vettel. They were not all over Mark for disobeying orders in Silverstone, so they are not being fair.


The ferrari's didnt need any help, they got better starts anyway..

Mark did help Seb in the race, although my memory is not the best, but he did let him through yes?
And at the restart, Mark pulled off track to avoid any contact... And I doubt he was racing Seb there in the first place, if he was then why let him through earlier in the race?
I think Brazil is blown way out of proportion

Cant wait to see what happens in China if they are close together..


#1688 Black Widow

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 09:01

No. Vettel told the media that he was asked to hold station behind Mark. When asked if he was upset by it, he explained that there were times the driver had to do what was best for the team.

Malaysia 13, obviously, was not one of those times. :p

Bourbon

Probably one of your better posts. In my opinion (notice I say that not to invoke the wrath of the moderator gods :rotfl: ) total bullshit but still have to give major points for the last line. :lol:



#1689 Sin

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 14:38

something I read in an old interview now, which I thought was intresting considering the recent discussion... was an interview with Glock, Hülkenberg & Sutil in 2010 I think about who they think would be WDC... and they mention the relationship of Webber & Vettel

http://www.autobild....ch-1217615.html

Wer wird Weltmeister?
Glock: Vettel.
Sutil: Hamilton.
Hülkenberg: Hamilton.

Herr Sutil, warum glauben Sie an Hamilton?
Glock: Weil’s sein Busenfreund ist!
Sutil: Genau, deshalb kann ich ihn ja auch so gut einschätzen. Wir sind ein Jahr zusammen gefahren und er ist für mich der stärkste Fahrer. Er hat zwar nicht das stärkste Auto, die Red Bull hätten jetzt schon Weltmeister sein müssen. Aber Vettels Team schöpft sein Potential nicht aus. McLaren macht das sehr viel cleverer. Die haben zwei super Fahrer, die alles richtig machen und nicht gegeneinander arbeiten, wie Vettel und Webber. Fahrerisch passt es bei Sebastian schon, aber sein Team macht zu viele Fehler – auf und neben der Strecke.
Glock: Ich bleibe trotzdem bei Vettel, weil er über das Jahr hinweg das bessere Auto haben wird. Und Webber ist für mich kein Überflieger, schnell, aber kein Supertalent.
Hülkenberg: Halt! Fahrer können sich ja auch entwickeln! Wenn Webbers Ruf vor ein paar Jahren noch nicht der beste war, kann das jetzt anders sein. Früher bei Ferrari hat Michael meinem jetzigen Teamkollegen Rubens Barrichello regelmäßig ein paar Zehntel aufgebrummt. Ich glaube nicht, dass Michael noch einmal so viel schneller wäre, wenn er jetzt in meinem Williams sitzen würde.


Who will be world champion?
Glock: Vettel.
Sutil: Hamilton.
Hülkenberg: Hamilton.

Mr Sutil, why do you believe it will be Hamilton?
Glock: Cause he's his bosom buddy!
Sutil: Exactly, cause of that I can judge him so well. We drove together for one year and he is the strongest driver for me. He does not have the strongest car, the Red Bulls should have been world champions now already. But Vettels team doesn't use their potential. McLaren do that much much smarter. They got two great drivers that do everything right and are not working against each other like Vettel and Webber. On the driver side everything is fine with Sebastian, but his team does make many mistakes on the track and besides of it.
Glock: I'll stay with Vettel anyway, cause over the year he will have the better car. And Webber is no high fligher for me, quick but not a supertalent.
Hülkenberg: Halt! Drivers can develope! Even if Webbers reputation wasn't the best a few years ago, it can be different now. Back in the past at Ferrari Michael regulary drove a few tenths quicker than my present teammate Rubens Barrichello. I don't think Michael would be still so much quicker, if he would be in the Williams now.


Of course that was before Red Bulls World Championships, I still thought it was quite intresting to see things were never all right there

Edited by Sin, 09 April 2013 - 14:39.


#1690 Sakae

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 15:08

something I read in an old interview now, which I thought was intresting considering the recent discussion... was an interview with Glock, Hülkenberg & Sutil in 2010 I think about who they think would be WDC... and they mention the relationship of Webber & Vettel

http://www.autobild....ch-1217615.html


Who will be world champion?
Glock: Vettel.
Sutil: Hamilton.
Hülkenberg: Hamilton.

Mr Sutil, why do you believe it will be Hamilton?
Glock: Cause he's his bosom buddy!
Sutil: Exactly, cause of that I can judge him so well. We drove together for one year and he is the strongest driver for me. He does not have the strongest car, the Red Bulls should have been world champions now already. But Vettels team doesn't use their potential. McLaren do that much much smarter. They got two great drivers that do everything right and are not working against each other like Vettel and Webber. On the driver side everything is fine with Sebastian, but his team does make many mistakes on the track and besides of it.
Glock: I'll stay with Vettel anyway, cause over the year he will have the better car. And Webber is no high fligher for me, quick but not a supertalent.
Hülkenberg: Halt! Drivers can develope! Even if Webbers reputation wasn't the best a few years ago, it can be different now. Back in the past at Ferrari Michael regulary drove a few tenths quicker than my present teammate Rubens Barrichello. I don't think Michael would be still so much quicker, if he would be in the Williams now.


Of course that was before Red Bulls World Championships, I still thought it was quite intresting to see things were never all right there

This is not first time Hülkenberg adopted a position hostile (or read unfriendly) to Vettel. Could be coincidence, but I am yet to read anything positive from him. It would be really rough patch at RB should he replace Webber.

Edited by Sakae, 09 April 2013 - 15:13.


#1691 Sin

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 15:11

I don't see Hülkenberg being hostile towards Vettel, just neutral towards him and Mark... I however indeed think they aren't best buddies...

#1692 goingthedistance

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 15:14

Actually in the past I would say that Nico has been the most pro-Vettel of the other German drivers (Schumi being the exception). Sutil and Rosberg are both rumoured to dislike him. Glock I don't know.

#1693 Sin

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 15:18

Actually in the past I would say that Nico has been the most pro-Vettel of the other German drivers (Schumi being the exception). Sutil and Rosberg are both rumoured to dislike him. Glock I don't know.


o.O no Glock, Schumi and Vettel have been the best buddies o.O... Glock and Vettel even come from the same tiny area of germany... they always been talking at drivers parade too and made pictures together...

Hülkenberg I never seen alot hanging out with Vettel... Sutil don't know... and Rosberg don't know either... other german drivers... don't know how he got along with Heidfeld & I seen a photo of Vettel with Frentzen, but that doesn't say much...

besides of the German drivers Vettel seems to be getting along well with finns :p & Massa & Button and him seem to get along quite well too thats how it seems to me at least

Edited by Sin, 09 April 2013 - 15:21.


#1694 goingthedistance

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 15:24

Okay I wasn't sure about Glock as I've never seen much comment about Vettel from him. I know Glock and Webber are friends.

Rosberg and Sutil both said fairly negative things about Vettel in the press in 2010 (Sutil: "he acts like a superstar" or something like that).

#1695 Sin

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 15:27

Glock commented on Malaysia 2013 too

I translated the stuff for you since the google translate thing doesnt work great:


Timo Glock:

«Ich kenne ihn ein wenig als Typ. Er ist da, um zu gewinnen»

"I know him a little bit as a guy [meaning his personality]. He is there to win"

« Ich habe in der Formel 1 gelernt, dass man in der Situation drin sein muss, um sich eine Meinung bilden zu können. Wenn man vor dem Fernseher sitzt, kriegt man viele Dinge nicht mit»

"I learned in Formula 1, that you have to be in the situation to make yourself an opinion. If you are sitting infront of the TV, you miss many things..." (for example cause 90% of team radio isn't broadcast)

«Teamorder hin oder her: Ich glaube, Red Bull war noch nie ein Team, das Wert darauf gelegt hat. Beide Fahrer haben sich nie daran gehalten.»

"Team Order or not: I think, Red Bull was never a team that placed value on them. Both drivers never followed them."

«Fakt ist: Sollte Sebastian die WM mit fünf Punkten Vorsprung gewinnen, hat er alles richtig gemacht. Er ist dreimaliger Weltmeister und hat das Team zu dem gemacht, was es heute ist. Wenn es schiefgegangen wäre, wäre die Kritik an ihm noch lauter gewesen»

"It's a fact: If Sebastian wins the WDC, with five points advance, than he did everything right. He is a three time WDC and made the Team what it is today. If it had gone wrong, the critic about him would have been much louder."

(asked if he would have done the same)
«Das habe ich nicht gesagt. Ich war noch nie in der Situation, Weltmeister sein zu können. Ich weiß nicht, ob man dann ein anderes Selbstbewusstsein hat.»

"I didn't say that. I never was in the situation to be able to be World Champion. I don't know if you have a different kind of self confidence then."

Mattias Ekström:

«Ich verstehe seine Position zu 100 Prozent. Als er letztes Jahr um die WM gekämpft hat, habe ich mich beim letzten Rennen in Brasilien tierisch aufgeregt, als Mark Webber das nicht besser im Griff gehabt hat»

"I understand his position 100 percent. As he was fighting last year for the World Championship. I was terrible upset, as Mark Webber didn't have himself better under control."


«Wie man in den Wald hineinruft, so schallt es heraus. Vettel ist jetzt der Böse, weil er die Teamorder ignoriert hat. Ich habe von Sebastian erwartet, dass er das so macht. Aber ich habe auch erwartet, dass er das auch so sagt.»

"As you shout into the forest, it echoes back out. Now Vettel is the bad one, cause he ignored the Team Order. I expected Sebastian to act that way, but I also expected that he will say it that way."

«Wenn dich einmal jemand verarscht hat, dann muss man sich nicht entschuldigen. Wir sind ja keine Kinder mehr. Es geht da um die Formel-1-Weltmeisterschaft»

"If someone once took the piss out of you, then you don't have to apologize. We after all are no kids anymore. It is about the formula 1 championship."

Jamie Green:

«Von der Teamseite her ist es klar. Ob nun Vettel oder Webber vorne ist, ist egal. Vettel denkt viel an die Statistiken. Wenn er Erster ist, fährt er in der letzten Runde oft noch die schnellste Runde. Das ist wichtig für ihn. Wenn man so viel gewonnen hat, drei Titel hintereinander, ist das Selbstbewusstsein zu groß. Er glaubt, er ist wichtiger als das Team»

"From the side of the team its all clear. If Vettel or Webber are in front doesn't matter. Vettel thinks much about statistics. If he is first, he oftentimes drives the fast lap in the last lap. That is important for him. If you won so much, three consecutive titles your self confidence is great. He thinks he is more important than the team..."

«Er will gewinnen. Das ist immer das Problem im Motorsport. Eigentlich ist es ein Teamsport, aber auch ein Einzelkämpfersport. Beides zusammen klappt nicht immer.»

"He wants to win. That is the Problem with motorsport. It is really a teamsport, but als a solo fighter sport. Both together does not always work out..."


and here something about Rosberg & Vettel from 2012

http://www.motorspor...t_12080704.html

in the end tho... relationships to other people can change quickly, best example are Sutil & Hamilton and in the other direction Massa & Alonso (I remember Massa saying **** you to Alonso once)

Edited by Sin, 09 April 2013 - 15:38.


#1696 goingthedistance

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 15:37

Thanks, interesting read. It's cool getting the German perspective on things.

#1697 Astro

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 16:16

Glock commented on Malaysia 2013 too



and here something about Rosberg & Vettel from 2012

http://www.motorspor...t_12080704.html

in the end tho... relationships to other people can change quickly, best example are Sutil & Hamilton and in the other direction Massa & Alonso (I remember Massa saying **** you to Alonso once)


Interesting read. Thanks for the translation :up:

#1698 Buttoneer

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 16:33

If the discussion about who was right is all done, please move on. If you want to discuss different opinions on different aspects of different drivers from different perspectives, then you need to start a new thread please.

#1699 Sakae

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 12:00

This story might end in China, as we read headlines - no more team orders for RB drivers.
I am not sure how long that will last, but I applaud the effort and decision rendered.

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#1700 chris1234560

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 15:38

http://www.youtube.c...;v=XprbW4oKzlg#!

"I don't apologise for winning"