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Webber vs Vettel - Malaysia 2013 - who was right?


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#101 jrg19

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:11

Nico should've been allowed to pass... But Vettel should've stayed behind? Err... Guess your avatar says it all really, biased.


Both drivers should have been allowed to pass the difference is that Webber was told that the race was run, yet Vettel passed.

No matter how you spin it Vettel comes out of this looking like an absolute wanker.

And avatar comments... irony of the highest order.

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#102 Disgrace

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:14

Agreed, except for the last part. But it seems that's ultimately whats happening. I think what Lewis said on the podium was genuine. I think what Vettel is saying now is spin from their PR department because RB are in the spotlight over this. Which IMHO, makes Vettel look a bit worse. He should just say f**k it, I did it. I also won the last 3 WDC's. Which is possibly what has happened but is trying to play nice to a certain extent.


If it was genuine, he would have pulled over. Words are meaningless when the points are on the board. Maybe he feels more sorry now, but he knows that he will not care if it wins him the title.

What Vettel is saying is not spin, it's downright lying to keep the PR machine oiled, but again the words mean nothing in terms of the championship.

Edited by Disgrace, 24 March 2013 - 11:15.


#103 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:14

So let me get this straight. You think RBR should FIRE or BAN their Triple World Champion? Lol, come one dude, that is never going to happen. They wouldn't do that to Mark or even an STRF driver. They get mad and say they will speak to the driver, but that's all we ever see.

If that is not what you mean, exactly what do you mean by "protection" because at the moment, not one single, solitary soul at RBR, including Dr. Marko, have had any defense for Seb, nor have they had a single word of praise for his race effort.

Seb apologized. He was wrong not to follow Team orders. Mark was wrong in Silverstone 11 too and even more so in Brazil 12. But guess what, it is racing and likely that Mark and Seb will do it again.


No I'm not saying he should be fired. Heck no. Only saying that's what happens when regular people do it. Do you not agree that Rosberg would have been severely reprimanded had he passed Lewis? What about Mark if he would have passed Seb in Silverstone? He would've been fired.

I agree that to the media they said what he did, but Horner also tried to shift blame. When Johnny said something about the whole "protection" deal, Horner said he didn't know what Mark was referring to. Johnny then immediately said "we know what he's talking about don't we".. I think that speaks for itself.

I'm not here to dog Seb out, only give my opinion on what happened. But when people are making up bullshit excuses for his actions, or criticizing another team for team orders yet have no problem with Seb asking for them, I'm compelled to speak.

#104 Sin

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:14

Both drivers should have been allowed to pass the difference is that Webber was told that the race was run, yet Vettel passed.

No matter how you spin it Vettel comes out of this looking like an absolute wanker.

And avatar comments... irony of the highest order.



They both were told to stop racing but people critisizing Vettel for ignoring team orders, while damning team orders and cheering if other people ignore them are hypocrites

#105 Tarzaan

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:15

Seb was right. He was fastest. And he has no reason to take any gift to Wbber after the 2012 brazil sace start. He alwasy fall the WDC because of Webbos start...

#106 rasul

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:16

No it's not. I'm a Vettel fan and like the guy but if you get a team order to keep position you can't just disregard it. That's simply wrong.


Why is it wrong? Do we watch F1 for its team orders or do we watch it for good racing? What Vettel did was racing. What Webber did was sulking because he didn't win thanks to team orders. If anything, Vettel should be the one demanding explanations from his team. It's the 2nd race of the season, for god's sake. It's too early for team orders. If drivers aren't allowed to race now, when would they be allowed? That's why I'm pissed off at Merc and feel sorry for Rosberg, despite being Ham's fan.

#107 Wheels23

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:16

Vettel should have followed it and Nico should have but did. You just have to follow team orders regardless of how annoying it. Vettel is at fault but it wasn't that bad.

If they collided...then it would have been bad.

#108 icecream

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:16

if it was 100% fair fighting, then, as a spectator, i've got no real problem with this. was the best wheel to wheel of the race, and i think they both played their cards well.

however, if vettel was allowed to pit first because it was already agreed they'd finish in procession, then it's not really a fair fight. i dont think engine modes come into it, as the driver will just turn them back up (right?).

as a webber fan, of course would have rathered Webber crossed the line first.

#109 sv401

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:17

Schumacher was the ultimate team player... yes as number 1 driver that meant a lot of things going his way, but he understood and respected immensely the work his teammates did. Check Malaysia 1999 as the ultimate example... over a second faster than Irvine but gave him the win to help his teammate's title bid


While being out of title contention himself because of being injured earlier. Today was a completely different situation, with two drivers having about equal points fighting for the lead (and possibly eventual #1 status when the team-mate drops out of contention) early in the season. It decided about 14 points, which could very well make an important difference later.

#110 GiancarloF1

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:17

Vettel :up: :up: :up: great move, not giving respect for TOs, just like Mark Webber didn't give respect for them in Britain 2011. Webber is a hypocrite, just like all the Vettel haters on this board. In a swapped case everybody would praise Webber, and shit into Vettel for being a pussy.

Vettel :up: :up: :up: great win, enjoy it dude.

#111 gillesthegenius

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:18

Mark ignored his bosses plenty of times. Silverstone being one you choose to misinterpret.
Seb was wrong but Mark isn't a innocent victim in the team.


This. :up:

#112 Cenotaph

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:19

webber should just do the same the next time simple


As simple as that, and since they've been teammates, Webber has showed that this is his approach to racing with his teammate.. and got applauded for it. So what exactly is the issue here? The 3xWDC won instead of the underdog?

#113 toroRosso

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:21

Why is it wrong? Do we watch F1 for its team orders or do we watch it for good racing? What Vettel did was racing. What Webber did was sulking because he didn't win thanks to team orders. If anything, Vettel should be the one demanding explanations from his team. It's the 2nd race of the season, for god's sake. It's too early for team orders. If drivers aren't allowed to race now, when would they be allowed? That's why I'm pissed off at Merc and feel sorry for Rosberg, despite being Ham's fan.


I just feel like Sebastian is getting way too much heat from the team right now. I feel like it's more about social politics inside the team. Hamilton was declined so Mark has definetly infiltrated the minds of that team.

#114 gillesthegenius

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:21

They both were told to stop racing but people critisizing Vettel for ignoring team orders, while damning team orders and cheering if other people ignore them are hypocrites


And this. :up:

#115 Massa_f1

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:22

Vettel :up: :up: :up: great move, not giving respect for TOs, just like Mark Webber didn't give respect for them in Britain 2011. Webber is a hypocrite, just like all the Vettel haters on this board. In a swapped case everybody would praise Webber, and shit into Vettel for being a pussy.

Vettel :up: :up: :up: great win, enjoy it dude.


:up: Well said. I could not agree more

#116 DrProzac

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:24

It would be OK for me if Vettel said out loud to the team that he will attack Webber's lead and shown himself in his mirrors in a clear way a few turns before. This way Webber would have known what the situation is. In such situation I would only be happy because for me TO aren't a good thing and it was good racing for the lead.

Unless due to TO (favorable for Webber) the strategy was altered in a way which have given Vettel an edge or Webber an disadvantage (which wouldn't be important when TO are in effect).

Actually it can't be viewed as fair, because Webber surely slowed down allowing Vettel to catch him easier.

Edited by DrProzac, 24 March 2013 - 11:30.


#117 carbonfibre

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:24

Surprised we haven't got a thread about Mark Webber nearly pushing his teammate into the wall.

I can remember a certain situation 2 years ago in which a certain mr schumacher got jumped on by almost the entire forum for doing exactly the same thing...

#118 sv401

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:24

It won't happen, but RBR should suspend Vettel for a race.


I am sure Ferrari and Alonso would be very happy about that. It would be a repeat of 2007, and Alonso could have much better chance to become a 3 times WDC, since he has shown the ability to beat Webber even with a worse car more than once.

#119 ElDictatore

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:25

Fangio
Hill (Graham and Damon)
Clark
Stewart
Prost
Schumacher
Button
Hamilton
Raikkonen
Häkkinen

All team players and won titles.


Fixed

Edited by ElDictatore, 24 March 2013 - 11:26.


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#120 race addicted

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:25


What an as* Vettel is, first not doing as told - turning up the wick and going past, and then afterwards saying he didn't do it deliberately!! What??
And his engineer; "you wanted it more" - ding-ding, award for the stupidest comment ever.

#121 Sakae

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:25

Vettel owns to Webber absolutely nothing; if there is a debt issue, it's in Webber's column from the past (in my count at least three events). Webber's brigade is out in full force, and its just hilarious to read through those hysterical cries.

#122 DrProzac

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:25

I just feel like Sebastian is getting way too much heat from the team right now. I feel like it's more about social politics inside the team. Hamilton was declined so Mark has definetly infiltrated the minds of that team.

If anything, Lewis was declined because the team didn't want to have two (a bit hot headed) top tier drivers. We all are able to imagine how a Lewis & Sebastian in RBR could end.

Edited by DrProzac, 24 March 2013 - 11:27.


#123 sv401

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:27

It would be OK for me if Vettel said out loud to the team that he will attack Webber's lead and shown himself in his mirrors in a clear way a few turns before.


The fight took much longer than just a few corners, so it is not like Webber did not have time to find out what is going on.

#124 Wingcommander

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:29

This is a thread waiting to be locked.

Edited by Wingcommander, 24 March 2013 - 11:29.


#125 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:29

Vettel :up: :up: :up: great move, not giving respect for TOs, just like Mark Webber didn't give respect for them in Britain 2011. Webber is a hypocrite, just like all the Vettel haters on this board. In a swapped case everybody would praise Webber, and shit into Vettel for being a pussy.

Vettel :up: :up: :up: great win, enjoy it dude.

Wow. Never thought I would agree with you on anything. But this one I do. 100%.

Vettel was right every single day of the week in what he did. We have all seen how handy 7 points can be in 2010 and 2012. And Webber will not be there fighting for the WDC anyway.

Everyone hates teamorders. And when Vettel says, "Screw it, I'm racing!" which is what we fans like to see, then he gets flak? Go figure. Big KUDOS to him for giving us some action and actual racing.
Or would you have rather seen a procession across the line like the Mercs? I think not. Not so good for inter-team relations perhaps, but great for the fans. This is why he is a 3-time champ.

#126 DILLIGAF

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:30

Let me get this straight...
Vettel is a prick at Silvo 2011 and he is a prick now too???

What type of goggles do some people wear? Pathetic.


Difference being at Silverstone Webber knew he had the faster car & duely let Seb know it by showing him a wing. BUT he did not go for the pass. He held station in accordance with the teams agreement. You're comparing apples to oranges mate.

Edited by DILLIGAF, 24 March 2013 - 11:31.


#127 Skinnyguy

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:30

Vettel was on the right.

He survived to yet another stupid late move from Webber. This guy always does the same, fails to cover the inside and then when someone is moving to pass him there he chops. If he wants the inside he can have it, but he must cover properly first time around.

And about engine modes, sorry, but if Webber didn´t make a good enough job on fuel, and Vettel did, why should Vettel back off? It´s the same story than with Mercedes guys, but these two luckily ignored the politics and went racing. Shame Webber got dirty covering again.

#128 choyothe

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:31

See the deflection here I mentioned in my post? Let's talk about today. Let's talk about the failure to do what the boss said. Let's talk about the request for team orders requested before the race was half way through. The same team orders you have a problem with Mercedes giving, yet it's ok for your driver to ask for them?
Dude I think I'm pretty damn objective, I just don't get why you can't recognize what took place today.


At that point the RB's had blown it (already) for him, Mercs were coming right up to him and Mark was clearly slower, definitely I understand him urging the team to get something changed bc at that point podium was not looking that sure. This should've been a comfortable 1-2 for RB but they made it very difficult with the extremely poor strategy.


Vettel :up: :up: :up: great move, not giving respect for TOs, just like Mark Webber didn't give respect for them in Britain 2011. Webber is a hypocrite, just like all the Vettel haters on this board. In a swapped case everybody would praise Webber, and shit into Vettel for being a pussy.

Vettel :up: :up: :up: great win, enjoy it dude.


:up: I personally feel also this is one of his best wins, with everything thrown at him by his team.


#129 DILLIGAF

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:32

Vettel owns to Webber absolutely nothing; if there is a debt issue, it's in Webber's column from the past (in my count at least three events). Webber's brigade is out in full force, and its just hilarious to read through those hysterical cries.


Which three events?

Edited by DILLIGAF, 24 March 2013 - 11:32.


#130 choyothe

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:32

Difference being at Silverstone Webber knew he had the faster car & duely let Seb know it by showing him a wing. BUT he did not go for the pass. He held station in accordance with the teams agreement. You're comparing apples to oranges mate.


Why are people spouting this when it's obviously not true. Re-watch the race if you need.

#131 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:35

Webber looks like a broken man.


That's what i'm worried about. So were Martin, Damon, and Johnny H. :|

#132 Tarzaan

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:35

Look who's crying:


Mark Webber says he ignored team orders in British Grand Prix battle

By Jonathan Noble and Matt Beer Sunday, July 10th 2011, 14:33 GMT


The Australian said he had received "probably four or five" messages from the team asking him not to attack Vettel, but declined to follow them.

Asked how he felt about the team orders, Webber replied: "I am not fine with it, no. That is the answer to that.

"If Fernando [Alonso] retires on the last lap, we are fighting for the win.

"Of course I ignored the team because I wanted to try and get a place. Seb was doing his best, I was doing my best. I wasn't going to crash with anyone.

"I try to do my best with the amount of one way conversation I was having - I was trying to do my best to pass the guy in front."


http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/93001

#133 BenettonB192

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:36

Say what you want but this drama is good for F1. At least gives people something to talk about.

Vettel showed he's carved from the same wood as a Senna or Schumacher. That's polarizing people which is fine.

The outrage as expected is over the top. I would understand if Webber was known as a super loyal team player but what exactly did he do in the past to deserve more respect from Seb? He disobeyed orders himself, he fought his team mate hard when he was in a championship battle against another teams driver. They both have to sit down and talk about their behaviour.

#134 sv401

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:37

Vettel owns to Webber absolutely nothing; if there is a debt issue, it's in Webber's column from the past (in my count at least three events). Webber's brigade is out in full force, and its just hilarious to read through those hysterical cries.


Most people are just bitter, because they know (even if they will never admit it) that Vettel ultimately did the right thing, and the only mistake was to apologize, which is useless and only shows weakness. Alonso for example would never have apologized in a similar situation. Vettel has shown to be the better Red Bull driver overall for 4 seasons, and him winning the race is likely better for the team's WDC chances, barring some unusual things happening. Would it be very surprising if in the end Vettel won the WDC by a only handful of points ahead of Alonso, with Webber being at least 20 points behind ? Of course, those who post all the hate here are mostly from the "anyone but Red Bull/Vettel" brigade, so they are understandably upset about what is in the end the best possible result for RBR.

#135 caso

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:39

Webber was in the right, no question about this.

But I enjoyed the racing that followed. :up:

Edited by caso, 24 March 2013 - 11:39.


#136 Iron Maiden

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:39

Problem now for Red Bull/Vettel is that Webber may just ignore team orders when Vettel needs them, at a far more pivotal point in the championship. I dont think anyone could really criticize him for it either.

It is inevitable that the positions will be reversed at some point.

#137 SpartanChas

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:39

Red Bull have given Seb what he needs to win three championships now and he can't even respect their instructions.

I'd at least have a bit of respect left if he was honest, but to lie about it?



#138 exogenesis1203

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:40

At that point the RB's had blown it (already) for him, Mercs were coming right up to him and Mark was clearly slower, definitely I understand him urging the team to get something changed bc at that point podium was not looking that sure. This should've been a comfortable 1-2 for RB but they made it very difficult with the extremely poor strategy.




:up: I personally feel also this is one of his best wins, with everything thrown at him by his team.


Besides, if we are talking about "fair"
It's RB's strategy that let Webber to be put in front in the first place. It's not like Webber outraced Vettel at the start and gain the lead on merit.

#139 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:40

He disobeyed orders himself, he fought his team mate hard when he was in a championship battle against another teams driver. They both have to sit down and talk about their behaviour.

Webber had the right to the better final stop and undercut. But the team allowed Vettel this?

They put Webber 0.01s ahead instead of 3s instead.

This is the root of the problem. Vettel should not have been put in a place, to exercise his racing desries. Webber had a reasonable lead!!! And would KEEP a reasonable lead, if Webber was given the proper final pit stop...


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#140 ThomFi

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:41

You get it quite terribly wrong. In Silverstone 2011 Mark himself said he ignored the teamorders and raced his teammate. In Malaysia 2013 Seb ignored teamorders and raced his teammate. I always said team orders like 'mantain the gap' are perfectly understandable in the last laps of a race. Mark should have backed off then and Seb should have backed off today. The team will have some words with the drivers.

Still not far as bad as what Ferrari did in 2010...


This.
"I am not fine with it. No. That's the answer to that," the Australian said when asked if he understood the team's decision.
"If Fernando retires on the last lap we are battling for the victory so I was fine until the end. Of course I ignored the team as I want to try and get another place. Seb was doing his best and I was doing my best.
"I don't want to crash with anyone, but that was it. I tried to do my best with the amount of conversation I had. One-way conversation obviously as I wasn't talking too much back.
"There was a lot of traffic coming to me, but I was still trying to do my best to pass the guy in front."

And I remember, how he was hailed as a hero and the team was slammed for their sleazy tactics.

Edited by ThomFi, 24 March 2013 - 11:41.


#141 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:41

He disobeyed orders himself, he fought his team mate hard when he was in a championship battle against another teams driver. They both have to sit down and talk about their behaviour.

Webber had the right to the better final stop and undercut. But the team allowed Vettel this?

They put Webber 0.01s ahead instead of 3s instead.

This is the root of the problem. Vettel should not have been put in a place, to exercise his racing desries. Webber had a reasonable lead!!! And would KEEP a reasonable lead, if Webber was given the proper final pit stop...

I would have no problem if Webber stopped first, was still 3 seconds ahead and Vettel was genuinely faster over the last laps with both drivers told on the radio they would be racing to the end. I would have no problem at all with that. But Webber's lead was taken away by bad stratgey giving him little chance to hold his gap!

#142 mattferg

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:42

Both drivers should have been allowed to pass the difference is that Webber was told that the race was run, yet Vettel passed.

No matter how you spin it Vettel comes out of this looking like an absolute wanker.

And avatar comments... irony of the highest order.


My avatar's mark's RB4, Google please. Horner did the wrong thing today not Vettel.

#143 Sin

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:42

Say what you want but this drama is good for F1. At least gives people something to talk about.

Vettel showed he's carved from the same wood as a Senna or Schumacher. That's polarizing people which is fine.

The outrage as expected is over the top. I would understand if Webber was known as a super loyal team player but what exactly did he do in the past to deserve more respect from Seb? He disobeyed orders himself, he fought his team mate hard when he was in a championship battle against another teams driver. They both have to sit down and talk about their behaviour.



I don't know if it is good.... debating if I should skip China... or at least this board for a few days, since I feel Seb is getting treated unfairly... wouldnt be the same if things were the other way round and Webber would have taken the lead

#144 H2H

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:42

Wow. Never thought I would agree with you on anything. But this one I do. 100%.

Vettel was right every single day of the week in what he did. We have all seen how handy 7 points can be in 2010 and 2012. And Webber will not be there fighting for the WDC anyway.

Everyone hates teamorders. And when Vettel says, "Screw it, I'm racing!" which is what we fans like to see, then he gets flak? Go figure. Big KUDOS to him for giving us some action and actual racing.
Or would you have rather seen a procession across the line like the Mercs? I think not. Not so good for inter-team relations perhaps, but great for the fans. This is why he is a 3-time champ.


Seb should have followed the team orders like he did in Turkey 2009 and Mark should have done so in Silverstone 2011.

Idiotic haters will hate idiotically be it which driver or team. Some have suffered long under the rule of RBR and Vettel and it shows. The stupidity of some posts is breathtaking and Mark was hailed as a hero for ignoring the team orders in Silverstone and is now hailed as a hero for attacking another driver for not following teamorders. Ignorance is a bliss, stupidity a curse. :lol:

Edited by H2H, 24 March 2013 - 11:45.


#145 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:43

Besides, if we are talking about "fair"
It's RB's strategy that let Webber to be put in front in the first place. It's not like Webber outraced Vettel at the start and gain the lead on merit.

It was semi-wet... who knew what was the better strategy

Vettel pitted for slicks first, normally this is better. In this case it wasn't, but team gave the strategy which would normally be better to the driver who was ahead at the start, which Vettel. This is correct.

The same should have been at the last stop. The better strategy for the leading drivier....

#146 Diablobb81

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:44

OTOH after Brazil last year mark shouldn't even be in the team. :p

#147 Dalton007

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:44

+1 :up:
This is the guy who squeezed his teammate into turn 1 in the championship deciding race last year, while allowing his team's rival to pass him unscathed on the outside.

What goes around comes around.

But nothing will come out of this from RBR side. They will protect Sebastian as usual and Hamilton and Alonso's fans will hate him more when he secured his 4th straight WDC titles.


Yep, what goes around comes around. Vettel did the right thing for the WDC. :up:

#148 fabr68

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:45

If there was a gentlemen agreement between Vettel and Webber to hold station on the last few laps of the race (like Webber has complied in dozen of races) then the team is at fault.

The gloves are off now. It will be amusing to see next race when Webber is on fresh tires behind a Vettel leading the race on crumbling tires.

#149 exogenesis1203

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:46

I don't know if it is good.... debating if I should skip China... or at least this board for a few days, since I feel Seb is getting treated unfairly... wouldnt be the same if things were the other way round and Webber would have taken the lead

Seb has always been treated like this on this board. One kinda just get used to it.

#150 Jakob

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:46

As a Vettel hater, I applaud what he did today. You just don't give up 7 points when championships are being fought until the last race these seasons. However, I hate the hypocrisy of his after the fact excuses. Just man it up, dude. Webber did in Silverstone, he got heat for it and nothing else happened.

I can't stand those pussy racers and all that political correctness. Just when your engineer tells you to slow down on the radio answer, "Sorry, disagree, I'm going for it" and take whatever comes from it like a man or shut it and put up with team orders if you are afraid of consequences.

This said, I'm not against TO. They have a place, specially to keep all those primadonnas in check when they can damage the team insterests, but they are all grown ups and know when they make sense and when they don't. It's race 2 of the season and Mark is still a rival. I wouldn't applaud it if Seb was out of the race for the championship and Mark was in the fight, but right now? Let them race, for god's sake.

Edited by Jakob, 24 March 2013 - 11:48.