443 replies to this topic

[e34]

seriously what do you guys want Vettel to do? Go onto his knees and kiss Webbers feet? (and I don't mean that symbolic atm)

First of all, shut up (I mean, Vettel, not you, of course).

He has to stop with all this childish "I wish I could go back in time", "I will compensate", "I didn't do it on purpose"... He had ten laps to give back the position, we have seen him celebrating and we have seen how he was worried not for his acts, but for the reaction of the team.

Now, he will have to live with the fact that he is not Mr. Nice Guy any more. There is no "Get out of jail" card that will erase instantly this stain. He has to live with it. Then, it will be up to him to learn from this, and, I he wants, to try to be a good teammate again. But he will have to make a sustained effort. It is not a question of giving back one place "a la Schumacher", when he sees it fit.

What is done, is done. Want to be a good teammate? Be one. But don't put forward silly excuses or promises, in the hope that people forget what you have done, because it does not work like that.

[Sin]

First of all, shut up (I mean, Vettel, not you, of course).

He has to stop with all this childish "I wish I could go back in time", "I will compensate", "I didn't do it on purpose"... He had ten laps to give back the position, we have seen him celebrating and we have seen how he was worried not for his acts, but for the reaction of the team.

Now, he will have to live with the fact that he is not Mr. Nice Guy any more. There is no "Get out of jail" card that will erase instantly this stain. He has to live with it. Then, it will be up to him to learn from this, and, I he wants, to try to be a good teammate again. But he will have to make a sustained effort. It is not a question of giving back one place "a la Schumacher", when he sees it fit.

What is done, is done. Want to be a good teammate? Be one. But don't put forward silly excuses or promises, in the hope that people forget what you have done, because it does not work like that.

like I wrote before I think Vettel wasn't aware that what he had done, would have been so terribly wrong, he probably remembered Silverstone and Brazil where Webber had done the same.... it first dawned to him that he disappointed everyone when he talked to Newey and I guess at that point he genuinly felt sorry... and I guess that is what he meant with his not deliberately doing it.... he didn't deliberately upset his team, he thought it would be fine... like it was the times where Webber did the same to him...

and I think it is good he says what he thinks and feels

[mymemoryfails]

I have explained to you twice now why in my book he isn't.
How about you accept that not everyone shares your hypocritical double standards.

I must have missed it. All I've heard from you how Webber is a hypocrite. I can see that.

But Iif I take your definition of Hypocrite : somebody who acts differently to their stated beliefs then surely Seb qualifies for this 24.3.13?

Pre-race "Yeah it's a deal" " during race "**** the deal" post race "I'm the winner" then Oh "I ****ed up" "I'm so sorry" "I'll make it up"

How do you describe Seb and his words and actions? That's my question.

mymemoryfails

[mymemoryfails]

like I wrote before I think Vettel wasn't aware that what he had done, would have been so terribly wrong, he probably remembered Silverstone and Brazil where Webber had done the same.... it first dawned to him that he disappointed everyone when he talked to Newey and I guess at that point he genuinly felt sorry... and I guess that is what he meant with his not deliberately doing it.... he didn't deliberately upset his team, he thought it would be fine... like it was the times where Webber did the same to him...

and I think it is good he says what he thinks and feels

Not that it matters, but I think he knew all along. When Rocky said " You obviously wanted it ....but you've got some explaining to do " Did you notice we didn't get the usual "YesYES Yes" stuff.

I think he tried to "bluff" Newey, but it didn't really hit him until Webber called him out in the pre-podium room. At that point I think he got it clearly.

cheers
mymemoryfails

[Sakae]

Vettel said that he wants a meeting with Weber (outside of cameras view, face to face). I think it's a mistake, because it will reinforce Webber's conviction, that he hasn't done anything wrong (in similar situations, yet there was no talk about him apologizing to Vettel).

Edited by Sakae, 25 March 2013 - 12:01.

[Sin]

Not that it matters, but I think he knew all along. When Rocky said " You obviously wanted it ....but you've got some explaining to do " Did you notice we didn't get the usual "YesYES Yes" stuff.

I think he tried to "bluff" Newey, but it didn't really hit him until Webber called him out in the pre-podium room. At that point I think he got it clearly.

cheers
mymemoryfails

that's your opinion... I saw it different and I'm also talking about bodylanguage here... Seb is a racing driver not an actor x.x... he sucks when he actually tries to act



proof

he is genuine.... I think he was just grumpy to have gotten a team order like that at all over the whole race, but I think he didn't think it was such a big deal... and he didnt realize that he disappointed everyone till he met Newey

[BCM]

He's won a Pyrrhic victory. Whilst Webber wasn't necessarily the most helpful of team mates (and which competitve ones are?), you can bet your bottom dollar he'll go out of his way to really make things difficult now. And given that he has the same car as Vettel that's potentially a massive problem.

[cutting42]

[Paul Prost]

Post-race comments after Silverstone 2011:
Vettel was left to fend off Webber, who closed right up to the German in the final couple of laps and made a couple of attempts to pass before being told by Horner: "Mark, you have to maintain the gap."
"I'm not fine with it, no," Webber said after the race. "[If] Fernando retires on the last lap, we're battling for victory.
"Of course I ignored the team and I was battling to the end. I was trying to do my best with the amount of conversation on the radio."

[LiJu914]

, you can bet your bottom dollar he'll go out of his way to really make things difficult now. And given that he has the same car as Vettel that's potentially a massive problem.

I don´t see why much should change for Vettel. When has Mark ever helped him without hesitation?
Once he tried exactly the same thing, Vettel did yesterday - and didn´t even think he was wrong afterwards. He didn´t exactly help last year in Brazil at the start and according to the team even raced him for a certain period of time at the race, when he shouldn´t have - and that was a title decider.

The only thing, that could get worse for Vettel is, if Webber would start to actively sabotage Vettel´s races, if a certain situation would allow that.

Edited by LiJu914, 25 March 2013 - 12:19.

[DILLIGAF]

Vettel said that he wants a meeting with Weber (outside of cameras view, face to face). I think it's a mistake, because it will reinforce Webber's conviction, that he hasn't done anything wrong (in similar situations, yet there was no talk about him apologizing to Vettel).

May also be a mistake if Webber sits Seb on his arse.

[exogenesis1203]

I don´t see why much should change for Vettel. When has Mark ever helped him without hesitation?
Once he tried exactly the same thing, Vettel did yesterday - and didn´t even think he was wrong afterwards. He didn´t exactly help last year in Brazil at the start and according to the team even raced him for a certain period of time at the race, when he shouldn´t have - and that was a title decider.

The only thing, that could get worse for Vettel is, if Webber would start to actively sabotage Vettel´s races, if a certain situation would allow that.

If Webber does anything like intentionallly pushing Vettel off track, or even crash into him, he will be the bad guy/sore loser in the big picture. The team would probably instantly fire him if he does take Vettel out in a race.

[mnmracer]

I must have missed it. All I've heard from you how Webber is a hypocrite. I can see that.

But Iif I take your definition of Hypocrite : somebody who acts differently to their stated beliefs then surely Seb qualifies for this 24.3.13?

Pre-race "Yeah it's a deal" " during race "**** the deal" post race "I'm the winner" then Oh "I ****ed up" "I'm so sorry" "I'll make it up"

How do you describe Seb and his words and actions? That's my question.

mymemoryfails

As fantasy giberish by liars.
Do you actually have any source for this supposed deal? And Vettel agreeing to it?

[spacekid]

Sebs fake apology and claims that he 'didn't do it on purpose' are obviously an insult to the intelligence.

Overall I have no problem with team orders - the team spend the money building the car and the drivers are paid employees. F1 is a team sport and despite the focus being on the glory of the drivers title, I believe the teams should be entitled to instruct their drivers as they wish.

So, if Red Bull did issue a team order for Seb to hold station behind Mark I have no problems there.

I think that Sebs actions can best be described as 'ruthless'. I honestly have no problem there either - Seb wants to win. If he is a good enough driver that teams will tolerate this behaviour and the championship comes to the team in the end I think they will regard his wages as money well spent. Its up to the team if they view his behaviour as unnaceptable or not, and if he has made himself a liability.

Mark is a big boy and I hope he is able to respond to this by beating Seb cleanly on the track, as I do genuinly prefer Mark as a person, although I do not believe he is as 'good' as Seb overall as a GP driver.

The only thing Seb has done here that really bothers me is his fake excuse and apology - we aren't stupid.

[exogenesis1203]

Sebs fake apology and claims that he 'didn't do it on purpose' are obviously an insult to the intelligence.

Overall I have no problem with team orders - the team spend the money building the car and the drivers are paid employees. F1 is a team sport and despite the focus being on the glory of the drivers title, I believe the teams should be entitled to instruct their drivers as they wish.

So, if Red Bull did issue a team order for Seb to hold station behind Mark I have no problems there.

I think that Sebs actions can best be described as 'ruthless'. I honestly have no problem there either - Seb wants to win. If he is a good enough driver that teams will tolerate this behaviour and the championship comes to the team in the end I think they will regard his wages as money well spent. Its up to the team if they view his behaviour as unnaceptable or not, and if he has made himself a liability.

Mark is a big boy and I hope he is able to respond to this by beating Seb cleanly on the track, as I do genuinly prefer Mark as a person, although I do not believe he is as 'good' as Seb overall as a GP driver.

The only thing Seb has done here that really bothers me is his fake excuse and apology - we aren't stupid.

I've been wondering though, how much of that is RBR speaking through his mouth?

[Sin]

Sebs fake apology and claims that he 'didn't do it on purpose' are obviously an insult to the intelligence.

Overall I have no problem with team orders - the team spend the money building the car and the drivers are paid employees. F1 is a team sport and despite the focus being on the glory of the drivers title, I believe the teams should be entitled to instruct their drivers as they wish.

So, if Red Bull did issue a team order for Seb to hold station behind Mark I have no problems there.

I think that Sebs actions can best be described as 'ruthless'. I honestly have no problem there either - Seb wants to win. If he is a good enough driver that teams will tolerate this behaviour and the championship comes to the team in the end I think they will regard his wages as money well spent. Its up to the team if they view his behaviour as unnaceptable or not, and if he has made himself a liability.

Mark is a big boy and I hope he is able to respond to this by beating Seb cleanly on the track, as I do genuinly prefer Mark as a person, although I do not believe he is as 'good' as Seb overall as a GP driver.

The only thing Seb has done here that really bothers me is his fake excuse and apology - we aren't stupid.

quoting my above post to that

like I wrote before I think Vettel wasn't aware that what he had done, would have been so terribly wrong, he probably remembered Silverstone and Brazil where Webber had done the same.... it first dawned to him that he disappointed everyone when he talked to Newey and I guess at that point he genuinly felt sorry... and I guess that is what he meant with his not deliberately doing it.... he didn't deliberately upset his team, he thought it would be fine... like it was the times where Webber did the same to him...

and I think it is good he says what he thinks and feels

so yeah I dont think the apology was fake

[mymemoryfails]

that's your opinion... I saw it different and I'm also talking about bodylanguage here... Seb is a racing driver not an actor x.x... he sucks when he actually tries to act



proof

he is genuine.... I think he was just grumpy to have gotten a team order like that at all over the whole race, but I think he didn't think it was such a big deal... and he didnt realize that he disappointed everyone till he met Newey

Well I 'm not sure on body language, I don't think Newey intimidated / or phased him ....but Webber's glare and "Yeah Multi 21" took the wind right out of his sails.

Thanks for link
mymemoryfails

[gowebber]

Seb should be sanctioned for the next race. Thats about the only fair thing to do. Otherwise Horner is no team boss, just Seb's muppet. Seb is NOT bigger than the RBR team and needs to realise that. I'm not the only one who thinks this. They both might have disobeyed orders before but what Seb did yesterday was taking it to a whole other level and was disgraceful.

http://www.irishtime...ended-1.1337932?

[Sin]

Seb should be sanctioned for the next race. Thats about the only fair thing to do. Otherwise Horner is no team boss, just Seb's muppet. Seb is NOT bigger than the RBR team and needs to realise that. I'm not the only one who thinks this. They both might have disobeyed orders before but what Seb did yesterday was taking it to a whole other level and was disgraceful.

http://www.irishtime...ended-1.1337932?

Mark wasn't sanctioned anytime he ignored teamorders.. so if Horner punishes Seb for it he is a hypocrit

[v@sh]

quoting my above post to that



so yeah I dont think the apology was fake

The apology was fake, he knew what he was doing before the race. It was a PRE RACE strategy, something red bull have been doing for years. Sebs I didn't know what I was doing is a load of bullsh1t because he knew exactly what was doing - winning and maximising his points while Alonso was out to the detriment of the team and his reputation. If he had come out and said he wanted the win to build a gap so decided to go against team orders and just said to the team that he was gonna race Webber then that's fine so turn up the engine for Webber as well then that's fine.

But to win in an underhanded way and then lie afterwards with a hollow apology is just low. Fans can call him a ruthless racer like the greats but at least do it on an even footing. IMO his legacy is already tarnished, regardless of the records he may break in the future.

Edited by v@sh, 25 March 2013 - 12:40.

[Sin]

The apology was fake, he knew what he was doing before the race. It was a PRE RACE strategy, something red bull have been doing for years. Sebs I didn't know what I was doing is a load of bullsh1t because he knew exactly what was doing - winning and maximising his points while Alonso was out to the detriment of the team and his reputation. If he had come out and said he wanted the win to build a gap so decided to go against team orders and just said to the team that he was gonna race Webber then that's fine so turn up the engine for Webber as well then that's fine.

But to win in an underhanded way and then lie afterwards with a hollow apology is just low. Fans can call him a ruthless racer like the greats but at least do it on an even footing. IMO his legacy is already tarnished, regardless of the records he may break in the future.

exactly and still despite pre race strategy Silverstone and Brazil happened where Mark ignored the team, it was no big deal then, Seb probably thought it would not be a big deal now... as he noticed it was a big deal when talking to Newey and when he noticed he disappointed the team he felt genuinly sorry and apologized for not deliberately disappointing the team. He wasn't aware that it would be such a big deal cause it never has been before...

[LiJu914]

Coming back to the thread title.

Vettel made a mistake in apologizing to Mark and the public. I just doesn´t feel sincere, especially if you do that one second after you get out of the car. He should said on the podium/at the PC, what he probably felt during the race, which i think would be something like "I think the order to hold positions was premature, so i ignored it and decided to go for it. We still had a whole stint to race and i had good chances to win - and that´s the main goal for every racing driver. Mark has seen it that way also several times in the past, the team may have not - that´s something we´ll have to discuss...etc.etc.".

I would even bet that such a reaction would brought him better press than it turns out now (considering the media reaction after Silverstone 2011, after Mark explained why he decided to race on instead of obeying).

Edited by LiJu914, 25 March 2013 - 12:46.

[gowebber]

Mark wasn't sanctioned anytime he ignored teamorders.. so if Horner punishes Seb for it he is a hypocrit

If you read my last post you would realise what Seb did took it to a whole other level. The outcome and damage was far greater than anything Mark did when apparently ignoring team orders at Brazil. Seb was basically cheating out a win, destablised and dividing the team, risked all WCC points and undermined Horners authority. Webber might push the boundaries but he knows when to call enough is enough. Seb continued on and knew full well what he was doing. Webber considering quitting over this means its a pretty big deal and has done huge damage to RBR's team as a whole. A suspension of a race might make him think twice about pulling something like it again. Webber's no saint but he has honor and would never stab someone in back like that.

[LiJu914]

If you read my last post you would realise what Seb did took it to a whole other level.

To a lower level you mean, i guess? At least he ignored teamorders to actually win a race, unlike Mark who even tried the same thing just for 3 more points.
And please spare me the "Mark was ambushed"-myth. He was full aware of what Vettel was trying. He was battling SV for more than two laps (and also tried to re-overtake him one lap later). Anyone who thinks, he did that, while being in cruise-mode is delusional.

Edited by LiJu914, 25 March 2013 - 12:53.

[Sin]

If you read my last post you would realise what Seb did took it to a whole other level. The outcome and damage was far greater than anything Mark did when apparently ignoring team orders at Brazil. Seb was basically cheating out a win, destablised and dividing the team, risked all WCC points and undermined Horners authority. Webber might push the boundaries but he knows when to call enough is enough. Seb continued on and knew full well what he was doing. Webber considering quitting over this means its a pretty big deal and has done huge damage to RBR's team as a whole. A suspension of a race might make him think twice about pulling something like it again. Webber's no saint but he has honor and would never stab someone in back like that.

it was no different ignoring teamorders is ignoring teamorders.... the whole drama there is now is caused by Mark who thought blubbering team problems out on podium was a great idea.... well You nick kind of gives away why you think the way you think tho....
also in Brazil Mark ignored teamorders while Vettel was fighting hard for WDC

if Seb did wrong, Webber did wrong way before that....

and I say again I generally don't like teamorders from anybody to anybody

Edited by Sin, 25 March 2013 - 12:54.

[choyothe]

I don´t see why much should change for Vettel. When has Mark ever helped him without hesitation?
Once he tried exactly the same thing, Vettel did yesterday - and didn´t even think he was wrong afterwards. He didn´t exactly help last year in Brazil at the start and according to the team even raced him for a certain period of time at the race, when he shouldn´t have - and that was a title decider.

The only thing, that could get worse for Vettel is, if Webber would start to actively sabotage Vettel´s races, if a certain situation would allow that.

And as soon as that happens, RB would obviously fire Webber. There really is no problem for Vettel for the future, Webber has always been a teammate in name only and that's not going to change. I'd wager that if Mark started to take on revenge it would only show up negatively in his performance.

[v@sh]

exactly and still despite pre race strategy Silverstone and Brazil happened where Mark ignored the team, it was no big deal then, Seb probably thought it would not be a big deal now... as he noticed it was a big deal when talking to Newey and when he noticed he disappointed the team he felt genuinly sorry and apologized for not deliberately disappointing the team. He wasn't aware that it would be such a big deal cause it never has been before...

Mark ignored the team at Silverstone but still maintained the gap, he did not however race as hard as Seb here, more to prove a point and hope pressuring Seb into a mistake. Whereas Brazil Webber was definitely not cooperative as already mentioned but he still let Vettel go in the race which most fans have also completely forgotten preferring to focus on the negatives. So the outcome was he followed team orders as much as he was a douche it isn't as bad as what Seb has done here IMO.

It never has been before because Seb has usually been in front by the final pit stop. Now he has had a taste of what Webber has dealt with and how has he behaved? At least Webber still eventually obeyed orders somewhat as opposed to Seb.

[BCM]

Wrong thread.

Edited by BCM, 25 March 2013 - 13:11.

[wrighty]

Mark wasn't sanctioned anytime he ignored teamorders.. so if Horner punishes Seb for it he is a hypocrit

the thing is, if we were to look at who would suffer any lasting damage from this, the answer is probably 'only Webber'......he'll not get over this mentally, and whenever any sort of team order is issued in future his first reactions will be to question it or ignore it or ask the team whether this applies to both drivers or just him (basically mistrust it). Red Bull still get their winner and the resultant coverage, and we know that for everyone who reads the story there's another ten who just see the logo in front of the chequered flag and make their own conclusion. The general press media struggle with the finer points of it and in the end it's just another sporting argument....it didnt even break any rules....


....but in the end you rightly asked 'what do you want him to do about it?' and the only answer to that is 'do as he's told in the first place, like we all do for our boss and like Webber does for his and Hamilton and Rosberg do for theirs' and etc etc etc. He didn't, and he can't change it now....the die is cast and he needs to grasp, much like Michael did after Austria (and Indy, where he nearly took his own teammate out in a six car race) that saying sorry and throwing races 'to return the favour' won't fix anything.

[LiJu914]

Mark ignored the team at Silverstone but still maintained the gap, he did not however race as hard as Seb here, more to prove a point and hope pressuring Seb into a mistake.

Mark Webber himself said, he tried to overtake Vettel. End of story.

[D.M.N.]

Seb should be sanctioned for the next race. Thats about the only fair thing to do. Otherwise Horner is no team boss, just Seb's muppet. Seb is NOT bigger than the RBR team and needs to realise that. I'm not the only one who thinks this. They both might have disobeyed orders before but what Seb did yesterday was taking it to a whole other level and was disgraceful.

http://www.irishtime...ended-1.1337932?

I don't think that would ever happen, because that would be Horner's and Vettel's relationship torn apart. Plus, it means the chances of having Vettel in a red car in 2014 would increase exponentially.

[mnmracer]

Did RB stuff up Webber's pit last pit stop?

I'll answer for you. No they didn't.

Did Webber fall off the road? No he didn't.

How is it then that Vettel picked up 2.5s through just the pit stop?

Don't believe me?

Have a look at the lap times including pit stops for Vettel and Webber on laps 43 and 44 here: http://www.f1fanatic...s-fastest-laps/

Then look at the differential between Vettel and Webber's lap times during the other two stops. Nowhere near the same gap.

Vettel didn't turn down his engine. Webber did. Until he realised what was going on. Then it was too late because he was on cold hards and Vettel was on a couple lap old Mediums that were up to temp.

Look I understand supporting a driver, but none of them are perfect. Vettel pulled a pretty shifty trick to take victory yesterday. If he's as good as he says he is, why not announce on the radio that he wasn't going to settle for second and fight it out driver to driver rather than mug Webber like he did?

Webber himself said he turned down the engine after the pit stop.
Even disregarding that he did so for two corners at most, Webber's claim DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS YOU.
Vettel did not gain 2,5 seconds because Webber had his engine turned down. If you actually looked at the lap times, you'd notice that Webber lost less time in the lap before his last pit stop, then he did with earlier stops.

[mnmracer]

the thing is, if we were to look at who would suffer any lasting damage from this, the answer is probably 'only Webber'......he'll not get over this mentally, and whenever any sort of team order is issued in future his first reactions will be to question it or ignore it or ask the team whether this applies to both drivers or just him (basically mistrust it). Red Bull still get their winner and the resultant coverage, and we know that for everyone who reads the story there's another ten who just see the logo in front of the chequered flag and make their own conclusion. The general press media struggle with the finer points of it and in the end it's just another sporting argument....it didnt even break any rules....


....but in the end you rightly asked 'what do you want him to do about it?' and the only answer to that is 'do as he's told in the first place, like we all do for our boss and like Webber does for his and Hamilton and Rosberg do for theirs' and etc etc etc. He didn't, and he can't change it now....the die is cast and he needs to grasp, much like Michael did after Austria (and Indy, where he nearly took his own teammate out in a six car race) that saying sorry and throwing races 'to return the favour' won't fix anything.

Except Webber doesn't.
Why do you expect Vettel to listen to his bosses to favor his colleague, if his colleague constantly disobeys his bosses when it comes to giving him a favor?

[gowebber]

To a lower level you mean, i guess? At least he ignored teamorders to actually win a race, unlike Mark who even tried the same thing just for 3 more points.
And please spare me the "Mark was ambushed"-myth. He was full aware of what Vettel was trying. He was battling SV for more than two laps (and also tried to re-overtake him one lap later). Anyone who thinks, he did that, while being in cruise-mode is delusional.

How do you know what he was doing? He said he turned the engine down and apparently it takes around 90 secs to change modes on the engine which is plenty of time for Seb to mug him. Mark would have had no idea what Seb was doing when he was pushing hard on his in lap at the final pitstop to catch Mark. He was mugged by Seb who could only catch and pass Mark at that race by cheating his way past. Accept it.

[BCM]

Webber himself said he turned down the engine after the pit stop.
Even disregarding that he did so for two corners at most, Webber's claim DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS YOU.
Vettel did not gain 2,5 seconds because Webber had his engine turned down. If you actually looked at the lap times, you'd notice that Webber lost less time in the lap before his last pit stop, then he did with earlier stops.

You're obviously unable to read a simple graph. Not much point continuing.

Lap 43 - Vettel's pit stop is 115.
Lap 44 - Webber's pit stop is a 117 at best.

Pretty simple math.

And he lost less time than in his previous pit stops? Are you for real?

Previous stops for both were about 117.

The ones previous to that were 118 for vettel 119 for webber.

Edited by BCM, 25 March 2013 - 13:17.

[mnmracer]

You're obviously unable to read a simple graph. Not much point continuing.

If you're having difficulty, let me help you.
Lap 18 - 19: -2.8 seconds
Lap 30 - 31: -2.7 seconds
Lap 42 - 43: -2.4 seconds

[Les]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/21922429

I have to say that whilst I agree with John Watson - Vettel should be punished for what he done yesterday and for undermining the team. A race suspension would be just. However in the real world its just not going to happen, they won't sideline such a valuable commodity with a championship to go for. Vettel will get away with it what he wants - the victory and the championship points. Of course his reputation suffers but that's not really going to bother him. I'm sure it would bother someone like Hamilton but not someone as cold and calculating as Vettel.

The funny thing is that I think Vettel could have let Webber win yesterday and he would still likely end up winning the championship anyway so its probably all for nothing.

[mnmracer]

You're obviously unable to read a simple graph. Not much point continuing.

Lap 43 - Vettel's pit stop is 115.
Lap 44 - Webber's pit stop is a 117 at best.

Pretty simple math.

All Vettel's and Webber's (bar stop 1) other pit stops were 118-117 as well.
Nothing changed on Webber's end.

[gowebber]

it was no different ignoring teamorders is ignoring teamorders.... the whole drama there is now is caused by Mark who thought blubbering team problems out on podium was a great idea.... well You nick kind of gives away why you think the way you think tho....
also in Brazil Mark ignored teamorders while Vettel was fighting hard for WDC

if Seb did wrong, Webber did wrong way before that....

and I say again I generally don't like teamorders from anybody to anybody

Geez I hope you never become a court judge one day. The penalty is judged by the outcome of the crime not by someone ignoring a law/rule. So by your logic if I run a red light and not hit anyone lets apply the same penalty to the person running a red light hitting someone and then killing them!!

Oh and by the way i have congratuled Seb on numerous occasions for driving well. He is a great driver no doubt, probably one of if not potentially the all time great F1 driver. However is actions were reprehensible. Some of my best friends are full on Vettel supporters. I just don't like someone acting like a spoilt brat and cheating out a win like that.

Edited by gowebber, 25 March 2013 - 13:21.

[wrighty]

Except Webber doesn't.
Why do you expect Vettel to listen to his bosses to favor his colleague, if his colleague constantly disobeys his bosses when it comes to giving him a favor?

How many times has Webber finished ahead of Vettel having been told to stay back?

How many times has Vettel taken a win after Webber has been told to stay back?

i'm prepared to make a small wager that the first is '1' and the second is much more.....

[Sin]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/21922429

I have to say that whilst I agree with John Watson - Vettel should be punished for what he done yesterday and for undermining the team. A race suspension would be just. However in the real world its just not going to happen, they won't sideline such a valuable commodity with a championship to go for. Vettel will get away with it what he wants - the victory and the championship points. Of course his reputation suffers but that's not really going to bother him. I'm sure it would bother someone like Hamilton but not someone as cold and calculating as Vettel.

The funny thing is that I think Vettel could have let Webber win yesterday and he would still likely end up winning the championship anyway so its probably all for nothing.

Cold and calculating? Either you hate germans in general and put a cliche on them... or you really hate Vettel to see him this way.... so yeah no wonder you call for a race suspension...

Never seen Seb cold at all or calculating....

[mnmracer]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/21922429

I have to say that whilst I agree with John Watson - Vettel should be punished for what he done yesterday and for undermining the team. A race suspension would be just. However in the real world its just not going to happen, they won't sideline such a valuable commodity with a championship to go for. Vettel will get away with it what he wants - the victory and the championship points. Of course his reputation suffers but that's not really going to bother him. I'm sure it would bother someone like Hamilton but not someone as cold and calculating as Vettel.

The funny thing is that I think Vettel could have let Webber win yesterday and he would still likely end up winning the championship anyway so its probably all for nothing.

Another person that does not say why he feels it is ok for Webber to undermine his team 3!!! times, yet not when Vettel undermines his team once.

[mnmracer]

How many times has Webber finished ahead of Vettel having been told to stay back?

How many times has Vettel taken a win after Webber has been told to stay back?

i'm prepared to make a small wager that the first is '1' and the second is much more.....

In that case, I'd like to collect then.
Silverstone '11, where Webber undermined his bosses, was not for the win.
Abu Dhabi '12, where Webber undermined his bosses, was not for the win.
Brazil '12, where Webber undermined his bosses, was not for the win.

Please share with us the insight that we are apparently missing.

Edited by mnmracer, 25 March 2013 - 13:20.

[Gareth]

This thread is specifically for the apology. More general discussion of the incident is here: http://forums.autosp...howtopic=183304

Given the last couple of pages haven't been on the apology, I'm assuming discussing that has been done to death and am closing this thread. If anyone has a strong desire to discuss the apology - and specifically/only the apology - please feel free to PM me or another mod.

Thanks very much

Gareth