111 replies to this topic

[Hank the Deuce]

Well, today I intently watched a Grand Prix for the first time in more than two decades - really watched it. While that's not nostalgia in any way, the Malaysian GP invoked a server meltdown in here. All manner of motorsport forums were alive with robust discussion on team orders, perceived treachery, honesty and all sorts of things. I've seen Pironi and Villeneuve's named invoked more than once.

All this not even a week after Ayrton Senna's birthday.

That got me thinking, as I'd been ruminating on how that day had passed all but unremarked in here; despite TNF's celebration of all things historic, a triple WDC victor, with a stats sheet longer than a roll of Sorbent, gone these near two decades, and he barely raised a murmur on what would've been his 53rd birthday.

The last time I watched F1 semi-religiously, Senna was a one-time WDC winner. The whole thing between he and Prost pretty much killed the buzz for me at the time.

So anyway, getting somewhere near to the point...

Does a driver's ruthless self-interest truly taint his reputation for all time? While it's rare for even the most humbled champion to be completely devoid of ego, is a win-at-all-cost-and-my -team-and-team-mate-be-hanged work ethic responsible for the indifference and antipathy in which TNF seems to largely hold for drivers such as Senna or Schumacher?

How will history remember Vettel? A Stewart? A Prost? A Lauda? A Senna?

Or merely a vague footnote to a period of F1 that still never approached glory days, regardless of the coin thrown at it?

And who else was too ruthless to be regarded as admirable? Did this sort of thing taint Lauda's reputation despite what I always considered prodigious cunning?

[kayemod]

So anyway, getting somewhere near to the point...

Does a driver's ruthless self-interest truly taint his reputation for all time? While it's rare for even the most humbled champion to be completely devoid of ego, is a win-at-all-cost-and-my -team-and-team-mate-be-hanged work ethic responsible for the indifference and antipathy in which TNF seems to largely hold for drivers such as Senna or Schumacher?

I agree with what you say, to me "hard but fair" is just about the finest accolade that a driver can receive from fans and his peers, but we have to face the fact that ethics in sport, as well as in many other areas, have changed over the years, and not for the better. The men I've admired most, some from personal experience, the others just by reading about them, are Nuvolari, Sir Stirling, Rosemeyer, and more recently Denny Hulme, Keke Rosberg, Mika Häkkinen and Kimi Räikkönen, all of whom, although perhaps not quite perfect human beings, were/are decent chaps on-track, with the earlier ones of course that was the only way to stay alive, not really so important in today's F1-lite. But as I said, the world has changed, to many in sport, winning is the only thing that matters, and they'll do whatever they have to to achieve that, look at the rise and fall of men like Lance Armstrong. Many of today's followers will admire and praise them for that attitude, it's only us old farts, who still remember what Castrol R smells like, who don't approve. Years ago, you'd never have seen sports people pictured in the back pages of newspapers with rictus snarls, punching the air in triumph, now they are an almost permanent feature. Yes, the world has changed, I haven't bothered to look, but I bet Vettel and Hamilton are being praised over in Racing Comments right now.

[RStock]

Frank Williams once said "F1 drivers are ruthless bastards because they have to be".


I have nothing more to add.

[cpbell]

I agree with what you say, to me "hard but fair" is just about the finest accolade that a driver can receive from fans and his peers, but we have to face the fact that ethics in sport, as well as in many other areas, have changed over the years, and not for the better. The men I've admired most, some from personal experience, the others just by reading about them, are Nuvolari, Sir Stirling, Rosemeyer, and more recently Denny Hulme, Keke Rosberg, Mika Häkkinen and Kimi Räikkönen, all of whom, although perhaps not quite perfect human beings, were/are decent chaps on-track, with the earlier ones of course that was the only way to stay alive, not really so important in today's F1-lite. But as I said, the world has changed, to many in sport, winning is the only thing that matters, and they'll do whatever they have to to achieve that, look at the rise and fall of men like Lance Armstrong. Many of today's followers will admire and praise them for that attitude, it's only us old farts, who still remember what Castrol R smells like, who don't approve. Years ago, you'd never have seen sports people pictured in the back pages of newspapers with rictus snarls, punching the air in triumph, now they are an almost permanent feature. Yes, the world has changed, I haven't bothered to look, but I bet Vettel and Hamilton are being praised over in Racing Comments right now.

Agreed, though I don't consider Hamilton to have behaved in a comparable manner to Vettel today.

[kayemod]

Agreed, though I don't consider Hamilton to have behaved in a comparable manner to Vettel today.

Yes I agree, I wasn't really criticising Lewis for what he did, only the somewhat artificial outcome. In the very best traditions of a German team he was only obeying orders.

Similarly, seeing the post-race chat between David Coulthard & Suzi Perry, it's easy to see who still pulls DC's strings, do Red Bull still pay him? I didn't think much of Suzi's debut last week, but she did a lot better today, she stood her ground very well.

[cpbell]

Yes I agree, I wasn't really criticising Lewis for what he did, only the somewhat artificial outcome. In the very best traditions of a German team he was only obeying orders.

Similarly, seeing the post-race chat between David Coulthard & Suzi Perry, it's easy to see who still pulls DC's strings, do Red Bull still pay him? I didn't think much of Suzi's debut last week, but she did a lot better today, she stood her ground very well.

Agreed. DC made a reasonable point, but it seemed a bit sad somehow that a driver who, in my recollection always seemed to play the team game seemed desperate to defend someone who refused to do the same. As far as Suzi is concerned, her comments today seemed to me to stem from her background in motorcycle racing - no radio and more "independently-minded" competitors.

[dwh43scale]

How silly of my, I had forgotten DC's loyalties - he did seem to be defending the somewhat indefensible.

Found Suzi Perry an improvement on Jake (she seems not to need the iPad either). Didn't see OZ, was experiencing Speed / NBC in the US with Hobbs, Matchett et al.

[RStock]

To put that quote like that is probably out of the (original) context.

I don't recall the exact context but it was in an interview and I believe it was about the Senna/Prost feud, and had to do more with politics and back door dealings off track as opposed to on track. It's on one of the F1 season review DVDs I have, don't recall which one.

[chr1s]

I seem to recall that Frank Williams was'nt that pleased when Carlos Reutemann was a ruthless bastard in Rio 81!

[yulzari]

I have always felt that being ruthless is somewhat immature. Being steely determined is something different and is a measure of being a man (in a non sexist way). Vettel's 'oh it's all right I have pushed the apology button so I am off the hook' attempt showed him, however talented, to still be a spoiled brat. Albeit a spoiled brat with better media skills than Schumacher. Pity about the victory leap off the car and the punching no1 finger before the apology.....

There are those who show that they deserve respect as men, not boys. Massa surprised me in how well he took the disappointment of losing out on the world championship from Hamilton at the last moment even after he had crossed the line. Massa has talent but he also has the genius to be able to seek and take advice. Webber impressed with a visibly restrained response to Vettel's treachery. I have no doubt it will end in tears somehow. Possibly Marko's head on a plate. The picture appeared in my mind of Alan Jones in the same circumstances decking Vettel on camera. Rosberg played it just right. Made the point and will get his turn from the company. Hamilton (not a favourite of mine) handled the team orders affair equally well.

What Vettel did was tell Red Bull that he was more important than them. This will not go down well with ‎Dietrich Mateschitz nor any of the team. The car is not provided to give the driver a chance to play racer. The driver is the paid cabbie for the car everyone else created.

[simonlewisbooks]

I think the term that might really be up for discussion here, as much as ruthless is professional , as in; paid to do the job because you have the ability.
Disobeying logical team orders seems unprofessional. Certainly it did no favours for the team, it's image or that of it's owner/sponsor....for about the next three weeks at any rate
As for Dr Marko, there was a comment recently that he saw Vettel as 'the second coming' and beyond reproach.
If thats true than today at least, to quote the Pythons (can't resist) "He's not the Messiah he's a very naughty boy!"

I have to add that this race got my other-half and my two little daughters (4 and 6) chattering away about F1 as never before once the flag had fallen and the highly amusing interviews got under way!

[E1pix]

How will history remember?...

Just my opinion of history, per my recollection:
1) Vettel: Stunning, tactful, fair enough at this level and certainly fairer than his mate;
2) Stewart: Best of his era, exorbitantly fair for the good of his sport, saved untold later lives with his concerns for safety;
3) Prost: A calculated machine in Lauda's shadow, not often prone to fairness over victory;
4) Lauda: The original machine of this group, inhuman accuracy lap after lap, don't recollect many unfair tactics;
5) Senna: Ruthless to the core and just as fast, commanded respect from Day 1, but I only saw a likable personality when once at Williams first of 1994.


One thing I'm really wondering... Did you enjoy the race after so long away?

[LittleChris]

Regardless of everything that has been discussed above ad nauseum, I thought Vettel was VERY brave diving down the inside by the pit wall but Webber ws VERY fair giving him an inch or so and no more .

[seldo]

Regardless of everything that has been discussed above ad nauseum, I thought Vettel was VERY brave diving down the inside by the pit wall but Webber ws VERY fair giving him an inch or so and no more .

I'm quite sure that if the positions were reversed it would have been a different outcome...

[ellrosso]

Dead right David, wasn't that long ago that Mark held his line and didn't move - and Vettel drove straight into him!

[seldo]

Dead right David, wasn't that long ago that Mark held his line and didn't move - and Vettel drove straight into him!

...and then whinged like a spoilt brat...along with Horner, Marko et al

Edited by seldo, 25 March 2013 - 05:06.

[kayemod]

Regardless of everything that has been discussed above ad nauseum, I thought Vettel was VERY brave diving down the inside by the pit wall but Webber ws VERY fair giving him an inch or so and no more .

Brings us back to that "hard but fair" thing doesn't it? Vettel wouldn't have been 'BRAVE' enough to try the same thing with Michael Schumacher.

[TecnoRacing]

Just my opinion of history, per my recollection:

5) Senna: Ruthless to the core and just as fast, commanded respect from Day 1, but I only saw a likable personality when once at Williams first of 1994.

Funny I think Senna was probably one of the most genuinely charismatic drivers to ever sit in a racecar. Warm, funny, deep thinking. He could be a bit delusional, and bit of a bastard sure, but he was a beautiful one ;)

(Not a dilettante of late comer either. Just having read and watched most everything there is of the man, both in period and subsequent - the good and the bad - the least value of which was perhaps the recent 'Senna' film, which incidentally I though manege to do a disservice to both Alain and Ayrton)

[Hank the Deuce]

One thing I'm really wondering... Did you enjoy the race after so long away?

Truthfully? I thoroughly enjoyed it! That said, I don't think there's any illusion of witnessing a Golden Age of the sport - at all... my biggest surprise was that Webber didn't have Vettel by the throat as soon as they were through with the podium.

My two bob on yesterday's race was that Vettel's actions were naught but self-serving. While he didn't have his team-mate off, it wasn't a gentlemens agreement he chose to ignore; it was a directive from Head Office (as I see such things in today's corporate "sport" environments). While if one was to compare his actions to those of Reutemann or Pironi three decades ago, I think that the perceived treachery of these two would be mostly considered reprehensible on the grounds of being somehow unbecoming of a sportsman ... certainly when compared to the chivalry of Sir Stirling Moss, they would've have been grubby acts at the time ... but Vettel? Completely self-serving for mine, but again, at least he didn't trash any race cars through his own vanity.

For mine, another shining example of why statistics will never tell the true story of greatness when viewed across the fields of time.

[john winfield]

I like John Watson's suggestion that Red Bull should suspend Vettel for one race.
Sports teams occasionally suspend top players, even without pressure from the authorities, but are there any examples in Grand Prix racing? Drivers have been sacked, replaced, suspended by the sporting authorities, unavoidably detained (Gachot etc.), but has any top team voluntarily disciplined one of its own drivers in this way, temporarily reducing the team's competitiveness for the 'greater good'?

[Tim Murray]

The only one I can currently think of is Toleman's suspension of Senna for one race in 1984 after they found out he was moving to Lotus.

I too liked Wattie's suggestion, but I think there's more chance of me winning the lottery than of that happening, sadly.

[Glengavel]

I like John Watson's suggestion that Red Bull should suspend Vettel for one race.
Sports teams occasionally suspend top players, even without pressure from the authorities, but are there any examples in Grand Prix racing? Drivers have been sacked, replaced, suspended by the sporting authorities, unavoidably detained (Gachot etc.), but has any top team voluntarily disciplined one of its own drivers in this way, temporarily reducing the team's competitiveness for the 'greater good'?

That might lead to an interesting discussion between the team and Vettel's sponsors.

[simonlewisbooks]

That might lead to an interesting discussion between the team and Vettel's sponsors.

Given the team is owned and largely sponsored by the same chap...I doubt it

[eibyyz]

Hold out your wrist, Seb...

[kayemod]

Hold out your wrist, Seb...

No, a severe financial penalty would be more effective, they should make him bail out Cyprus.

[Ray Bell]

Would that be enough?

The level of 'earnings' of these blokes, I'd imagine he'd replace those funds before finishing qualifying for the next race.

[simonlewisbooks]

And then he could pay to convert the Olympic stadium for West Ham's use before the end of lap 2....

[alansart]

I like John Watson's suggestion that Red Bull should suspend Vettel for one race.

Make SV do one race for Toro Rosso and put one of the TR drivers in the Red Bull. That'll make him think a bit and also show just how good the TR drivers are in a decent car. (Idea nicked from Facebook )

[RStock]

Make SV do one race for Toro Rosso and put one of the TR drivers in the Red Bull. That'll make him think a bit and also show just how good the TR drivers are in a decent car. (Idea nicked from Facebook )

Well, those TR's have looked pretty good this year, and Seb won a race in one when they weren't as good, so I'm not sure what punishment that would be.

No, I think Seb's punishment will be having to take a wide line around Webber for the rest of the season, both on and off track.

[yulzari]

I may well be wrong but I see Helmut Marko as a man embittered by a failed BRM career who is living out his own ambitions through his young protoge and is thus unable to see fault in Vettel as he would be seeing fault in himself.

A harsh opinion I accept, and of a man I have never met, but it does explain his words and deeds.

[Hawkeye]

Maybe Germans/Austrians just don't get the concept of sporting behaviour? Something in the national ethos, perhaps??

Schumi, Vettel & Marko seem to lead one to this suspicion but perhaps there are/have been 'sporting' Germans somewhere in the history of the sport?

(if so, let's have some names, plse! Maybe Lauda was 'sporting', if erring towards methodical - Von Trips, perhaps, but before my time, so I don't really know)

[alansart]

I may well be wrong but I see Helmut Marko as a man embittered by a failed BRM career who is living out his own ambitions through his young protoge and is thus unable to see fault in Vettel as he would be seeing fault in himself.

A harsh opinion I accept, and of a man I have never met, but it does explain his words and deeds.

I'm not sure I would say Helmut Marko had a failed career as it was an unfortunate eye injury that finished it. He did win Le Mans after all and I do seem to remember him as a pretty quick driver.

I must admit, I'm not really sure what he does at Red Bull (apart from wind up the odd Australian)

[Mal9444]

I like John Watson's suggestion that Red Bull should suspend Vettel for one race.
Sports teams occasionally suspend top players, even without pressure from the authorities, but are there any examples in Grand Prix racing? Drivers have been sacked, replaced, suspended by the sporting authorities, unavoidably detained (Gachot etc.), but has any top team voluntarily disciplined one of its own drivers in this way, temporarily reducing the team's competitiveness for the 'greater good'?

Lofty England sacked Duncan Hamilton for ignoring team orders to hold position and instead overtaking Paul Frere to win the 1956 Rheims 12-hour race (now THERE's nostalgia for you).

Edited by Mal9444, 25 March 2013 - 18:56.

[ChrisRiv]

What Vettel did was tell Red Bull that he was more important than them. This will not go down well with ‎Dietrich Mateschitz nor any of the team. The car is not provided to give the driver a chance to play racer. The driver is the paid cabbie for the car everyone else created.

I have to disagree, the amount of publicity Mr Mateschitz and his beverage has received over the past 24 hours is well worth the investment I would have thought!!

[scheivlak]

I may well be wrong but I see Helmut Marko as a man embittered by a failed BRM career

A disgusting comment in view of the circumstances why "his career failed."
Better first check some facts about what you say.

[scheivlak]

Maybe Germans/Austrians just don't get the concept of sporting behaviour? Something in the national ethos, perhaps??

What a surprise that I immediately guessed the nationality of this poster

[kayemod]

I like John Watson's suggestion that Red Bull should suspend Vettel for one race.

Maybe Red Bull aren't that bothered about team morale, but assuming that Webber has a real following there, they have to do something to get the message across to Vettel, and a race ban would do that. Unless Webber feels that they've taken the situation that seriously, he's going to have a chip on his shoulder for the rest of his time in the team, and we wouldn't want an Australian with a chip on his shoulder would we?

It would also get loads more column-inches for Red Bull, which is almost their only reason for existing, but I can't see them sanctioning the boy that severely, more's the pity.

[GMACKIE]

I wonder about "Team Rules" - are they written down, or just verbal?. As we know, a verbal agreement is not worth the paper it's written on.

A bit like a "Gentleman's Agreement".......fine if you are dealing with a "Gentleman".

[chr1s]

Maybe Germans/Austrians just don't get the concept of sporting behaviour? Something in the national ethos, perhaps??

Schumi, Vettel & Marko seem to lead one to this suspicion but perhaps there are/have been 'sporting' Germans somewhere in the history of the sport?

(if so, let's have some names, plse! Maybe Lauda was 'sporting', if erring towards methodical - Von Trips, perhaps, but before my time, so I don't really know)

If it helps, this is what Lauda had to say on the subject of team orders back in 1976: "I told him (Audetto) he could hang out any notice board he liked, yellow, green or red, with plus and minus and double minus, I wouldn't look at it"

[jj2728]

The best part of yesterday's affair was the expressions on the respective faces of the Red Bull hierarchy as they watched the podium proceedings.
"Please Mark, don't go ghetto on us and bing Sebastion on the head with the bubbly"......
And of course Niki looking all lumberjack in his attire....you gotta love Lauda.

[scheivlak]

The best part of yesterday's affair was the expressions on the respective faces of the Red Bull hierarchy as they watched the podium proceedings.
"Please Mark, don't go ghetto on us and bing Sebastion on the head with the bubbly"......

They were pretty smart to bring Newey on the podium and not say, Horner, Marko or one of Seb's engineers.......

[john aston]

Maybe Germans/Austrians just don't get the concept of sporting behaviour? Something in the national ethos, perhaps??

Schumi, Vettel & Marko seem to lead one to this suspicion but perhaps there are/have been 'sporting' Germans somewhere in the history of the sport?

(if so, let's have some names, plse! Maybe Lauda was 'sporting', if erring towards methodical - Von Trips, perhaps, but before my time, so I don't really know)

Errr.. this sort of comment is sailing into waters which I certainly don't want to venture into. For what it's worth I think you might find that, for example , Jochen Mass was the very essence of a gentleman. Vettel, Lauda ,Piquet, Mansell , Hamilton and Senna have one thing in common and it is obviously not nationality or ethnicity- they are ruthless and selfish egotists- it's why they are so successful. Not to do with where they were born.

[onelung]

I wonder about "Team Rules" - are they written down, or just verbal?. As we know, a verbal agreement is not worth the paper it's written on.

A bit like a "Gentleman's Agreement".......fine if you are dealing with a "Gentleman".

And having watched the post-race footage I'd suggest that Webber is much more of a "gentleman" - and a truly professional gentleman at that - than his cut throat so-called team "mate", who might just possibly be in need of a hearing test?

[eldougo]

Dr Evil Mako is so obsessed with young Vettle that he will do anything to keep Mark from winning .They try all last season to ruin his starts and again in the first race this season and when he get a good start and position himself to lead they come out with team orders for him and not for the golden hair Dr BOY?
I hope Mark will form now on not obey orders .and what will they do sack him because he will be leaving at the end of the year thats for sure.
Dr Evil you should hang your head in shame.and don,t be so one eyed.

[simonlewisbooks]

I think it's a generation thing, not a question of nationality.
Just look at the way driving standards degenerated in the 80s and it goes hand in hand with sporting-behaviour and 'gentlemen's agreements'. It wasn't nailed early by the FIA/FISA and once those in the lower ranks saw appalling driving going unpunished at the top it was open season. Win at ANY cost...

Couple that to the remote-control aspect of racing today where tactics and decisions are taken out of the drivers hands and given to the engineers who tell them when to push, when to ease off etc. and you can see why it all looks so dubious. In the days of pit boards, before remote telemetry and mandatory pit stops, no one had a much control over the driver once the lights changed and he used his own ability and morality far more than is now the case. In some respects that mirrors modern society where the element of individual choice is restricted more and more each passing year by regulations from above.

Perhaps the one positive from all of this is that it shows the days of fully pit-controlled engines appear to be behind us, unless all the management angst in KL was an elaborate act?

[Glengavel]

Errr.. this sort of comment is sailing into waters which I certainly don't want to venture into. For what it's worth I think you might find that, for example , Jochen Mass was the very essence of a gentleman. Vettel, Lauda ,Piquet, Mansell , Hamilton and Senna have one thing in common and it is obviously not nationality or ethnicity- they are ruthless and selfish egotists- it's why they are so successful. Not to do with where they were born.

This is what I'm thinking. Sad to say, but it partly explains why Vettel is a triple world champion and Webber isn't.

[kayemod]

"Maybe Germans/Austrians just don't get the concept of sporting behaviour? Something in the national ethos, perhaps??"

Errr.. this sort of comment is sailing into waters which I certainly don't want to venture into.

Yes, dangerous waters indeed, but trying not to upset anyone, I'll have a go. Different nationalities do indeed see things in different ways, and I think that in many ways the peculiarly English concept of sporting fair play is not all that widely shared, though that's not to suggest that those not sharing it are necessarily wrong. I have Austrian and German friends, and we've had many lengthy discussions on topics like this, many of which they just can't quite grasp, and I'm sure it works the same the other way. One such discussion I recall with an Austrian friend we were staying with concerned the Falklands. He couldn't grasp the concept of self-determination, moral crusades and 'doing the right thing', "Why didn't you just let the Argies have them?" I defended The Blessed Margaret as best I could, without dragging Anschluß and the Sudetenland into the conversation, but it all seemed to fall on deaf ears. Next time we see each other, if I'm feeling brave, I'll sound him out on the concepts of sportsmanship and fair play as understood by German speakers. It's a fact that different nations see the same things in different ways, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are right or wrong.

[Hawkeye]

Well, my tongue was (only slightly) in cheek, as I wrote my earlier posting about Austro-German behavioural tendencies and I certainly foresaw some critical comments coming back, in our PC climate!

In reality, I fully accept that the situation is more 'of the times' than 'of the nationality' and that it is just a manifestation of where the business now stands, in being long ago moved on from being a true sport. Surely true in F1 but also true in many other sporting activities, as the emphasis is always on 'win', at the cost of any sporting reservations.

The times, they have a changed now.................(with apologies to Bob)

[Joe Bosworth]

To bring the thread back on track I will relate an experience; (as this has now deteriorated into another Webber/Vettel things for which there are many on the Racing Forum.

Back in the early 1990s I boarded a business class flight from London to Oz. A few minutes before takeoff a very nicely dressed lady of slightly greater age than my own settled in the adjoining seat. We pleasantly nodded and went about our business of readying for the hop to Singapore.

A few minutes after takeoff, lo and behold, she pulled out the latest issue of Autosport to read. Well hello, this was rather unusual to say the least as she would have been pushing a rather elegant 70 years of age. A judicious couple of comments found that she has been in England for her son's F3 race. Two and two was put together and deduction led to me concluding that this was Lady Betty Brabham.

What ensued next was several hours of lovely discussion of the many people we knew in common and where they were and what they were doing while we enjoyed the good wine and food as was on offer back then.

Anyway, to get to the point, she offerred that Jack always felt that John Surtees was the hardest competitor that he ever drove against. He always wished that he could get John to manage their son's in their carrers so that some of the hardness could rub off.

Given that Jack was a very competitive driver this is quite an accolade. It also says a whole bunch for Surtees as his on track demeanor was exemplorary.

Regards

Joe

[yulzari]

A disgusting comment in view of the circumstances why "his career failed."
Better first check some facts about what you say.

I apologise for leaving out a reference to his terrible injury. It was not that to which I was referring but that the BRM drive was petering out. He was a competent driver and sports cars benefit from a fast enough steady driver but the end of his F1 career was inevitable.

In the unlikely event of you reading this Dr Marko I am sure you had a continuing driving career ahead of you but not in F1. To permanently lose the chance of proving yourself in a field where you are convinced you have the ability to go to the top (otherwise why do it?) must be potentially embittering as it is not something over ones' own control. You certainly have infinitely more skill than I. My only BRM experience being a brief practice with a 2 valve V12 360 bhp P153 and it frightened me silly.

IIRC it brought in Makrolon(?) visors to reduce the chance of others suffering the same. Though as we know sadly with Henry Surtees and Felipe Massa, the hazard still exists.

I wish Dr Marko well in life but my opinion, whilst always open to change, remains the same

Edited by yulzari, 26 March 2013 - 13:06.