78 replies to this topic

[fabr68]

What do you guys think?

[BCM]

You need another option:

d) No, because neither of them can be trusted to obey them. They should just assume the other driver is a member of another team and act accordingly. Team management don't actually have any control.

I think things are now as bad in RB as they ever were in McLaren between Prost and Senna or they were between Alonso and Hamilton.

Funnily enough Prost would argue that Senna pulled the same stunt on him that lead to all out warfare between them.

Edited by BCM, 24 March 2013 - 13:39.

[choyothe]

Didn't find a suitable answer. Depends of the situation, if the leading driver is leading the championship and the guy behind is far behind and we're half way or more into the season, then he should obey and calm the situation down. If it's race #2, first of all the team shouldn't give an order, but if it does I don't see why he driver should obey it.

[F1ultimate]

Webber will obey it and I'm sure the team will enforce that with golden handcuffs.

[Shiroo]

He should ****in ram Vettel out of the track, change the front wing and get 3rd place cuz of lost time.

[NotSoSilentBob]

After Vettel returns the favour and gifts a win to Mark (in the next few races) as a proper apology, then YES they should respect the rule.

If Vettel completely gets away with this.....

[GerardF1]

Vettel is no better than Pironi

[jerriy]

After Vettel returns the favour...

It will surely happen........ after the WDC has been determined.

Edited by jerriy, 24 March 2013 - 14:04.

[Henrik B]

They should, but they wont.

[Skinnyguy]

Both of them have done what they should in my view when they got the order in recent times: Be given info by your team, then decide yourself what to do.

[SpaMaster]

When you are going to be okay with his answer, it is hypocritical to ask judgement from the fans.

[Cyanide]

If it's race #2, first of all the team shouldn't give an order, but if it does I don't see why he driver should obey it.

What kind of logic is that? On what planet do you think drivers get employed to not listen to what the team is telling them to do? If Domenicali told Massa to not pass Alonso, and Massa would've done just the opposite, he'd be in Brazil washing laundry by now. Seb gets a free pass on this because he has 3 titles with Red Bull and he's basically the golden boy there. That still doesn't mean he should completely ignore what his employers tell him to do.

I do agree that there was no need for Red Bull to give an order like that. They should've just let them race it out.

[SpaMaster]

^ Well, to be fair, Webber has gotten away with it in the past not obeying team orders. It looks like it is Wild Wild West at Red Bull. Neither drivers obey team-specific instructions when it comes to drivers' points.

[choyothe]

What kind of logic is that? On what planet do you think drivers get employed to not listen to what the team is telling them to do? If Domenicali told Massa to not pass Alonso, and Massa would've done just the opposite, he'd be in Brazil washing laundry by now. Seb gets a free pass on this because he has 3 titles with Red Bull and he's basically the golden boy there. That still doesn't mean he should completely ignore what his employers tell him to do.

I do agree that there was no need for Red Bull to give an order like that. They should've just let them race it out.

Then why hasn't Mark been surfing in Australia for almost 2 years now?

Your 2nd point answers your 1st. I believe that drivers have the right to race each other in the second race of the season, no matter the situation. The teams were the biggest losers today IMO.

[Zava]

I was happy with it when Webber decided to ignore it and raced Seb, and was happy with it when Seb decided to ignore it and race Mark. let them race.
people are outraged by team orders, and say that drivers shouldn't obey, but when one does not obey and races his teammate, they are outraged again. there are people who can't be satisfied.

[STRFerrari4Ever]

I was happy with it when Webber decided to ignore it and raced Seb, and was happy with it when Seb decided to ignore it and race Mark. let them race.
people are outraged by team orders, and say that drivers shouldn't obey, but when one does not obey and races his teammate, they are outraged again. there are people who can't be satisfied.

EVERYONE read this Hallelujah

You lot finally get what you cry out for, then you try and take the moral high ground and say it was cheap and low? Stop being so hypocritical.

Maybe it's because it was Vettel who did it, would there be this much of a fuss if ti was Rosberg just passing Hamilton like he was more than capable of doing? I think not.

[Sakae]

Webber will obey it and I'm sure the team will enforce that with golden handcuffs.

He hasn't in the past, and in return he got pat on his back by DM just to calm him down, so he stops crying to press every time he gets near a microphone.

[jstrains]

Vettel says he was not aware of anything like that

[Sausage]

Whatever they feel like in such a situation. Obeying or not obeying team-orders is really a social kind of thing so whatever the outcome of RB's internal talk is is probably going to dictate how they continue on.

[apoka]

After Vettel returns the favour and gifts a win to Mark (in the next few races) as a proper apology, then YES they should respect the rule.

The win was not gifted. Vettel received worse strategy calls, which is the only reason he was behind Webber. Behavior on and off the track can be discussed, but the fastest driver/car combo won.

[fabr68]

The win was not gifted. Vettel received worse strategy calls, which is the only reason he was behind Webber. Behavior on and off the track can be discussed, but the fastest driver/car combo won.

The issue is Red Bull has set a rule before going racing that in the last few laps when running a 1-2 they must hold station to protect the finish. I don't think their agreement is based on "fastest driver win" but rather on position towards the end of the race.

If one of the drivers can't hold to this agreement I don't see it flying for the remaining of the season until one of them is totally out of contention.

[KnucklesAgain]

Vettel says he was not aware of anything like that

And Horner said he's lying

[choyothe]

The issue is Red Bull has set a rule before going racing that in the last few laps when running a 1-2 they must hold station to protect the finish. I don't think their agreement is based on "fastest driver win" but rather on position towards the end of the race.

If one of the drivers can't hold to this agreement I don't see it flying for the remaining of the season until one of them is totally out of contention.

Nor it should. That's just a terrible rule.

[STRFerrari4Ever]

Maintain the gap

just gonna leave this here.

[Rakaman]

And Horner said he's lying

Everyone knows he's lying so I don't see why he's bothering with all this double speak crap. He knew perfectly well that the order was and chose to ignore it. Personally, I think the way Vettel is trying to cover his ass is worse than what he did. He should at least have the guts to own up to his actions with something like "Yeah, you know what, it's gonna come down to the wire and people don't win championships by letting their teammates finish ahead of them." That at least I could respect.

[itsademo]

What do you guys think?

why no option for Webber to say to hell with team orders as Red bull only expect one driver to obey such things so why should he bother just ignore what the wall say

[itsademo]

Vettel says he was not aware of anything like that

really everyone even Marko was aware

Vettel just proved not only is he untrustworthy when it comes to his team and what they think is best but also an out and out liar too

[apoka]

The issue is Red Bull has set a rule before going racing that in the last few laps when running a 1-2 they must hold station to protect the finish. I don't think their agreement is based on "fastest driver win" but rather on position towards the end of the race.

If one of the drivers can't hold to this agreement I don't see it flying for the remaining of the season until one of them is totally out of contention.

I didn't want to argue about not following the team order (which is heavily discussed elsewhere), but just wanted to point out that I don't think Vettel should gift Webber a race win in the future - Vettel was most likely the fastest car/driver combo today and in a pure performance (not moral) sense the win is deserved. Of course, RB probably needs to take steps to improve the situation, but gifting a win in return is not a viable option in my opinion.

[WhatOh]

I didn't want to argue about not following the team order (which is heavily discussed elsewhere), but just wanted to point out that I don't think Vettel should gift Webber a race win in the future - Vettel was most likely the fastest car/driver combo today and in a pure performance (not moral) sense the win is deserved. Of course, RB probably needs to take steps to improve the situation, but gifting a win in return is not a viable option in my opinion.

I totally agree with you. Even if it came from a good place, I doubt it would be received well by anyone, least of all Webber.

[fabr68]

Again. It does not matter if Vettel was faster or not. It is a matter of a team order based on a pre-race agreement by both drivers.

[goldenboy]

They should both ignore it from now on and race each other like they hate each other! Have at it.

[Lee Nicolle]

Nor it should. That's just a terrible rule.

This from a one eyed fan boy of a driver that has broken team orders on more than one occasion.
I do not remember Mark doing so, proving he was faster yes but not winning when told to hold station.
Remember if Vettel had not got such favored treatment he would have at least one less title.
And that was the time before legal team orders.
Yes he is generally that bit faster than Mark, but is an arrogant little prick with Marko as his sugar daddy.
Will Horner and Newey maybe give Vettel the 2nd rate stuff now? Probably not more is the pity.

[PassWind]

What is clear is someone has had a word with Marko as well, probably after his comments which meant a few unnecessary media questions of the team post his Webber commentary probably from Mr M himself. If Marko can follow team orders, Vettel should also and honestly I think Vettel understands that despite his inadequate use of English to explain his actions, which for me is acceptable because of the non-native nature of it.

Vettel was probably pissed at himself when he made the mistake of going in a little too early for slicks, his fault not the teams. He probably forgets that Mark can take it too him when needed and also a race today is not about outright car performance but involves a huge amount of race management. The fans who want wheel to wheel racing should instead of bitching about its only race two pause and remember its not about race two, its about how many races that engine and gearbox have to last, decisions made by drivers in the heat of a race could bite them on the ass down the track because the cars don't get reset race to race, they need to survive multiple races to ensure race reliability while delivering maximum results.

The only way to cure this for the must race to the end crowd is to give them a tire that will let the car use its performance, allow refueling, allow new engine and gearbox every race; however we know that pushes budgets through the roof and ultimately the teams who invest in the sport don't want this and have agreed to the handicaps to still race but keep costs down.

So many parameters that the casual or fan of just pure racing just don't get or want to, pure racing left the sport some time ago and there is now a ever narrowing window where drivers can with confidence use the car to race, at all other times its race management in regards to a much bigger picture.

Edited by PassWind, 24 March 2013 - 23:57.

[OO7]

I don't know, but 'Multi 21' sounds like a vitamin or supplement to me.

[fabr68]

I don't know, but 'Multi 21' sounds like a vitamin or supplement to me.

I think it is the code to lower the engine revs.

[BellisEndis]

^ Well, to be fair, Webber has gotten away with it in the past not obeying team orders. It looks like it is Wild Wild West at Red Bull. Neither drivers obey team-specific instructions when it comes to drivers' points.

Yeah where has he made a pass when told not too??

Maintain the gap

just gonna leave this here.

Again where did he overtake him? Vettel could of done the same to "prove" his point but no he did a loser fly by.

Also Mark had his measure all race and I bet if allowed to race to the end he still would of, he Let him passed in the end and didn't challenge him back.

[dbltop]

What do I think? I think Webber, Vettel and his girlfriend Helmut should be locked in a room with three baseball bats. Winner take all. The management at Red Bull started all this **** three years ago, they deserve to lay in the stink now.

[steen]

...but gifting a win in return is not a viable option in my opinion.

The only sane thing you've said. Gifting a win is as hollow as suckerpunching your team after they've brought you back into the fray. They'll race as they have, perhaps with a bit less margin at times.

[joshb]

I take it you're not keen on Vettel!

Massive over-reaction because its Seb, because its the big name. If it were Kimi and Grosjean or Button and Perez, no-one gives a toss, but its Vettel, so lets slaughter him!
Webber's got his mates in the press, he'll try a few tricks that didn't work in 2010 but Seb is a tougher nut to crack and he needs to remember putting 33 points on the line at Silverstone 2011.
I'd love to see the reaction if Seb, being the gent he is, yielded a win to Webber if they were 1-2 next race.

They'll get over it, Webber will sign another 1 year contract

[Iremos]

Vettel quotes from yesterday:

"I think it’s very difficult to be best friends with any of the drivers but I think we share respect and I respect Mark as a racing driver."

"Mark is too slow - get him out of the way. He is too slow!"

Cunning little egomaniac!

[steen]

I take it you're not keen on Vettel!

If directed at my comment, I don't mind him.

I'd love to see the reaction if Seb, being the gent he is, yielded a win to Webber if they were 1-2 next race.

Comedy gold. Get your hand outta SV's knickers!

They'll get over it, Webber will sign another 1 year contract

Nothing like an $8m paycheck to salve the ego.

[KnucklesAgain]

Must watch "Talk from Hangar 7" on Red Bull's "Servus TV" channel tonight, they always have reports and interviews about the race.

[V8 Fireworks]

The only sane thing you've said. Gifting a win is as hollow as suckerpunching your team after they've brought you back into the fray. They'll race as they have, perhaps with a bit less margin at times.

Don't worry Webber will take the win from Vettel by unfairly undercutting Vettel even though he is behind, he and his race engineer are now allowed to do this on precedent.

It will be handy many times in future races for the crew of #2.

[Zava]

Don't worry Webber will take the win from Vettel by unfairly undercutting Vettel even though he is behind, he and his race engineer are now allowed to do this on precedent.

It will be handy many times in future races for the crew of #2.

they were doing that in the past (with both of them) when the gap was big enough and the second driver was threatened from behind.

[One]

Must watch "Talk from Hangar 7" on Red Bull's "Servus TV" channel tonight, they always have reports and interviews about the race.

Interesting read. I do think that it is more or less problem that are casted to teams rather than their (one of the) two drivers.
Webber will follow the team order just because he believes that the team will give him the best possible option for him and the team to race.


What I mean to say is that the team is operating to maximize the potential. This should be of benefit to the whole team including the drivers. While Seb had none issue yesterday, this does not mean that he will not have issue at the last race that Seb has no engine available to fight championship against, say Kimi.

Ground 1.
I am rather sure that the Red Bull team will still steam anything from Webber's car to Seb's if it may help Seb to win the tile this year, but vis-a-vis will NEVER be true, seeing from their past operation. There is a clear motrivation given to Mark that he will NEVER be the WDC at Red Bull. iF mARK IS STILL WILLING TO, HE SHOULD MOVE RIGHT NOW. (but obviously it is not possible). So as the consequence there will be instable operation waiting for Red Bull Team.

Ground 2.
The team's decision will be many more times ignored by Seb and the Head of the team Helmut Marko will allow Seb to do whatever he wishes to do. So the team operation is now confronting that they are doing all the works for nothing but make Seb the champion. I think this has been clear from many years back.

Effects:
1.
So far as Christian Horner, he will stay on helm and act as employee and implement this nasty No.1 - No.2 management by lying to the world that Red Bull has no clear No.1 driver. This is a false statement, and he will continue to do it, and the fan will just stupidly follow and believe it and keep on discussing about it.

2.
Adrian Newey will just do the same and be as the designer of the multiple WCC/WDC championship car.

3.
Renault will not care.

4.
Webber has lost everything and will leave the sport in two or max three years time. Truly there is no team where Webber should go and act as the No.1.


Coinsequence 1
In case if Webber ignore the team order, there is no gain in doing so unless he is clearly winning the title. Webber gets all **** KERS every race and Webber gets all the mal funcitoning parts from the Seb's car already. It is written on the wall that Webber is being used to make Seb the champion.

Consequence 2.
Seb will be the candidate for WDC yet again.

I do hope that the for once, the Right Guy wins, that is Webber and beat Sebastian Vettel's WRONG DOING and prove to the world that the RIGHT GUY CAN WIN.

Yet that is just a dream, isn't it? Money wins in formula 1 in the current regime. Solution? Purge Bernie.

[Kelateboy]

Webber will obey it and I'm sure the team will enforce that with golden handcuffs.

Did he obey the hold station order at Silverstone in 2011?

[Go_Go]

Multi 21 ???
What does it means?

[KnucklesAgain]

Multi 21 ???
What does it means?

http://bit.ly/ZOERIk

[choyothe]

they were doing that in the past (with both of them) when the gap was big enough and the second driver was threatened from behind.

Yup, countless times in 2011/2012 especially with Vettel in front. Don't expect V8 Fireworks to answer though.

[KTF1]

There shouldn't even be team orders, drivers should be allowed to race each other to the end rather than have to obey those orders. It ruins races, like in Germany 2010. I'm not condoning what Vettel did, I do think it was very stupid to potentially jeopardise his and Webber's race, I'm just against the whole idea of team orders.