74 replies to this topic

[choyothe]

I know this forum wishes to do nothing else but bash Vettel at the moment but didn't anyone else feel disgusted with this? I can understand team orders when the leading driver for the championship is established long into the season but I really didn't feel this was appropriate at this stage. Yes, there's the tires but surely the teams can allow the drivers to fight for the win/podium in a fair way while reminding them to get to the finish without hitting the cliff?

I dunno, felt pretty cheap to me.

[TheUltimateWorrier]

No, not really. Ferrari and Force India employed team orders in race #1 .

[kosmos]

I personally don't understand the Merc team orders, are they going to sell more cars because Hamilton got a podium?.

[sheepgobba]

No, not really. Ferrari and Force India employed team orders in race #1 .

Yeah.... Ferrari came out on the Radio and told Massa to hold station...

[SpaMaster]

Team order to benefit one driver and team order that is neutral to both drivers are entirely different. There are some teams you know they would do invariably what. But that's not what Red Bull did. That saiid Red Bull's drivers are not the sort that would "obey" their team. They never have, they never will. Webber has done it before. Vettel has done it today. Quite a team this is.

[Bloggsworth]

Brawn was clear and concise. The team had underfuelled Hamilton's car and had told him to slow down to conserve what he had, the last stops were done and dusted, and team standing orders that, special circumstances aside, the cars would finish in that order. This was explained to Rosberg, and being honourable, he accepted and complied. Hamilton expressed disappointment for Rosberg's situation, and there could be no doubt that the expression was genuine. There will be no resentment, there will be no mistrust, there will be sympathy from all concerned for Rosberg, and the team will move forward in harmony, and Rosberg will get his day in the sun at Hamilton's expense one day - Webber will never ever let Vettel by again, and will overtake Vettel at risk to both of them, this is Vettel's legacy to his team...

[NotSoSilentBob]

There were no RBR team orders in place until after the final stops. Which Vettel ignored.

Vettel managed to get himself out of P1 early in the race all by himself. He chose when to dump his inters, no one was holding a gun to his head. After that, Webber was the lead driver and got the lead driver calls, as per RBR policy.

Your insistence that somehow RBR ****ed over Vettel in Malaysia is comical. If anything, Webber was screwed over TWICE! Once in qualifying, once in the race.

[slmk]

I personally don't understand the Merc team orders, are they going to sell more cars because Hamilton got a podium?.

Lewis was ahead in the race AND in the WDC standings. You gotta play the long game.

[thomin]

Webber will never ever let Vettel by again, and will overtake Vettel at risk to both of them, this is Vettel's legacy to his team...

But that's what Webber always did. Think about last year's season final, or this incident in 2011:
http://edition.cnn.c...ttel/index.html

[tarmac]

"Maintain position" is really standard after last stops almost every team

[garoidb]

I know this forum wishes to do nothing else but bash Vettel at the moment but didn't anyone else feel disgusted with this? I can understand team orders when the leading driver for the championship is established long into the season but I really didn't feel this was appropriate at this stage. Yes, there's the tires but surely the teams can allow the drivers to fight for the win/podium in a fair way while reminding them to get to the finish without hitting the cliff?

I dunno, felt pretty cheap to me.

The astonishing hypocrisy from Red Bull in the past can now be seen, but presumably we won't hear any more of it.

[aray]

i don't mind team orders if it serves the greater/long term purpose....

[Seanspeed]

No. But I do love how there's some people that would have blasted Ferrari for this endlessly and relentlessly have suddenly switched their tune.

@tarmac - It used to be. But now with no refueling and these tires, a lot of strategies are built to be better at the end of the race. That whole 'hold station' thing we saw back in 2010 and before is kind of out the window now.

[F1EC]

I know this forum wishes to do nothing else but bash Vettel at the moment but didn't anyone else feel disgusted with this?

Nope.

[sheepgobba]

No. But I do love how there's some people that would have blasted Ferrari for this endlessly and relentlessly have suddenly switched their tune.

@tarmac - It used to be. But now with no refueling and these tires, a lot of strategies are built to be better at the end of the race. That whole 'hold station' thing we saw back in 2010 and before is kind of out the window now.

Agreed.

[kosmos]

Lewis was ahead in the race AND in the WDC standings. You gotta play the long game.

So Rosberg it's doomed for the whole season because he had a DNF that was not his fault.

[SpaMaster]

Brawn was clear and concise. The team had underfuelled Hamilton's car and had told him to slow down to conserve what he had, the last stops were done and dusted, and team standing orders that, special circumstances aside, the cars would finish in that order. This was explained to Rosberg, and being honourable, he accepted and complied. Hamilton expressed disappointment for Rosberg's situation, and there could be no doubt that the expression was genuine. There will be no resentment, there will be no mistrust, there will be sympathy from all concerned for Rosberg, and the team will move forward in harmony, and Rosberg will get his day in the sun at Hamilton's expense one day - Webber will never ever let Vettel by again, and will overtake Vettel at risk to both of them, this is Vettel's legacy to his team...

Sorry there is no point blaming Vettel alone for this. Webber set the precedent earlier when he tried to pass Vettel against team orders. The only difference was he couldn't. Vettel defended robustly. Here Webber couldn't. So the legacy goes back to Webber some time back. And that in turn goes back to Red Bull because when there was mega-burst after the first incident at Turkey, Red Bull did not support Webber, let Marko loose talk. This infuriated Webber to go his own rogue ways. Red Bull is the first party to be blamed for this, and it is Red Bull legacy first and foremost.

[LiJu914]

The astonishing hypocrisy from Red Bull in the past can now be seen, but presumably we won't hear any more of it.

Now? The exact same thing happened already two years ago. And i think already back then many people said they were hypocritical - which is fair enough even though i still don´t quite understand that, coz their famous "We don´t use team orders"-PR after Hockenheim 2010 was just in the context of drivers swapping places.

Edited by LiJu914, 24 March 2013 - 15:01.

[choyothe]

Brawn was clear and concise. The team had underfuelled Hamilton's car and had told him to slow down to conserve what he had, the last stops were done and dusted, and team standing orders that, special circumstances aside, the cars would finish in that order. This was explained to Rosberg, and being honourable, he accepted and complied. Hamilton expressed disappointment for Rosberg's situation, and there could be no doubt that the expression was genuine. There will be no resentment, there will be no mistrust, there will be sympathy from all concerned for Rosberg, and the team will move forward in harmony, and Rosberg will get his day in the sun at Hamilton's expense one day - Webber will never ever let Vettel by again, and will overtake Vettel at risk to both of them, this is Vettel's legacy to his team...

Okay, this is new to me, I thought Hamilton had used too much fuel in chasing the RB's.

[Arry2k]

No. But I do love how there's some people that would have blasted Ferrari for this endlessly and relentlessly have suddenly switched their tune.

This.

[DrProzac]

I can't say that I'm happy..

I can understand why a team prefers a 1-2 finish (or 3-4) than their two drivers crashing out, but still it shouldn't be like this.

Edited by DrProzac, 24 March 2013 - 15:05.

[Fastcake]

No. But I do love how there's some people that would have blasted Ferrari for this endlessly and relentlessly have suddenly switched their tune.

For the record, I would of blasted Ferrari for this and I'm also blasting Red Bull for it ;)

[speednerd]

No. But I do love how there's some people that would have blasted Ferrari for this endlessly and relentlessly have suddenly switched their tune.

Actually, people blast Ferrari because they have a clear, outspoken No. 1 driver policy, and employ team orders to help Alonso. There is no evidence that RB or Mercedes would not give the same orders if the other driver was leading the race.


Can you imagine Ferrari giving a team-order to hold position if Massa was leading Alonso

[Seanspeed]

Actually, people blast Ferrari because they have a clear, outspoken No. 1 driver policy, and employ team orders to help Alonso.

Only when one driver is out of the title fight.

For the record, I would of blasted Ferrari for this and I'm also blasting Red Bull for it ;)

Yea, there's definitely plenty of people being consistent, too. Good on ya!

Edited by Seanspeed, 24 March 2013 - 15:11.

[2ms]

In any case, the faster driver won the race and perhaps Red Bull will be less likely to issue team orders in the future. In other words, in the case of Red Bull, though there were team orders, the results were the same as if it hadn't happened.

[speednerd]

For the record, I would of blasted Ferrari for this and I'm also blasting Red Bull for it ;)

Don't forget Mercedes

[garoidb]

Now? The exact same thing happened already two years ago. And i think already back then many people said they were hypocritical - which is fair enough even though i still don´t quite understand that, coz their famous "We don´t use team orders"-PR after Hockenheim 2010 was just in the context of drivers swapping places.

They didn't manage to contain the PR implosion this time, so the hypocrisy is bare to see.

[RichardF1fan]

nope, its just a side effect of no refueling and cheese tyres. If I ran a team I would do the same.

[DanicaFan]

My thread got locked but as I was saying...these team orders are a complete joke and and embarassment to F1 and racing in general. If I was Sebastian, I would of won the race too but I would not have apologized for it. If I got booted, so be it, I would go to Indycar or NASCAR where the real racing is.

How many more races have been fixed or will be is the big question now.

[2ms]

I can't say that I'm happy..

I can understand why a team prefers a 1-2 finish (or 3-4) than their two drivers crashing out, but still it shouldn't be like this.

What it should be is that the teammates should be sensible enough to not take excessive risks when racing each other (eg Hamilton and Button). Instead, at Red Bull, they have two aggressive drivers -- Vettel in the sense like Senna always wanting to win and Webber in the sense of a bulldog who almost would prefer to crash than to relinquish a position.

They have crashed before for this reason and they will crash again. Someone like Vettel is never going to accept being intimidated into giving a teammate who is slower a win, and someone like Webber will never accept being passed for a win.

[SunnyENTP]

Okay, this is new to me, I thought Hamilton had used too much fuel in chasing the RB's.

How can you use too much fuel? You can only use what they gave you. Merc put in the fuel based on their calculations. Its their fault for under-fueling him by not taking into account Lewis would have to go flat out. Why does Lewis have to be punished for their mistake. The team owed it to him.

[northanmonkee]

Brawn was clear and concise. The team had underfuelled Hamilton's car and had told him to slow down to conserve what he had, the last stops were done and dusted, and team standing orders that, special circumstances aside, the cars would finish in that order. This was explained to Rosberg, and being honourable, he accepted and complied. Hamilton expressed disappointment for Rosberg's situation, and there could be no doubt that the expression was genuine. There will be no resentment, there will be no mistrust, there will be sympathy from all concerned for Rosberg, and the team will move forward in harmony, and Rosberg will get his day in the sun at Hamilton's expense one day - Webber will never ever let Vettel by again, and will overtake Vettel at risk to both of them, this is Vettel's legacy to his team...

[discover23]

Team orders are part of f1 an they are now legal.
Deal with it...
Not that I agree with that but it is what it is.

Edited by discover23, 24 March 2013 - 15:29.

[DanicaFan]

What it should be is that the teammates should be sensible enough to not take excessive risks when racing each other (eg Hamilton and Button). Instead, at Red Bull, they have two aggressive drivers -- Vettel in the sense like Senna always wanting to win and Webber in the sense of a bulldog who almost would prefer to crash than to relinquish a position.

They have crashed before for this reason and they will crash again. Someone like Vettel is never going to accept being intimidated into giving a teammate who is slower a win, and someone like Webber will never accept being passed for a win.

Webber better get used to the fact of getting passed and losing the race.....It's called racing! There are risk involved. If he cant get that concept, he better find another sport. lol

[choyothe]

For the record, I would of blasted Ferrari for this and I'm also blasting Red Bull for it ;)

And Mercedes?

[Risil]

Webber better get used to the fact of getting passed and losing the race.....It's called racing! There are risk involved. If he cant get that concept, he better find another sport. lol

Are you unaware of the reason why Red Bull asked their drivers not to race, or are you ignoring it? The team didn't believe Vettel and Webber had enough fuel/tyre life to race to the end.

It seems that at Silverstone in 2011 the drivers were ordered to hold position so they wouldn't crash into each other (Webber ignored that team order), but given the situation this time round it was a reasonable decision on Horner and Newey's part.

If you disagree with Pirelli providing tyres that make teams worried about letting their drivers race each other, there's a well-populated thread for that. If you disagree with teams short-fuelling their drivers and then sometimes having them unable to complete the race without backing off, I don't know. The teams are allowed to put as much fuel in their cars as they like.

Edited by Risil, 24 March 2013 - 15:34.

[TheUltimateWorrier]

How many more races have been fixed or will be is the big question now.

I have no trouble with team orders like today.

The only team orders I take an exception to are inter-team orders, like Ferrari ordering Sauber to let them through and the same with Red Bull and Toro Rosso. No other sport fixes results like this. It's like if the Man City owners decided to buy Everton, so the latter would be beaten both times, gifting Man City six easy points.

[S3baman]

I know this forum wishes to do nothing else but bash Vettel at the moment but didn't anyone else feel disgusted with this? I can understand team orders when the leading driver for the championship is established long into the season but I really didn't feel this was appropriate at this stage. Yes, there's the tires but surely the teams can allow the drivers to fight for the win/podium in a fair way while reminding them to get to the finish without hitting the cliff?

I dunno, felt pretty cheap to me.

Teams have been employing team orders for the last stint for many many years, even in the first race of the season. RB and Macca are quite open about letting their drivers fight until the last pit stop. They feel that whoever is in front after deserves to keep the place. I have no problems with that.

[ivand911]

Okay, this is new to me, I thought Hamilton had used too much fuel in chasing the RB's.

There isn't official confirmation Lewis was under-fueled comparing to Nico. Only wishful thinking. Both cars have same fuel. If someone have link about under-fueling, let post it here. Lewis said that he used more fuel.
http://www.yallaf1.c...-hold-position/

Sepang, Sunday– Ross: “We've got to concentrate on keeping up the pace of development but we can take pride in achieving our first podium of the season”
Lewis and Nico finished the 2013 PETRONAS Malaysia Grand Prix in third and fourth places today.
Lewis scored his 50th Formula One podium this afternoon and his first for the team. He ran a four-stop strategy, stopping on laps 7, 21, 30 and 41, using intermediate/option/option/prime/option.
Nico also made four stops on laps 8, 22, 31 and 42, with the same tyre usage strategy. The team scored 27 points today, the most on a single weekend since the Silver Arrows returned to Formula One in 2010.
Ross feels that this weekend was “another step in the right direction for the team. We had a pretty good car today, certainly on the option tyres it was very good, and the team made the right calls on strategy. On the third set of dry tyres, the hard compound, we didn't quite have the balance and that's where we fell back.
We had a heavier than expected fuel consumption during the race and as we got towards the end, we had to take some measures to ensure that both cars finished. We asked Lewis and Nico to hold position and both drivers respected that. Whilst it was tough for Nico and I fully expect him to be disappointed, we have now got a car we can fight with and that there will be plenty more opportunities to achieve good results this season.
We've got to concentrate on keeping up the pace of development but we can take pride in achieving our first podium of the season and my thanks to everyone here and back at base for their commitment and hard work.”

For Toto, “we achieved a very good result for the team this weekend and to score some solid points is very satisfying. We have continued to show an upward performance trend although there is still work for us to do to close the gap to the leading cars even further.
Both Lewis and Nico both drove extremely well today. Tough decisions have to be made sometimes and it was important for us that both cars finished the race and we scored some solid points.
Congratulations to everyone here at the track, and back at Brackley and Brixworth for our first podium of the season, and we will keep pushing hard to make sure that more will follow.”

http://www.mercedes-...m-of-the-season

Higher fuel consumption doesn't mean under-fueling(error).

Edited by ivand911, 24 March 2013 - 15:41.

[S3baman]

Brawn was clear and concise. The team had underfuelled Hamilton's car and had told him to slow down to conserve what he had, the last stops were done and dusted, and team standing orders that, special circumstances aside, the cars would finish in that order. This was explained to Rosberg, and being honourable, he accepted and complied. Hamilton expressed disappointment for Rosberg's situation, and there could be no doubt that the expression was genuine. There will be no resentment, there will be no mistrust, there will be sympathy from all concerned for Rosberg, and the team will move forward in harmony, and Rosberg will get his day in the sun at Hamilton's expense one day - Webber will never ever let Vettel by again, and will overtake Vettel at risk to both of them, this is Vettel's legacy to his team...

Seeing Webber reaction I immediately knew that this signifies the end of his "good" relationship with Seb. From now on, I expect him to push Vettel like any other racing driver. Him saying that surfing for 3 weeks might not be enough medicine clearly points to a "gloves are off" situation. I for one, can't wait to see what comes next.

[Group B]

I want to see these guys racing. Team orders in the last few races are one thing, but the way it's going we'll soon have team mates forbidden to race each other at all; whoever leads into the first corner must be first across the line. Today saw the first four drivers all pissed off or getting whined at today, which is no way to end a GP, but it may become a common sight if these draconian orders continue.

[Bruce]

If this were Ferrari/Alonso/Massa, there would be hell to pay. End of story.

[SpaMaster]

If this were Ferrari/Alonso/Massa, there would be hell to pay. End of story.

But if it were Ferrari/Massa/Alonso, it would be business as usual.

[choyothe]

Seeing Webber reaction I immediately knew that this signifies the end of his "good" relationship with Seb. From now on, I expect him to push Vettel like any other racing driver. Him saying that surfing for 3 weeks might not be enough medicine clearly points to a "gloves are off" situation. I for one, can't wait to see what comes next.

Sorry, but when has Webber not pushed Vettel like any other driver, if not more? I have never seen him be "a good teammate" to Vettel, except for one moment of letting him past in Brazil 2012, and even in that race he had his share of questionable moves towards Vettel.

[Bruce]

But if it were Ferrari/Massa/Alonso, it would be business as usual.

Well - it appears to be business as usual at Mercedes now - looks like Lewis has the contract he needs - "Rosberg is faster - don't worry - we'll keep him behind".

Lewis can shed all the scrocodile tears he wants (Vettel too) but what they wanted was the position - and they got it.

[fatd]

Seeing Webber reaction I immediately knew that this signifies the end of his "good" relationship with Seb. From now on, I expect him to push Vettel like any other racing driver. Him saying that surfing for 3 weeks might not be enough medicine clearly points to a "gloves are off" situation. I for one, can't wait to see what comes next.

Yeah I thought the same, but wouldn't be surprised if this intense build-up will only lead us into "business as usual" in 3 weeks time..

[Rurouni]

I think what Mercs do is more despicable than what RB do (provided that RB really told both driver to keep position and there wasn't a conspiracy inside the team to move Vettel ahead of Webber).
My reasoning is that Rosberg is clearly faster at that stage and he should be allowed to overtake Hamilton. At RB, both were being told to keep position but apparently Vettel ignore it, thus giving him an unfair advantage over Webber.
Basically, the Mercs one is the team (Brawn's) fault, but the RB one is Vettel's fault.

I don't mind team order if it wouldn't give much advantage to one of the driver or if the chances of one driver to win the WDC is big and the other one is very slim.

There is (almost) zero reason why Mercs wouldn't let Rosberg pass (Rosberg could easily pass Hamilton without any drama using DRS while Hamilton in fuel saving mode), and there's a good reason for RB to keep position (they were clear at the front, they have high degradation thus fighting would be bad for them not to mention the risk of colliding with each other, and they can save the machine life).

The only reason I can think off for Mercs decision is that they don't want to provoke Hamilton. If they let Rosberg to overtake Hamilton, there is a chance that Hamilton might retaliate and ignore fuel saving thus Mercs would only finished with one car.
Some people arguing that Mercs underfueled Hamilton, thus making the team order right. Of course I don't really know if the underfuel thing was right or not, but my answer to this (assuming that it's right) is that they shouldn't sacrifice Rosberg for that. It should be between Hamilton and the team. So now Rosberg was sacrificed for the team fault? that's so wrong.

So back to the question in the title.. do I mad at RB/Merc?
I'm mad at Merc, but not so much at RB. If I'm RB boss, then I would let them race each other for a couple of laps but keep position for the last few laps (how many laps? I don't know, depends on the calculation).

Edited by Rurouni, 24 March 2013 - 15:57.

[jerriy]

"Maintain position" is really standard after last stops almost every team

That is anti sport.

[Fastcake]

And Mercedes?

Yes, and Mercedes. And McLaren for that matter, as I'm sure many know I'm their fan.

I do think Mercedes have much better communication within the team, and even though I would rather of seen Rosberg and Hamilton fight, I do have more respect for Rosberg discussing the situation with Ross Brawn then deciding not to fight, rather than doing what Vettel did in shouting down the radio then not even informing the team he was going for it.

[discover23]

I know team orders always existed in F1, but this one was really stupid denying a podium to the faster driver in the SECOND race of the season for the benefit of his teammate...