74 replies to this topic

[Wolf]

I do0n't like team orders- but at least nobody was told to make way for #1, as had been the case with Ferrari earlier... I can understand RB's call (their #2 was in front and wanted to save themselves aggravation of drivers duking it out on the trach with heaps of points to lose), while Merc's decision makes less sense, esp. since Ham was not underfuelled but wasted his way into trouble). I could be more understanding of Rosberg bullying his way past Hamilton than of what Vettel did. In the net result, I'd say both Merc drivers made the most of their team's call (Ham taking the gift, but acknowledging it, and Nico making sure it was noted over the radio that he was held back), whereas I'd say both RB drivers screwed up their situation (Vettel getting into serious trouble with the whole team, and Webber being too hot-headed to have taken real advantage of it like Rosberg did; instead he moaned about Vettel being protected once again- as if he was blaming the team)...

Edited by Wolf, 24 March 2013 - 16:16.

[Bloggsworth]

No. But I do love how there's some people that would have blasted Ferrari for this endlessly and relentlessly have suddenly switched their tune.

Apples and oranges mate. Vettel was quite clearly told to stay behind, that is team orders and no-one is complaining, but Vettel broke a trust, which is a whole different ball game...

[Sausage]

Well I'm always pro-team orders in the championship case (as in teams are allowed to give them, not that drivers should obey them), it makes no sense to not help out the driver that can be champion, but honestly you can't often say oh let's wait for it a little longer. The season has started, these aren't warm-up races. Points now are worth just as much as those from later races. The RB order was more of an anti-championship move also. I think both can be filed under "don't you dare crash while we are in a great position"- wich honestly happened since ancient times and also plenty enough during the ban.

[jstrains]

What a comedian this Helmut Marko

[mtojay]

i ask myself is how fernando would have reacted if he would have been in the same position that sebastian was today.
the scuderia would never ever tell fernando to maintain his position and not to attack massa in the second race of championship.

sebastian outclassed his teammate completely in the last 3 years, why would he not be allowed to use his skills to win a race only because the first guy is in the same team? i dont get it.
none of the legends of the last centurys would have accepted such a team order. (name whoever you like of the big guys. michael, ayrton, alain or whoever)

imagine senna would be told 5 laps before the end of the race he would not be allowed to fight for first place with alain

i personally think ayrton would go complete nuts if he could see which rules "destroy" the f1 these days.

[pdac]

If team orders are allowed (which they are), the only team order should be to the guy in front to tell him that he's the slower one and should let his teammate past. There is no other reason for a team to order anything else.

[Bruce]

i ask myself is how fernando would have reacted if he would have been in the same position that sebastian was today.
the scuderia would never ever tell fernando to maintain his position and not to attack massa in the second race of championship.

sebastian outclassed his teammate completely in the last 3 years, why would he not be allowed to use his skills to win a race only because the first guy is in the same team? i dont get it.
none of the legends of the last centurys would have accepted such a team order. (name whoever you like of the big guys. michael, ayrton, alain or whoever)

imagine senna would be told 5 laps before the end of the race he would not be allowed to fight for first place with alain

i personally think ayrton would go complete nuts if he could see which rules "destroy" the f1 these days.

Silly comment. These orders have been "on" for time immemorial. In 1982 Gilles Villeneuve was leading the San marino Gp at Imola from his team mate, Didier Pironi - I'll leave you to look up the rest. Suffice it to say that it doesn't take that much effort to pass a team-mate who has been told to slow down and conserve.

[apoka]

So Rosberg it's doomed for the whole season because he had a DNF that was not his fault.

If Merc goes strictly by WDC standings, then yes. It might have costed them a few points today.

Edited by apoka, 24 March 2013 - 16:57.

[mtojay]

Silly comment. These orders have been "on" for time immemorial. In 1982 Gilles Villeneuve was leading the San marino Gp at Imola from his team mate, Didier Pironi - I'll leave you to look up the rest. Suffice it to say that it doesn't take that much effort to pass a team-mate who has been told to slow down and conserve.

even if there have been times where this has happened i still think the great ones would have never let that happened or accepted such an order.

show me an example where senna or schumacher have accepted such a team order. Hands down, you as an alonso fan, do you honestly think fernando would be cool with this happening to him in the second race of the season with the slower teammate (massa) in front of him? If yes, i dont believe you. That would not happen.

[2ms]

I am not surprise to see people who aren't old-time F1 lovers being astonished by what we saw in the top two teams today. Especially from Ross Brawn. I actually wish Rosberg had done what Vettel did to send a message that would reduce this kind of thing's recurrence.

In any other sport it frankly would be considered Results Fixing. In other words, corruption. I'm not saying that is absolutely what it is. But anyone who is new to F1 will naturally have a very adverse reaction to it.

Most people think of sports as being contests where the purpose is to find out who the best contestant is (winner) and there are high principles etc. More like the olympics are wtvr.

But F1 is more entertainment like professional wrestling or something. So when people expect olympics but instead realize they are watching professional wrestling, it's a very negative shock for them.

I do think F1 will be a lot more successful if they can prevent things like what happened today from happening in the future. Otherwise, potential new viewers will have negative reactions every time. To some it makes it all a giant farce, basically. Even if F1 really is all a big farce, we still should try to hide it for the purpose of the sport being considered a real sport.

[Mr2s]

If team orders are allowed (which they are), the only team order should be to the guy in front to tell him that he's the slower one and should let his teammate past. There is no other reason for a team to order anything else.

Exactly, and its a real shame people are mixing up the two types of team order with bitter references to Germany 2010.

Sadly the rules are to blame. Saving engines and tyres and not putting enough fuel in the cars, are not the balls out racing we should expect from super quick ,ex kart racing kids.

[nosecone]

to summarize the plot of today it is bad to don't obey team orders but it is even as bad to obey team orders. Right?
And it would be bad as well if they had crashed

[H2H]

What a comedian this Helmut Marko

He sadly can not touch Alonso in this regard...

I have been ok with 'Hold position' orders in the last laps pretty much since I watch F1, be it race 1 or 17.

[ZooL]

Hold station/Maintain Position is not team orders.

Edited by ZooL, 24 March 2013 - 18:02.

[Longtimefan]

Hold station/Maintain Position is not team orders.

ok, I've heard it all now.

[rijole1]

Ok, team orders are a part of the game, even if I don't like it.
But using them already in the 1st and 2nd race of the season just spoils the excitement.

[One]

Ok, team orders are a part of the game, even if I don't like it.
But using them already in the 1st and 2nd race of the season just spoils the excitement.

Agreed.

But let me say,... It has been like this in the past. I am more or less surprised that Rubens gave his position to Michael like as if he had hole on his head. This was the result of Ferrari under Toady had this contract and the lawyers waiting Rubens at the garage and ready to give him legal sanctions if Rubens did not did not obey.

[Vermont]

But if it were Ferrari/Massa/Alonso, it would be business as usual.

No, because up until recently, Massa was not even within half a lap of Alonso. Maybe you are confusing the Spaniard with a german driver with the red helmet.....

[Vermont]

That is anti sport.

That is called intelligence. In 2007, McLaren had the best car, 2 top drivers, but Kimi Raikkonen on Ferrari won the WDC because Ron Dennis failed to figure this one out

[Vermont]

Hold station/Maintain Position is not team orders.

Yes, they are team orders, pretty blatant, and quite intelligent too. If I have 2 drivers 1-2 or 3-4, the last thing I want is to see the two giving me a 50% of getting a DNF-DNF. They are team orders, smart team orders. And they are legal. Everybody get off your purity soap box, none of you is a holy Mary in his daily life but then you expect it from F1. How ludicrous

[Vermont]

i ask myself is how fernando would have reacted if he would have been in the same position that sebastian was today.
the scuderia would never ever tell fernando to maintain his position and not to attack massa in the second race of championship.

sebastian outclassed his teammate completely in the last 3 years, why would he not be allowed to use his skills to win a race only because the first guy is in the same team? i dont get it.
none of the legends of the last centurys would have accepted such a team order. (name whoever you like of the big guys. michael, ayrton, alain or whoever)

imagine senna would be told 5 laps before the end of the race he would not be allowed to fight for first place with alain

i personally think ayrton would go complete nuts if he could see which rules "destroy" the f1 these days.

Use his skill? you mean using your full engine against a trusting teammate who has revved his engine down? that must be a great skill to have.....

none of the legends....mmmhh, you've been watching F1 for 3 years? Michael Schumacher respected team orders to help Eddie Irvine in 1999. Your theory of supporting dishonorable behavior just doesn't hold it

Edited by Vermont, 25 March 2013 - 02:00.

[weston]

No, because up until recently, Massa was not even within half a lap of Alonso. Maybe you are confusing the Spaniard with a german driver with the red helmet.....

Boy, slow down a bit.
Nobody changed a gearbox in Vettel's or Webber's car and there is no well planned crashed at turn 17.

[30ft penguin]

I am not surprise to see people who aren't old-time F1 lovers being astonished by what we saw in the top two teams today. Especially from Ross Brawn. I actually wish Rosberg had done what Vettel did to send a message that would reduce this kind of thing's recurrence.

In any other sport it frankly would be considered Results Fixing. In other words, corruption. I'm not saying that is absolutely what it is. But anyone who is new to F1 will naturally have a very adverse reaction to it.

Most people think of sports as being contests where the purpose is to find out who the best contestant is (winner) and there are high principles etc. More like the olympics are wtvr.

But F1 is more entertainment like professional wrestling or something. So when people expect olympics but instead realize they are watching professional wrestling, it's a very negative shock for them.

That's not really it. The difference is that in other sports you only have individual participants compete against each other, while here in F1 you also heave TEAMS which compete against each other. Not only the individual drivers have their championship, but also the team. So you have situations where, to maximize the total sum of points (individual driver points plus team points), it is in the best interest of the team to tell a driver "we know you want to overtake that guy now, but we feel it would be too big a risk to let you guys both drive all out right now, both because of the chance of a crash and because it could mean potential problems with the car (higher revs, more fuel consumption, ...) which could mean one or both of you might not finish, or at the very least cause problems with the engine in the next race." That has nothing to do with "entertainment", it is strategic thinking. Today, it did not matter at all for the team who would get 3rd and 4th place, because the total sum of points would have been the same. But what DID matter was to actually GET 3rd and 4th place. And the Mercedes team was worried that one or both drivers might drop out of the race, had they been allowed to fight each other. I don't like this decision, either (I want to see Rosberg beat Hamilton after all), but I can understand it.

Consider professional cycling - there you also have teams, and the individuals within a team are not equal at all, there are also "team orders" where one guy might be ordered to sacrifice his race to help another guy (e.g. by riding in front to give the other guy slipstream, etc.).

[Vermont]

Boy, slow down a bit.
Nobody changed a gearbox in Vettel's or Webber's car and there is no well planned crashed at turn 17.

I have no idea of what you are talking about. Most likely neither do you

Edited by Vermont, 25 March 2013 - 02:41.

[Astro]

I know this forum wishes to do nothing else but bash Vettel at the moment but didn't anyone else feel disgusted with this? I can understand team orders when the leading driver for the championship is established long into the season but I really didn't feel this was appropriate at this stage. Yes, there's the tires but surely the teams can allow the drivers to fight for the win/podium in a fair way while reminding them to get to the finish without hitting the cliff?

I dunno, felt pretty cheap to me.

It depends how do you want to see motor racing. For the fans, they are usually more interested about drivers. I am. But drivers are only 2 among hundreds of people working on these cars as well as people investing serious dole every year to see their cars taking a maximum amount of points each race, not his drivers. From that perspective, what Mercedes did is logical and sensible. Red Bull tried it unsuccessfully because Vettel decided to ignore the orders from the team.

It has been like that since the first days of Formula 1. And I know many people will never want to accept that. In which case, try to find few hundred millions from somewhere and create your own racing team, let's see how well it seats with you when your two drivers under your paycheck crash against each other and bring a couple of scrapped cars, only because they cannot put their egos aside for the good of all people (owners, engineers, engineers, engineers, more engineers, etc.) who are using their time, talent, and/or money so their cars can win races.

To keep them in their bubbles, teams sometimes are patronizing towards their fan base. See for example the comments from Webber regarding team orders during the supposed ban:

"Yeah, we've had a few," said Webber, who has often spoken of how he would never give up a win for anyone. "Even back in the days when it was probably not that acceptable to do [when team orders were banned]."

Andrew Benson quoting Webber, BBC.

Edited by Astro, 25 March 2013 - 04:57.