191 replies to this topic

[NotSoSilentBob]

I think Red Bull handled the situation badly at the race, they shouldn't have made that war public and kept it internal.... that counts for Mark & Seb... Wash your dirty laundry behind closed doors....

Where Vettel would get a 'naughty, naughty boy' slap on the arse from Horner and a wink from Marko and that's the end of it?

Sorry, but I dont think you appreciate the gravitas of what Vettel did yesterday. If Webber quits - and I think there's a chance of that - Vettel's whole campaign for a 4th WDC and RBR's shot at a 4th WCC will be in serious jeopardy.

[NotSoSilentBob]

Two wrongs do not make it right.

I look forward to your heartfelt concern next time Webber has a slow stop. Or his KERS fails.

[Realyn]

Uhhh, the longer you go into the race you have less fuel, understand? lol at all these Vettel fans actually defending him with a straight face. Pack of schoolboys.

The guy I quoted said that MW did not set fastest laps when he was battling SV. I proved him wrong.

Edited by Mandzipop, 25 March 2013 - 14:46.
Do you have some kind of mental problems?

[Sin]

Where Vettel would get a 'naughty, naughty boy' slap on the arse from Horner and a wink from Marko and that's the end of it?

Sorry, but I dont think you appreciate the gravitas of what Vettel did yesterday. If Webber quits - and I think there's a chance of that - Vettel's whole campaign for a 4th WDC and RBR's shot at a 4th WCC will be in serious jeopardy.

there are better drivers than Webber in the midfield that would love to take a new seat.... Hülkenberg being one example... or Sutil... Bianchi even tho its improbable with his Ferrari connections... hell there are even some good drivers not in F1 without a seat... like Kamui Kobayashi, Nick Heidfeld, etc.

Edited by Sin, 25 March 2013 - 08:55.

[NotSoSilentBob]

yeah I was wondering if all that may lead to Vettel leaving the team or at least loosing his passion and fun... since I really feel he is treated unfairly

Out of interest, how are the German speaking media reporting this event? The english speaking media - at least in the US, UK, and Australia - are pretty damming towards Vettel. And aside from a section of drunk bogans at the Grand Prix, Vettel's generally very well respected in Australia so I dont think it's essentially nationalistic.

[Diablobb81]

Sorry, but I dont think you appreciate the gravitas of what Vettel did yesterday. If Webber quits - and I think there's a chance of that - Vettel's whole campaign for a 4th WDC and RBR's shot at a 4th WCC will be in serious jeopardy.

You mean like the start in Brazil put Vettel's title in jeopardy. Thank God Mark was there to help him.

[NotSoSilentBob]

there are better drivers than Webber in the midfield that would love to take a new seat.... Hülkenberg being one example... or Sutil... Bianchi even tho its improbable with his Ferrari connections... hell there are even some good drivers not in F1 without a seat...

Again, you fail to see why Webber''s re-signed year after year.

Adrian Newey.

Webber's basically the setup man for Vettel. Maybe less so nowadays, but he's still the guy they turn to, to develop the car.

[gillesthegenius]

Yesterday gave Sebs doubters more ammo if anything.

You can be a champion but becoming a great is something different entirely, this just further tarnishes Sebs potential legacy IMO.

Oh really? So what does Seb have to do to become a great in your eyes? Punt his main championship rival out of the track in the very first corner of a race where cars storming in means that his life could be endangered?

Edited by gillesthegenius, 25 March 2013 - 09:14.

[Diablobb81]

Again, you fail to see why Webber''s re-signed year after year.

Adrian Newey.

Webber's basically the setup man for Vettel. Maybe less so nowadays, but he's still the guy they turn to, to develop the car.

Wow :

Edited by Diablobb81, 25 March 2013 - 09:01.

[Sin]

if Webber was the guy they turned to to develope the car, then why is Vettel generally doing better in it?

makes no sense

Edited by Sin, 25 March 2013 - 09:03.

[KnucklesAgain]

(...)
On that note, I thought it interesting that he matched Jackie Stewart's number of victories yesterday - especially in the manner in which he won it. I wonder what Stewart thought of Vettel's behaviour?
(...)

"Ein Fahrer muss Teambefehle respektieren. Da gibt es nicht die geringste Diskussion. Diese Disziplin gehört zu einem Champion. Sebastian hat das nicht nötig, was er da gemacht hat. Er ist eine positive Person, doch diese Nummer wird dieses Bild beschädigen."

"A driver must respect team orders. There cannot be any dsicussion. A champion needs to have this kind of discipline. Sebastian didn't need the thing he did today. He is a positive person, but his action will damage the image"
Jackie via AMuS

[yoyogetfunky]

"A driver must respect team orders. There cannot be any dsicussion. A champion needs to have this kind of discipline. Sebastian didn't need the thing he did today. He is a positive person, but his action will damage the image"
Jackie via AMuS

Is there one week we can go without any quote from Jacky Stewart? (looks to heaven).

[DILLIGAF]

if Webber was the guy they turned to to develope the car, then why is Vettel generally doing better in it?

makes no sense

One is particularly good at setting cars up & ones exceptionally good at driving them. That and one is 36yo the other 25yo. Who do you think has the quicker reflexes?

Edited by DILLIGAF, 25 March 2013 - 09:07.

[Sin]

oh yesterday they quoted Lauda... how can anyone take Lauda seriously after he called Kubica Pollacke, without thinking?

[F1hooked]

The biggest loser of yesterday was Vettel. He kicked his reputation into economy class for good. Tells a lot if you can still cheer for a "man" without honour, I'd rather spit in his face..

Haha you got way to much into that.

[Diablobb81]

One is particularly good at setting cars up & ones exceptionally good at driving them. That and one is 36yo the other 25yo. Who do you think has the quicker reflexes?

So there is someone else that believes the crap about Mark setting up the cars. Wow.

[gillesthegenius]

Don't you think that the fact RB used team orders to STOP Vettel winning yesterday's race casts a lot of doubt on the whole train of thought that Webber gets intentionally shafted at the team?

No. No. No. Webber is always the innocent victim and Vettel is always that evil monster.;)

[DILLIGAF]

So there is someone else that believes the crap about Mark setting up the cars. Wow.

Why don't you search for some comments by Adrian Newey about Mark's input.

[DILLIGAF]

No. No. No. Webber is always the innocent victim and Vettel is always that evil monster.;)

You keep trotting that out but who exactly is saying Webber is always innocent besides karne? Don't hold your breath searching?

[KnucklesAgain]

Out of interest, how are the German speaking media reporting this event? The english speaking media - at least in the US, UK, and Australia - are pretty damming towards Vettel. And aside from a section of drunk bogans at the Grand Prix, Vettel's generally very well respected in Australia so I dont think it's essentially nationalistic.

AMuS and Berliner Zeitung are just as critical as anyone else.

[KnucklesAgain]

Is there one week we can go without any quote from Jacky Stewart? (looks to heaven).

I answered a direct question about what Jackie would say.

[Sin]

AMuS and Berliner Zeitung are just as critical as anyone else.

most are neutral tho..... some even positive.... in general the opinion seems to be neutral.... slightly against teamorders in general... if you read the articles that show reactions

[gillesthegenius]

You keep trotting that out but who exactly is saying Webber is always innocent besides karne? Don't hold your breath searching?

Well, wasnt that a response to a question directed at Karne?

[KnucklesAgain]

most are neutral tho..... some even positive.... in general the opinion seems to be neutral.... slightly against teamorders in general... if you read the articles that show reactions

Possible, I can't read all of them. Just saw that Frankfurter Allgemeine manages to not even mention the "get him out of the way" radio
As for mass market, Bild wrote with regard to the apology, "unfortunately this realization came a bit late ...."

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 25 March 2013 - 09:28.

[gillesthegenius]

And Dilligaf, if you were disturbed by my responses to the person who kept claiming that Webber would never do what Seb did yesterday, you have one other guy who atleast implied that Mark was a saint. But I just cant waste my breath to find out who it was, as I cant remember his user name, but you probably know who it is anyway.

[Sin]

so imagine what would be if Vettel just says: "I quit...." what would RB do then?

[apoka]

so imagine what would be if Vettel just says: "I quit...." what would RB do then?

Let's not get into that. He wouldn't do it within the season (and most likely also not next year). If he leaves at some point, then it depends on a lot of other factors but there will be lots of speculation during the silly season anyway. I somehow doubt that the incident will have a massive influence on that.

Edited by apoka, 25 March 2013 - 10:01.

[03011969]

Is there one week we can go without any quote from Jacky Stewart? (looks to heaven).

Heh, quite - although the 1930s music-hall man didn't manage to crowbar in the term "corporate responsibility" for once, so perhaps he's losing his touch.

[2ms]

I wonder what will happen with Ferrari's drivers now that maybe it is possible that Vettel will be willing to leave Red Bull.

It is clear, from how Alonso talks about how superior Red Bull is, that he would prefer to drive for Red Bull. But would Red Bull want Alonso?

[schubacca]

RBR has no choice to side with MW because SV embarrassed himself with his conduct.

Even then, Marko did not lay into his favorite, like he did with MW in the summer....

[readonly]

The apparent support for MW from RBR is fake. They gave SV a better set of tires for the last stint and pitted him earlier. Things went wrong when MW decided to do a fast lap before his last pit and came back ahead of SV. This triggered the "strategy" of the team that they should hold station in the last stint but obviously for the wrong driver. Then, the team did not remind SV of that pre-race defined strategy and let him overtake MW who was told to turn his engine down. The problem (for RBR) started when MW decided to talk about it publicly. There is absolutely no excuse for RBR. All in all, F1 really stinks today.

Edited by readonly, 25 March 2013 - 14:12.

[2ms]

The apparent support for MW from RBR is fake. They gave SV a better set of tires for the last stint and pitted him earlier. Things went wrong when MW decided to do a fast lap before his last pit and came back ahead of SV. This triggered the "strategy" of the team that they should hold station in the last stint but obviously for the wrong driver. Then, the team did not remind SV of that pre-race defined strategy and let him overtake MW who was told to turn his engine down. The problem (for RBR) started when MW decided to talk about it publicly. There is absolutely no excuse for RBR. All in all, F1 really stinks today.

It is true that RBR is stupid for doing an equal driver policy. They should go Ferrari-style and have Vettel do his thing with Webber doing the Massa/Barrichello thing. There is nothing wrong with that. People actually seem to have more objections to RBR than they do to Ferrari even though Ferrari favors one of their drivers more than any other team does.

[rasul]

The apparent support for MW from RBR is fake. They gave SV a better set of tires for the last stint and pitted him earlier. Things went wrong when MW decided to do a fast lap before his last pit and came back ahead of SV. This triggered the "strategy" of the team that they should hold station in the last stint but obviously for the wrong driver. Then, the team did not remind SV of that pre-race defined strategy and let him overtake MW who was told to turn his engine down. The problem (for RBR) started when MW decided to talk about it publicly. There is absolutely no excuse for RBR. All in all, F1 really stinks today.

If that was the case, the only thing they had to do was to make Webber's pit stop a bit longer. They didn't.

But if you're right, then there really is no excuse for RBR if they are letting Vettel take all the blame and basically calling him a liar. So I have trouble believing in it.

[readonly]

If that was the case, the only thing they had to do was to make Webber's pit stop a bit longer. They didn't.

But if you're right, then there really is no excuse for RBR if they are letting Vettel take all the blame and basically calling him a liar. So I have trouble believing in it.

The former would be too obvious. They already had calculated MW's lap time so that SV could overtake him at his pitstop. As I said, this went out of control. They "had" to ask SV to stay behind but the idiot thought it was not to be obeyed because he knows the team will always support him over MW. The team had to look "fair" for MW because he is alreay very much pissed with the past situations. RBR knew that MW "had" to win this one (against their plans) for political reasons. Their big problem now is that MW spoke out loud to the press (with reason) and they will have to do something to reduce damages. Their policy will, though, still be the same in favour of SV.

Edited by readonly, 25 March 2013 - 14:32.

[sv401]

The apparent support for MW from RBR is fake. They gave SV a better set of tires for the last stint and pitted him earlier. Things went wrong when MW decided to do a fast lap before his last pit and came back ahead of SV. This triggered the "strategy" of the team that they should hold station in the last stint but obviously for the wrong driver. Then, the team did not remind SV of that pre-race defined strategy and let him overtake MW who was told to turn his engine down. The problem (for RBR) started when MW decided to talk about it publicly. There is absolutely no excuse for RBR. All in all, F1 really stinks today.

If Webber was disadvantaged by the team in any way, he would have - as usual - made a lot of noise about it. Not to mention the order could easily have been swapped earlier in the race, when the Australian got the advantage of pitting earlier for new tyres more than once. Vettel had a better set of tyres at the end because he saved them in qualifying, and chose to use them in the last stint.

[readonly]

It is true that RBR is stupid for doing an equal driver policy. They should go Ferrari-style and have Vettel do his thing with Webber doing the Massa/Barrichello thing. There is nothing wrong with that. People actually seem to have more objections to RBR than they do to Ferrari even though Ferrari favors one of their drivers more than any other team does.

Even Ferrari (who blatantly protect one driver) tell their #2 driver that he has a chance to win and race his teammate. If a driver is officially called #2 he will know that he has no chance to win ever. Who would accept that ? Who would sponsor a #2 driver ? Drivers are there to win. Not less.

[readonly]

If Webber was disadvantaged by the team in any way, he would have - as usual - made a lot of noise about it. Not to mention the order could easily have been swapped earlier in the race, when the Australian got the advantage of pitting earlier for new tyres more than once. Vettel had a better set of tyres at the end because he saved them in qualifying, and chose to use them in the last stint.

So you believe RBR did not put him in disadvantage even when he has made "a lot of noise" in the past. OK. I don't.

[sv401]

So you believe RBR did not put him in disadvantage even when he has made "a lot of noise" in the past. OK. I don't.

I meant if the team put him at a disadvantage now (by forcing strategy or tyres on him that he did not want), we would surely know about it. Your conspiracy theory is just not really believable. If the team really wanted to favor Vettel, it could have been achieved in much simpler ways.

[readonly]

I meant if the team put him at a disadvantage now (by forcing strategy or tyres on him that he did not want), we would surely know about it. Your conspiracy theory is just not really believable. If the team really wanted to favor Vettel, it could have been achieved in much simpler ways.

Like what ? It has to be such a way in wich MW can't complain.

[apoka]

The apparent support for MW from RBR is fake. They gave SV a better set of tires for the last stint and pitted him earlier. Things went wrong when MW decided to do a fast lap before his last pit and came back ahead of SV. This triggered the "strategy" of the team that they should hold station in the last stint but obviously for the wrong driver. Then, the team did not remind SV of that pre-race defined strategy and let him overtake MW who was told to turn his engine down. The problem (for RBR) started when MW decided to talk about it publicly. There is absolutely no excuse for RBR. All in all, F1 really stinks today.

I thought about that, but I think the gap was too big. Vettel was setting very impressive sector times in inlap (AFAIR), which is why he got close. Nice theory, but not plausible in my opinion.

[sv401]

Like what ? It has to be such a way in wich MW can't complain.

They gave SV a better set of tires for the last stint and pitted him earlier.

So, you do not think Webber would complain about that if it happened against his will ? And if such tactics are fine, why not do exactly the same thing at the second or third pit stop, when the gap was only about 2 seconds, rather than more than 4 ? Losing a lead early is also less controversial than late, when the result already seems to be settled.

The third pit stop in particular would have been a good choice for an early Vettel stop, because the gap between the RB drivers was the smallest, and the team would have had the excuse of pitting Vettel earlier because of the undercutting threat from Hamilton.

Edited by sv401, 25 March 2013 - 15:43.

[Sakae]

I look forward to your heartfelt concern next time Webber has a slow stop. Or his KERS fails.

Probably not, because usually I do not pay attention to it. Yesterday I needed some information, which is why we are discussing it. Now having said that, I assure you that I wish pit stops would not interfere with the race at all for any of drivers. I was never big friend of overtaking in the pits, and that's not type of a race I like to see. One tire for a race would be just fine with me, if a team decides to adopt such strategy. (Just as two or three, as long as it is team's voluntary call, and not mandated by FiA, FOM, and/or Pirelli).

Equipment malfunction (you mentioning KERS) is not in control of a pit crew. Slow tire change however is.

Edited by Sakae, 25 March 2013 - 15:40.