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Webber DID maintain the gap in Silverstone 2011


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#51 gillesthegenius

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 07:52

Watch the first video and tell me if you think Webber could have got past Vettel if he wanted. If you believe he couldn't then all I can say is, as a non-medical professional, you're a dumbass.

:wave:


You just cant resort to name calling just because I dont see what you want yourself and the others to see.

The closest Mark comes to overtaking Seb was when he pulled 3/4ths of his car alonside Seb's. But with Seb having the inside line and also moving across to the left, Mark would have had to go on the wet grass to overtake Seb. Thankfully for Mark, he wasnt a dumbass who thought he could easily get by Vettel there, because had he thought so he might very well have ended up spinning in the grass. :D

Edited by gillesthegenius, 26 March 2013 - 08:03.


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#52 mnmracer

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 07:53

Mark Webber is almost certainly a liar. Almost everyone on this planet has told a lie or two in their time. When Vettel says he ignored team orders accidentally, do I believe him? Not for a second, I know what I saw. It's the same here, I can see him back off, I can hear him release the throttle and I see the car slow as a result even when an opportunity is clearly there, so if he was quoted once as saying he raced until the end do I have to believe that this is true even though my brain tells me otherwise? Nope.

Ever consider it was just a front he put up to try and convince the world, or just himself that he wasn't the number 2 driver?

You should probably have a talk with William of Ockham.

What is more likely?
- That Webber was unable to pass a driver that has time and time again held much faster cars behind him?

- That Webber felt the need to lie about his intentions.
- That with all the animosity there was already between the drivers, Webber felt that Vettel had earned p2 afterall.

#53 Sennasational

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 07:55

You just cant resort to name calling just because I dont see what you want yourself and the others to see.

The closest Mark comes to overtaking Seb was when he pulled 3/4ths of his car alonside Seb's. But with Seb having the inside line and also moving across to the left, Mark would have had to go on the wet grass to overtake Seb. Thankfully for Mark, he wasnt a dumbass who thought he could easily get by Vettel there, because had he thought so he might very well have ended up in the spinning in the grass. :D


That wasn't why I called you the name, I called you a name because of your patronizing medical professional nonsense. If you're going to diagnose me, I'm going to call you a name, yes.

#54 gillesthegenius

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 07:56

There was plenty of space, and he weaves behind him later, the speed difference is entirely noticeable. And if I was trying to prove to the world that I deserved to be treated as an equal driver, I'd want them to think I gave it my all and didn't follow number 2 driver bitch orders. The more you act as a number 2 driver, the more they will treat you as one, and all that.

You're entitled to your opinion on the matter, of course. As am I.

As for the bolded bit - did you see Vettel's overtake on Webber on Sunday? The one where he put his car dangerously close to the wall and Webber squeezed it as far as he possibly could, risking a major collision? You're telling me this is the same Mark Webber who gives it his all by backing off in the situation in the video?


You surely should already know that one cant take all the liberties that he can afford in a dry track, when he is actually driving on a damp one. :p

Edited by gillesthegenius, 26 March 2013 - 07:57.


#55 gillesthegenius

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:00

That wasn't why I called you the name, I called you a name because of your patronizing medical professional nonsense. If you're going to diagnose me, I'm going to call you a name, yes.


When did I diagnose you?

I just gave you some advice about how everything that people see may not actually be the truth, when you were going on about the virtues of believing everything that one sees. :D

#56 Sennasational

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:03

You surely should already know that one cant take all the liberties that he can afford in a dry track, when he is actually driving on a damp one. :p


But he has shown he'll risk a DNF for both him and Vettel for position. I doubt this mindset would change with the conditions of the track.

Don't get me wrong, Vettel is without a doubt faster than Webber, and I'm anything but fond of Webber's whining. But for me, if Marky boy was giving it his all in that situation, he would have gotten past Vettel, the speed was there.

#57 choyothe

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:06

There was plenty of space, and he weaves behind him later, the speed difference is entirely noticeable. And if I was trying to prove to the world that I deserved to be treated as an equal driver, I'd want them to think I gave it my all and didn't follow number 2 driver bitch orders. The more you act as a number 2 driver, the more they will treat you as one, and all that.

You're entitled to your opinion on the matter, of course. As am I.

As for the bolded bit - did you see Vettel's overtake on Webber on Sunday? The one where he put his car dangerously close to the wall and Webber squeezed it as far as he possibly could, risking a major collision? You're telling me this is the same Mark Webber who gives it his all by backing off in the situation in the video?


Where was there space? Mark was obviously committed to the outside (with a part of his car along side) and Vettel was moving to the left on the racing line. You mean the space on the astroturf where he would've certainly ended up? I'll give you that.

If you think Mark thought that lying to the team in saying he was ignoring their orders, after spending half a year getting humiliated by Vettel, would cast him in a good light, that's fine. For me that's laughable.

Yeah, I saw the overtake where Seb went for a clearly adequate space on the inside and Webber did his trademark squeeze which almost put him in the wall. This has nothing to do with him backing off in Silverstone since I've already logically explained to you why it was best for Webber to lift off there for his intentions to pass Vettel at some point. I'm sorry if you can't see that from the ridiculously clear onboard.

#58 Sennasational

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:17

Where was there space? Mark was obviously committed to the outside (with a part of his car along side) and Vettel was moving to the left on the racing line. You mean the space on the astroturf where he would've certainly ended up? I'll give you that.

If you think Mark thought that lying to the team in saying he was ignoring their orders, after spending half a year getting humiliated by Vettel, would cast him in a good light, that's fine. For me that's laughable.

Yeah, I saw the overtake where Seb went for a clearly adequate space on the inside and Webber did his trademark squeeze which almost put him in the wall. This has nothing to do with him backing off in Silverstone since I've already logically explained to you why it was best for Webber to lift off there for his intentions to pass Vettel at some point. I'm sorry if you can't see that from the ridiculously clear onboard.


We see different things then.

After seeing your other posts on the forum, I know I'd be wasting my time arguing with one as...devoted as yourself. You're right, Webber tried his hardest but Vettel was just too good, as always. He really is untouchable, a God among men. When he raises his finger to the sky and smirks my insides go all tingly. And as two wrongs make a right, this fully excuses Vettel's accidental action at the weekend. Which didn't need excusing anyway as it must have simply been divine intervention, and who are we mere mortals to question the almighty?

Can we be friends now? :$

#59 gillesthegenius

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:19

But he has shown he'll risk a DNF for both him and Vettel for position. I doubt this mindset would change with the conditions of the track.


The Mark Webber I know is not that dumb.

Don't get me wrong, Vettel is without a doubt faster than Webber, and I'm anything but fond of Webber's whining. But for me, if Marky boy was giving it his all in that situation, he would have gotten past Vettel, the speed was there.


They were not driving on a dry, straight track for his speed to be the only factor that encourages Mark to go all out. He is a world class racer and he is smart enough to consider the track conditions and the lines taken by both drivers to realise that the chances of him making past Vettel without making contact were very slim.

If it was bone dry though, I would agree that he had a good chance of pulling off a Vettel@curvagrande provided that he had the ability that Seb used to blast past Alonso at Monza that year.

But in the wet, he would have had to be a dumbass to think that going all out wouldnt have been suicide.

Edited by gillesthegenius, 26 March 2013 - 08:28.


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#60 SealTheDiffuser

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:20

I was happy with WEB not obeying in Silverstone 2011 and not happy that he didn't succed because lack of skills/or balls. And I was also happy with VET not obeying team orders in Malaysia 2013, so much drama, good action and fun!


#61 gillesthegenius

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:26

We see different things then.

After seeing your other posts on the forum, I know I'd be wasting my time arguing with one as...devoted as yourself. You're right, Webber tried his hardest but Vettel was just too good, as always. He really is untouchable, a God among men. When he raises his finger to the sky and smirks my insides go all tingly. And as two wrongs make a right, this fully excuses Vettel's accidental action at the weekend. Which didn't need excusing anyway as it must have simply been divine intervention, and who are we mere mortals to question the almighty?


No need to act so childish.

It wasnt Vettel's abilities that was the sole reason behind Webber's inability to get by. Seb used the conditions smartly to make sure that Mark couldnt use the pace he had that day to get by.

Can we be friends now? :$


Why cant you be friends with someone who doesnt share the same opinions as you? :confused:

#62 MikeV1987

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:32

I honestly feel like there is 3-4 massive Vettel fanboys going around each thread about this spouting the same tosh. Maybe its 1 person multi accounting? :rotfl:


Pot calling the kettle black here, I see you post the same **** in multiple threads.

Edited by MikeV1987, 26 March 2013 - 08:34.


#63 Paul Prost

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:35

To anyone who continually spouts off about Mark doing the same thing to Seb at Silverstone 2011 better have a nice CLOSE look at these videos. Mark DID comply with the request to backoff and maintain the gap.



Only when Seb complained did they tell him to hold position, to which he replied "Yeah righto" which you can clearly hear in the video, and in the end did exactly what was asked.

What does Sebastian say at the beginning of that clip? "Be wise now, be wise" ?

#64 docronzo

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:38

Silverstone 2011

MW: I am not fine with it. No. That's the answer to that. If Fernando retires on the last lap we are battling for the victory so I was fine until the end. Of course I ignored the team as I want to try and get another place. Seb was doing his best and I was doing my best. I don't want to crash with anyone, but that was it. I tried to do my best with the amount of conversation I had. One-way conversation obviously as I wasn't talking oo much back. There was a lot of traffic coming to me, but I was still trying to do my best to pass the guy in front.

Webber is number two for a good reason. It was exactly the same situation in Malaysia. What a pitty that Webber lacks the skills to overtake a slower car. That's why Vettel went by. Right was on his side. Those pit wall boffins should just shut up. Teamorders will kill this sport eventually.

#65 MikeV1987

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:38

Yes, let's talk about the vocal Vettel fans while ignoring the just as vocal haters/Webber fans circle jerk. Really usefull discusion.


:clap:

#66 Sennasational

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:39

No need to act so childish.

It wasnt Vettel's abilities that was the sole reason behind Webber's inability to get by. Seb used the conditions smartly to make sure that Mark couldnt use the pace he had that day to get by.



Why cant you be friends with someone who doesnt share the same opinions as you? :confused:


Oh I can have friends with different opinions to me. I respect your opinion for example. But when I see the same people defending their driver and bashing any other driver repeatedly, I can not be friends with them, as any opportunity to debate anything feels like bashing my head against an obnoxious train.

#67 HappyPhantom

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:49

If Mark did maintain the gap how do you explain he went from being a few secs off Vettel to his backend?

It doesn't matter if he didn't overtake Vettel. The order was "maintain the gap" not stay in positions. And he ignored that.

Edited by HappyPhantom, 26 March 2013 - 08:57.


#68 One

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:50

http://www.f1fanatic...er-pass-vettel/

Mark Webber himself said he ignored team orders...


only difference is Vettel made his move stick in the end....

another thing you gotta think about Webber is... and was above 30 years old... he had lots more life experience than Seb had.... and still he ignored team orders,
while at the same time Vettel is 25...


SIN, you managed to start cooking the well made soup.

Let me ask you if you made the correct statement here above, because according to me your statement is pointing at the incorrect journalistic judgement.

Webber ignored Red Bull’s order not to pass Vettel
2011 British Grand Prix

July 10, 2011 at 3:20 pm by Keith Collantine 346 comments

Mark Webber, Red Bull, Silverstone, 2011

Mark Webber said he ignored Red Bull’s order not to try to pass Sebastian Vettel at the end of the British Grand Prix.
Webber was closing on Vettel in the final laps of the race and was one second behind his team mate with two laps to go.
Webber was told on the team radio “Mark, we need to maintain the gap”.
After the race Horner said: “It’s a team result. Circumstances earlier in the race… Sebastian had a KERS issue that we were dealing with and the last thing you want to do is see the team give away a whole load of points.
“From a team point of view we decided that it was best to hold the positions in the final two laps.
“Obviously Mark disagreed with that. The thing is, I can understand he’s maybe a little bit frustrated, but from a team point of view we can’t afford to give away a whole load of points.
Asked if this meant Webber could no longer fight for the championship Horner said: “No, not at all.
“But you get to that stage in the race we’d managed situation earlier in the race to get Mark ahead, give him the undercut effectively, and with the final two laps it was entirely the sensible thing to do.
“The last thing you want to see is both of your drivers in the fence which is how that probably would have ended up.
“The message was quite clear to him, what the team expected of him – not what I expected, what the team collectively expected.”
Horner said Webber: “should be fine” with the team orders, adding: “It was crystal clear this morning when we went into the race that it was all about getting the most points we can out of this event.
“Obviously we’ve had a rear jack issue with Sebastian that cost him the track position to Fernando. That’s racing sometimes, these things can happen. Ferrari was quick today, second and third is still a very strong team result.”
But speaking in the post-race press conference Webber said he was not happy with the instructions.
He revealed the team had first instructed him to hold position “four or five laps” before the end.
He said: “I ignored the team and I was battling to the end.”


IN the article you referred and used to counter the argument of gowebber, there is no words nor quote from Webber himself. What I read is a journalistic statemt that Webber DID ignore the team order, but it completely fails to show the public it's proof.

I must agree with gowebber that I am sick of this kind of statement. You might love to promote hatrid and agony in order for yourself to feel more excited, but this one is too cheap. Better come up with more convincing argument.

Edited by One, 26 March 2013 - 08:52.


#69 Zava

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:53

why would Webber lie that he tried to overtake but failed, if he executed the order? that is like Webber saying "I was not disadvantaged, I did the best I could and failed" even though he was disadvantaged (note: the disadvantaged part is about this scenario, not the real life, as I believe he didn't keep the order). basically he would lie to shed a worse light on his racing abilities. does it make any sense??
it would only make sense in the other way around: he disobeyed, did his best to overtake Vettel but failed, and excused himself with "yeah I couldn't overtake him, but I was keeping the orders I got"


#12: BW, thanks for the Vettel quote, at least it shows he is consistent with his point. too bad he messed it up by lying after the race about not knowing that they ordered him, would've been better if he did like Webber and talked straight about not agreeing and disregarding the order.

#70 Raelene

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:54

One

he said it in the press conference

Edited by Raelene, 26 March 2013 - 08:55.


#71 Diablobb81

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:56

IN the article you referred and used to counter the argument of gowebber, there is no words nor quote from Webber himself.


“I ignored the team and I was battling to the end.”
http://www.f1fanatic...er-pass-vettel/

Good enough?

#72 Sennasational

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:58

“I ignored the team and I was battling to the end.”
http://www.f1fanatic...er-pass-vettel/

Good enough?


Battling is not the same as trying to overtake, in my opinion he was just trying to make a point and made no serious attempt to pass.

#73 Zava

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:00

Battling is not the same as trying to overtake, in my opinion he was just trying to make a point and made no serious attempt to pass.

ok, how about this?

Asked how he felt about the team orders, Webber replied: "I am not fine with it, no. That is the answer to that.

"If Fernando [Alonso] retires on the last lap, we are fighting for the win.

"Of course I ignored the team because I wanted to try and get a place. Seb was doing his best, I was doing my best. I wasn't going to crash with anyone.

"I try to do my best with the amount of one way conversation I was having - I was trying to do my best to pass the guy in front."


http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/93001

I hope you don't say trying to get a place is not the same as trying to overtake :p

#74 skywing

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:00

Battling is not the same as trying to overtake, in my opinion he was just trying to make a point and made no serious attempt to pass.

I ignored the team and I was battling to the end.”

The point is in the bolded part.

#75 HappyPhantom

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:00

Battling is not the same as trying to overtake, in my opinion he was just trying to make a point and made no serious attempt to pass.


Except the order wasn't don't battle or hold position. It was maintain the gap which he didn't.
So it doesn't matter if passed him or not. He didn't follow the team order.

Edited by HappyPhantom, 26 March 2013 - 09:01.


#76 Sennasational

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:05

Except the order wasn't don't battle or hold position. It was maintain the gap which he didn't.
So it doesn't matter if passed him or not. He didn't follow the team order.


I never disputed that. I accept he ignored the order to maintain a gap. This is true. However the technicality of the order was inconsequential, he was told to maintain a gap so that he wouldn't fight for the lead, he wasn't supposed to fight for the lead as to not risk a collision and also in order to hold positions.

Vettel was going slower, RB wanted Vettel to finish first and Webber to finish second, and they did. Contrast this to Sunday...

Thus this scenario can't be used to defend Vettel's action. In my opinion.

I believe Vettel is not to blame though, it's Horner's fault for having no control over either of his drivers.

Edited by Sennasational, 26 March 2013 - 09:10.


#77 docronzo

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:06

Sorry, I'm not doing interviews myself with the drivers so I have to rely on what journalist are correctly or incorrectly judging. It will be ok, for this conversation. What Webber said is also mentioned in the last sentence of the article you posted. "I ignored the team and I was battling to the end." Do I need to get you a can opener for your eyes?

#78 mnmracer

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:06

I never disputed that. I accept he ignored the order to maintain a gap. This is true.

Yet the title of this thread is "Webber DID maintain the gap".
Care to elaborate?

#79 HappyPhantom

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:08

I never disputed that. I accept he ignored the order to maintain a gap. This is true.


Well than he did disobey order didn't he. So this thread is bull and a sad attempt to excuse Mark's hypocrisy



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#80 One

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:11

“I ignored the team and I was battling to the end.”
http://www.f1fanatic...er-pass-vettel/

Good enough?


Well Webber did not pass AND Webber confirmed the radio message from the pit wall.

#81 gillesthegenius

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:11

I hope you don't say trying to get a place is not the same as trying to overtake :p


Like that priceless quote that said ''team orders and orders from the team are not the same. :lol:

Besides, Webber clearly states that Vettel was giving his best and he himself was also giving his best.

#82 PLAYLIFE

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:13

Battling is not the same as trying to overtake, in my opinion he was just trying to make a point and made no serious attempt to pass.


You don't know much about F1 or racing in general if you think Webber wasn't trying to overtake.

He was asked to keep a 3 second gap.

Webber drew his car alongside for God's sake! What do you think he was doing, trying to make eye contact with Seb and tell him that he's just making sure everything is OK?

Mate, time to pull your finger out and wake up to the real world.

#83 One

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:14

ok, how about this?

Asked how he felt about the team orders, Webber replied: "I am not fine with it, no. That is the answer to that.

"If Fernando [Alonso] retires on the last lap, we are fighting for the win.

"Of course I ignored the team because I wanted to try and get a place. Seb was doing his best, I was doing my best. I wasn't going to crash with anyone.

"I try to do my best with the amount of one way conversation I was having - I was trying to do my best to pass the guy in front."


http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/93001

I hope you don't say trying to get a place is not the same as trying to overtake :p


From this report alone, it quite clear that no matter what situation he is involved in, Webber state to the public that he is not giving up on his racing.
This is not a bad thing at all. Weber is a racer and he is stating to the public that he is not giving up. At least till today, he raced till the end. With what short coming I do not know, but Webber COULD not over take Seb. That is written on the minutes.

But as of the video record posted by gowebber on the head of this thread, it is clear thart Webber DID what Pit Wall has asked him to do.

Period.

#84 HappyPhantom

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:17

But as of the video record posted by gowebber on the head of this thread, it is clear thart Webber DID what Pit Wall has asked him to do.

Period.


Except the pitwall asked him to "MAINTAIN THE GAP" not to keep position

#85 One

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:20

Except the pitwall asked him to "MAINTAIN THE GAP" not to keep position


You forgot your period.

Mark was closer than three second perhaps. The main thing is, race ended with how the team set and your statement ended with grammatical imperfection. Now good? Things like this happens.

#86 docronzo

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:21

Just to make it clear: I appreciate what Webber did in Silverstone in 2011, just like I approve Vettels successful move in Malaysia 2013. The results divides men and mice, though.

#87 Zava

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:30

From this report alone, it quite clear that no matter what situation he is involved in, Webber state to the public that he is not giving up on his racing.
This is not a bad thing at all. Weber is a racer and he is stating to the public that he is not giving up. At least till today, he raced till the end. With what short coming I do not know, but Webber COULD not over take Seb. That is written on the minutes.

I appreciate that as well, and I think Vettel should've done the same instead of lying about not knowing there's an order. I liked back then that they were racing, and I liked now that they were racing. I just can't understand that back then why was Webber a hero, and now Vettel the villain.

#88 Rinehart

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:30

According to Horner, the time Webber didn't play ball wasn't Silverstone 2011, but Brazil 2012.

#89 LiJu914

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:35

According to Horner, the time Webber didn't play ball wasn't Silverstone 2011, but Brazil 2012.


He just mentioned one example, that came to his mind - not a full summary of all incidents.

No big surprise that he remebered that most recent one first...

#90 PLAYLIFE

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:36

Mark was closer than three second perhaps.


What do you mean 'perhaps'?

If 2 cars are side-by-side' at over 250 km/hr, can you tell me what the time gap would be?

It's simple physics, but by going by your posts, doesn't seem like fact or logic are your strongest suits so perhaps that's a little too difficult for you...

#91 LiJu914

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:40

Some people in here are just funny.

Nobody is forced to think, Silverstone and Malaysia were the basically same thing.

But claiming Mark didn´t ignore the team instruction and attacking SV in Silverstone is A. denial of reality and B. implies that Webber just balatantly lied at the press conference for no real purpose whatsoever C. is not able to look at a TV-screen.

Come up with arguments that are real, then we can discuss - but don´t twist the facts just because you can´t think of any better.


But as i know that some will just go on and on, i think i´m done with it. Knock yourself out guys.

#92 One

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:44

What do you mean 'perhaps'?

If 2 cars are side-by-side' at over 250 km/hr, can you tell me what the time gap would be?

It's simple physics, but by going by your posts, doesn't seem like fact or logic are your strongest suits so perhaps that's a little too difficult for you...


Well you are right, but I did not timed the differences, have you, OK?

Get a grip on your life, you have better things to do. :) :up:

#93 mnmracer

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:47

Well you are right, but I did not timed the differences, have you, OK?

Get a grip on your life, you have better things to do. :) :up:

Someone who is unwilling to admit to the factual lies he has told, telling another person to get a grip on your life. :wave: :lol:

#94 One

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:48

I appreciate that as well, and I think Vettel should've done the same instead of lying about not knowing there's an order. I liked back then that they were racing, and I liked now that they were racing. I just can't understand that back then why was Webber a hero, and now Vettel the villain.


Unfortunately Seb has this Helmut Marko's protectionism going around.
I do believe that Seb's performance till today owe 100% to this man. If there was no protectionism Webber might have taken at least one championship. The reason to resent the presence of Helmut and preferential deals, hence agony, this is how I see it. The rest I have no idea.

#95 One

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:49

Someone who is unwilling to admit to the factual lies he has told, telling another person to get a grip on your life. :wave: :lol:

care to elaborate? your statement has full of undefined logical clauses.

#96 D.M.N.

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:54

I think constructive discussion here very quickly ended.