185 replies to this topic

[kosmos]

"Vettel is the boss there," he told RAI Radio. "If there was a manager with balls, he would have had them switch positions again.

"The problem is that there are two people with different ideas on the pit wall, with Helmut [Marko] behind them doing the talking with Mateschitz, so you understand they are all scared."

He criticised Horner's decision not to join his drivers on the podium, instead sending design guru Adrian Newey up.

"Normally the team principal goes on the podium at the first race win of the season," he added.

"Christian didn't even have the strength to get on the podium - because they're terrified with a driver in charge instead of the team manager. You'd first go yourself if you win the championship or the first race, and after that you'd send race engineers or your technical director.

"The fact that Christian didn't go on the podium after scoring a one-two says a lot about his weakness compared to the others."

http://www.f1times.c...s/display/07398


This topic it's to discuss Horner, not Flavio Briatore, if you want to insult him or talk about his thong, this is not the place. Thanks.


I vote "other", I think Horner is one of the key persons to RB success, probably he does a great job at Milton Keynes managing everything but when he is on track, he looks like a puppet to me. From the outside it looks like Marko runs the show when the team is on track. An opinion, not fact.

Edited by D.M.N., 26 March 2013 - 22:44.

[JRizzle86]

http://www.f1times.c...s/display/07398


This topic it's to discuss Horner, not Flavio Briatore, if you want to insult him or talk about his tong, this is not the place. Thanks.


I vote "other", I think Horner is one of the key persons to RB success, probably he does a great job at Milton Keynes managing everything but when he is on track, he looks like a puppet to me. From the outside it looks like Marko runs the show when the team is on track. An opinion, not fact.

Considering Briatore is Webber's manager, does that make him in any way impartial?

[David1976]

I agree with Briatore (did I just write that??!!)

Horner, whilst obviously an excellent team manager developing the success Red Bull enjoy, has to show strength in difficult times. This is a difficult time for inter-team dynamics and he did not demonstrated strength when it was needed. It's too little too late now.

After all, Webber will not be the only part of the team disappointed with the outcome of Malaysia. What about Webber's side of the garage?

[MP422]

God,,, I miss ol' Flavio !!

[Mc_Silver]

Briatore is the last person to talk about team orders IMHO. We did not forget what he has done for Alonso in his Renault days. Flavio and Ross are the ones who brought and used team orders into the sport.

Edited by Mc_Silver, 26 March 2013 - 15:44.

[Sakae]

I voted "other"; for good or bad, he is there current manager, not Mr. Briatore, and if there is an issues with the team, it's between Horner and DM only, and not between Horner and talking heads sitting on the fence. Horner has done a lot of good over the years with that team, but one wonders if a such intelligent individual has weakness managing drivers, or he is receiving interference from DM and is forced into decisions with which he is not totally in agreement. I actually have nothing bad to say about him, but the control over drivers is no good, whoever is responsible. Webber should not have been signed again, and deep down I think Horner knows that.

[string158]

I agree with Favio in this one. I can imagine Ron Dennis for example, going ballistic on the radio telling his driver that if he doesn't yield the place he would never drive the car again....

[halifaxf1fan]

With Flavio as boss not only would Webber have won the race in Malaysia but he would have had Vettel crash into a wall.

He is that good, just ask him!

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 26 March 2013 - 15:50.

[Mc_Silver]

With Flavio as boss not only would Webber have won the race in Malaysia but he would have had Vettel crash into a wall.

He is that good, just ask him!

[KnucklesAgain]

I think Horner is one of the key persons in RB's success and voted accordingly, but in this instance I kind of agree with Briatore. Though I doubt it is a question of balls, Ron Dennis doesn't lack those I guess, and he still was helpless in clashes of more than one driver pair. Not walking up to the podium can be seen as Briatore described it, but sometimes it is the smarter thing for a boss to let things cool off. Edit: Difficult whichever way you look at it.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 26 March 2013 - 15:52.

[Abranet]

Briatore is the last person to talk about team orders IMHO. We did not forget what he has done for Alonso in his Renault days. Flavio and Ross are the ones who brought and used team orders into the sport.

That is simply not true by any stretch.

[Clatter]

Briatore is the last person to talk about team orders IMHO. We did not forget what he has done for Alonso in his Renault days. Flavio and Ross are the ones who brought and used team orders into the sport.

Really?

[redbroccoli]

Briatore is the last person to talk about team orders IMHO. We did not forget what he has done for Alonso in his Renault days. Flavio and Ross are the ones who brought and used team orders into the sport.

He should be the first person to talk about team orders.
We are talking about a driver ignoring team order, not whether team order has a place in F1 or not.

[MP422]

Briatore is the last person to talk about team orders IMHO. We did not forget what he has done for Alonso in his Renault days. Flavio and Ross are the ones who brought and used team orders into the sport.

I guess what Flavio was saying about Horner just flew right over your head.

[rasul]

I have to say it's pretty smart. Baiting Horner to prove him wrong and punish Vettel so that it "will hopefully advantage Ferrari," as he admitted himself.

But he's sort of right. Horner can manage neither Webber nor Vettel. He is responsible for the team's dynamic. A smart manager wouldn't keep two enemies(?) in his team for years.

Edited by rasul, 26 March 2013 - 15:59.

[JRizzle86]

Really?

To be fair Flavio asked one of his drivers to crash into a wall to help his other driver win the race via team orders.

Todt asked his drivers to swap positions in a number of highly embarrassing ways for the sport, especially when it didn't work out as planned. Although Ross was on the pitwall.

[Sakae]

Problem with Mr. Briatore is, that he is suffering from premature ejection and cannot think strategically. IMO sending Vettel back would have pleased some none descriptive egos having no tangible interest in the team, but it would create PR disaster of large proportions than what it is already. Cool head prevailed, and it will be spoken about (or yelled about) in privacy, as it should be. Webber is history, and whilst Seb is on the carpet, I doubt that they want now to get rid of both drivers, and start from scratch. Maybe they do, but that would be historical change, for sure.

Edited by Sakae, 26 March 2013 - 16:02.

[KnucklesAgain]

To be fair Flavio asked one of his drivers to crash into a wall to help his other driver win the race via team orders.

Todt asked his drivers to swap positions in a number of highly embarrassing ways for the sport, especially when it didn't work out as planned. Although Ross was on the pitwall.

And neither makes anyone involved "the ones who brought and used team orders into the sport"

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 26 March 2013 - 16:04.

[JRizzle86]

And neither makes anyone involved "the ones who brought and used team orders into the sport"

True, i agree they weren't the first.

[CrucialXtreme]

Briatore is the last person to talk about team orders IMHO. We did not forget what he has done for Alonso in his Renault days. Flavio and Ross are the ones who brought and used team orders into the sport.

He's not talking about team orders, he's talking about the fact Horner can't control his drivers, that Seb runs the team and he's pretty much spot on. Look at how Brawn told his drivers what to do and they did it. Unwillingly, but did it. Now have a look at Jonathan Noble's assessment of the situation. He's not Briatore but he says the same thing.


Team bosses often say that no driver should be bigger than the team – and yet that is exactly the situation Red Bull now faces. Vettel has put his head above the parapet to show that he has the power to do what he wishes within the team. His defiance on Sunday was a sign that he can call the shots.

Vettel made the decision to put his own interests above those of the team in the most public of ways – and the fact that the team was too anxious to order him to hand the position back to Webber further proved the point.

It was a remarkable admission from team principal Christian Horner on Sunday night that the order to tell Vettel to let Webber back through was not made because the team knew it would be ignored. That says everything about who is the real boss at the team.

Just contrast that situation with Mercedes' Ross Brawn making it clear from the pitwall to both Lewis Hamilton and Nico Rosberg that he's the team principal. He makes the call and they must do what he says. He stood firm in the drivers' briefing afterwards, too.

Link--> http://plus.autospor...d-bull-created/


@MP422 Exactly

Edited by CrucialXtreme, 26 March 2013 - 16:16.

[ANF]

Considering Briatore is Webber's manager, does that make him in any way impartial?

[swerved]

With Flavio as boss not only would Webber have won the race in Malaysia but he would have had Vettel crash into a wall.

He is that good, just ask him!

[maverick69]

It does show a distinct weakness on the surface. But I don't think that is necessarily a function of Christian Horner's character...... but rather a function of the beast that Red Bull, and Vettel for that matter has become.

One thing is for sure...... If Vettel had tried that with like likes of Patrick Head in charge - he probably would been taken out the back of the garage and got a P45 stuffed up his arse.......

[string158]

It does show a distinct weakness on the surface. But I don't think that is necessarily a function of Christian Horner's character...... but rather a function of the beast that Red Bull, and Vettel for that matter has become.

One thing is for sure...... If Vettel had tried that with like likes of Patrick Head in charge - he probably would been taken out the back of the garage and got a P45 stuffed up his arse.......

Exactly.

[expert]

He's not talking about team orders, he's talking about the fact Horner can't control his drivers, that Seb runs the team and he's pretty much spot on. Look at how Brawn told his drivers what to do and they did it. Unwillingly, but did it. Now have a look at Jonathan Noble's assessment of the situation. He's not Briatore but he says the same thing.


Team bosses often say that no driver should be bigger than the team – and yet that is exactly the situation Red Bull now faces. Vettel has put his head above the parapet to show that he has the power to do what he wishes within the team. His defiance on Sunday was a sign that he can call the shots.

Vettel made the decision to put his own interests above those of the team in the most public of ways – and the fact that the team was too anxious to order him to hand the position back to Webber further proved the point.

It was a remarkable admission from team principal Christian Horner on Sunday night that the order to tell Vettel to let Webber back through was not made because the team knew it would be ignored. That says everything about who is the real boss at the team.

Just contrast that situation with Mercedes' Ross Brawn making it clear from the pitwall to both Lewis Hamilton and Nico Rosberg that he's the team principal. He makes the call and they must do what he says. He stood firm in the drivers' briefing afterwards, too.

Link--> http://plus.autospor...d-bull-created/


@MP422 Exactly

Totally agree with this, as said in one of the other threads.

Horner looking weak right now.

Edited by expert, 26 March 2013 - 16:30.

[expert]

It does show a distinct weakness on the surface. But I don't think that is necessarily a function of Christian Horner's character...... but rather a function of the beast that Red Bull, and Vettel for that matter has become.

This is true. Horner's problem is that he doesn't seem to have the power to make a call on the spot to admonish Vettel without first petitioning his higher ups. He is also in the postiion of Newey having almost, or as much power as him within the team. He can't assert his authority in the same way Brawn can.

Maybe Horner is the one that should be quiting in protest?

Edited by expert, 26 March 2013 - 16:33.

[MaxisOne]

Exactly.

Yep ... Its a matter of personality

You have certain bosses that gives little margin for antics like what vettel did. Head, Brawn , Todt, Briatore, Dennis, (Montezemolo*) to name a few... With the bosses mentioned you know there will be consequences for stunts like that.


Then there are some that will kind of allow it and try and smooth it over after the deed is done.

I dont know ... its kind of difficult to be in Horner's shoes because we probably dont know the entire picture (His authority level over Seb vs Markos authority over both Horner and Seb) and stuff like that.

[Szoelloe]

Briatore is the last person to talk about team orders IMHO. We did not forget what he has done for Alonso in his Renault days. Flavio and Ross are the ones who brought and used team orders into the sport.

Seriously? I mean seriously??

[Afterburner]

One thing is for sure...... If Vettel had tried that with like likes of Patrick Head in charge - he probably would been taken out the back of the garage and got a P45 stuffed up his arse.......

Thanks mate, you just made my day.

[MikeV1987]

Briatore is (or was) also Webber's manager so not surprised to see him attack Horner.

[EthanM]

It was a remarkable admission from team principal Christian Horner on Sunday night that the order to tell Vettel to let Webber back through was not made because the team knew it would be ignored. That says everything about who is the real boss at the team.

or maybe the outcome (Vettel overtaking Webber) suited RedBull fine and they'd rather deal with Webber whining a bit than swap them back

[One]

nothing happens at the red bull camp in terms of faces of manager. they will release new statement that air is clear.

and in china one of the two may get a fatality. i am not joking.

[rasul]

It was a remarkable admission from team principal Christian Horner on Sunday night that the order to tell Vettel to let Webber back through was not made because the team knew it would be ignored. That says everything about who is the real boss at the team.

A good friend of mine thinks that Horner lied. That secretly, RB people were glad that Vettel did what he did, and that they just put on a show to get the blame off them. He thinks that if RB really wanted Mark to win, they would have at least tried to tell Vettel to let Webber back through, but they didn't.

I can't say I agree with that opinion, but who knows? Horner's words didn't entirely convince me, either. Something seems off about the whole thing.

[sharo]

Flavio is right. While the shitstorm rages over poor Vettel's head and the haters are on a rampage the real roots are in the management. This is not the first time I share my view.
I am still puzzled why in the middle of the race Vettel's race engineer could say in plain English "hold your position" but after the last pit stops they use a code which is supposedly implying end of racing between them. Is this just a manner of speech - unclear and not straight cut, or there are some misunderstandings on the pit wall? I ask this because from what we heard at around lap 25 it sounded like a promise to Vettel to bi given a chance later in the race.
It is whole separate story why with more than 10 laps to the end the race is practically ended.

[britishtrident]

Not only Christian Horner but Adrian Newey was clearly furious with Vettel, if Newey tells Mateschitz he will walk unless Marko is removed from the team and Horner is allowed to do is job, Mateschitz will have to listen or Red Bull will face some very lean years.

Edited by britishtrident, 26 March 2013 - 16:46.

[stanga]

Can't argue with alot of that, to be honest.

Although, I did sort of decide that Horner was being shrewd in placing Newey in that room rather than himself. I'm guessing both drivers respect Newey and would be less likely to cause a 'scene'. I rather think Horner would have inflamed matters.

[stanga]

Flavio is right. While the shitstorm rages over poor Vettel's head and the haters are on a rampage the real roots are in the management. This is not the first time I share my view.
I am still puzzled why in the middle of the race Vettel's race engineer could say in plain English "hold your position" but after the last pit stops they use a code which is supposedly implying end of racing between them. Is this just a manner of speech - unclear and not straight cut, or there are some misunderstandings on the pit wall? I ask this because from what we heard at around lap 25 it sounded like a promise to Vettel to bi given a chance later in the race.
It is whole separate story why with more than 10 laps to the end the race is practically ended.

Poor Vettel. Poor, poor Seb!!! Oh the humanity!!

[Szoelloe]

I don't like Briatore. But he is 100% right on this one.

"get him out of the way! He is too slow!"

That was when my eyes went wide, really, during the broadcast of the race. It most certainly is the case of the tail wagging the dog. They all can thank that to Marko. This has been debated to death already, and now here is proof for you. Finally, the idiotic mumbling that Marko produced in the mike under his nose after the race was priceless. SV thought he is king of the hill, and in the situation and environment they(Marko) have created for him, who wouldn't have? Actually it is humorous how SV himself exposed them in one single race. It does seem Webber is only there to give credit to SV. That kind of makes Webber a monkey too, letting them fool around with his talent and his career.

Edited by Szoelloe, 26 March 2013 - 16:56.

[Diablobb81]

Maybe Horner doesn't have balls because he allowed Mark to defy him and didn't kick him out.

From the horse's mouth :


"He told Italy’s Sky Sport 24 that he thinks Red Bull was justified in asking Webber to hold station.

“Welcome to F1,” Briatore is quoted as saying. “I would have done the same.

“If you’re playing for a world championship, you have to take decisions and drivers need to understand that it’s not your car and it’s a team of hundreds of people. They (drivers) need to respect that,” he added.


Read More http://www.yallaf1.c.....8YallaF1.com)

"get him out of the way! He is too slow!"

You mean when RB imposed TO on Vettel and told him to keep a 3 sec gap and yet Mark was driving so slow that the put Seb at risk to be overtaken by Merc?

Edited by Diablobb81, 26 March 2013 - 16:58.

[expert]

btw poll is unfair as several options are valid for this particular situation, but I don't think anyone could argue that Horner is not "one of the key persons to RB success."

[Raikkonen94]

I think this is the first time I fully agree with Briatore. Hopefully, probably not, something will happen because Webber doesn't get his win back with the insincere apologies from Vettel.

[seahawk]

We must consider that we saw something new in F1. It was not the 2nd driver fighting against the team order, it was not 2 equal drivers ignoring team order while fighting with each other, it was the golden boy, who would be nothing without the team, who ignored team orders and made fools of all the people responsible for his undeserved titles. It is not Horner´s fault, it is only Vettel´s.

[Skinnyguy]

I agree with Favio in this one. I can imagine Ron Dennis for example, going ballistic on the radio telling his driver that if he doesn't yield the place he would never drive the car again....

Hungary 07. Lewis did drive again on race day.

[string158]

I don't like Briatore. But he is 100% right on this one.

"get him out of the way! He is too slow!"

That was when my eyes went wide, really, during the broadcast of the race. It most certainly is the case of the tail wagging the dog. They all can thank that to Marko. This has been debated to death already, and now here is proof for you. Finally, the idiotic mumbling that Marko produced in the mike under his nose after the race was priceless. SV thought he is king of the hill, and in the situation and environment they(Marko) have created for him, who wouldn't have? Actually it is humorous how SV himself exposed them in one single race. It does seem Webber is only there to give credit to SV. That kind of makes Webber a monkey too, letting them fool around with his talent and his career.

I thought the way he said that was incredible, ordering the team to move Mark over. I thought that radio message was as bad as the move he pulled. Webber will go mental when he hears that one.

[SpaMaster]

Sorry, you can't say this is not about the person giving the statement, but only the statement. That makes no sense what so ever. Briatore is the biggest cheat the sport has ever seen. He does not qualify to comment on anything. It is sad that people want to report what he says. I killed someone few months back. Today I criticize someone who cut someone's hand. You want to say 'don't bother about the person'. Really? You want to open a thread about such criticisms?

[Bean]

"Vettel is the boss there," he told RAI Radio. "If there was a manager with balls, he would have had them switch positions again.

"The problem is that there are two people with different ideas on the pit wall, with Helmut [Marko] behind them doing the talking with Mateschitz, so you understand they are all scared."

He criticised Horner's decision not to join his drivers on the podium, instead sending design guru Adrian Newey up.

"Normally the team principal goes on the podium at the first race win of the season," he added.

"Christian didn't even have the strength to get on the podium - because they're terrified with a driver in charge instead of the team manager. You'd first go yourself if you win the championship or the first race, and after that you'd send race engineers or your technical director.

"The fact that Christian didn't go on the podium after scoring a one-two says a lot about his weakness compared to the others."

It's an interesting opinion... In the past, I think it'd have been much easier for an order of "Seb, give the position back" to take place. Nowadays, with the FOM monitoring and broadcasting team radio, it's a lot trickier. The situation was awkward enough, and to tell Seb that.... it would have just added fuel to a fire that was already out of control. I think the fact that Christian not going to the podium can also be viewed as "I'm upset with what happened and don't condone it". I kind of think the perfect team rep went up there.

That being said... Christian has demonstrated over the years that he has a very tough time controlling these two drivers. He looked silly when begging and pleading Mark to stay behind Seb at Silverstone. He looked silly on several occasions when trying to get Seb to not go for unnecessary fastest laps when the race win is already in the bag. And after learning a very hard lesson in Turkey, an eerily similar situation comes up here in Malaysia which is once again mis-handled, making him look silly... again.

Oh to be silly and successful though...

So anyway, I agree with Sakae. I think doing things out in the open just makes it worse. So, "lack of balls" to some, "maintaining cool under stress" to others. I certainly commend Mark for not doing and saying more after the race actually.

I think Seb genuinely felt bad about what he did afterwards: He won, but he couldn't take any joy out of it. That fact, more than anything that Christian will say/do to him, will be what makes Sebastian act differently in these situations in the future.

[andrewf1]

You mean when RB imposed TO on Vettel and told him to keep a 3 sec gap and yet Mark was driving so slow that the put Seb at risk to be overtaken by Merc?

right, mark was driving so slow, that immediately after vettel complained on the radio, mark pulled 1.8 seconds away from him in 2 laps. He was the one pulling away, it wasn't vettel slowing down, because otherwise he would have been overtaken by lewis. Mark was driving to whatever his engineer told him to drive. It was high 1:41's.
go watch the race again.

[EthanM]

I thought the way he said that was incredible, ordering the team to move Mark over. I thought that radio message was as bad as the move he pulled. Webber will go mental when he hears that one.

Why would he go mental? Webber's been the epitome of a waste of a perfectly good car for the last 4 years.

It's an interesting opinion... In the past, I think it'd have been much easier for an order of "Seb, give the position back" to take place. Nowadays, with the FOM monitoring and broadcasting team radio, it's a lot trickier.

there's nothing "tricky" about it. IF they wanted Vettel to give the position back they would have told him so, team orders are legal, there's nothing tricky about it. They just didn't seriously care, they towed the "line" on paper of ending racing at the last pitstop. But seriously, would they give Vettel a strategy that made his car quick on the last stint if they wanted him to finish behind Webber? Don't be silly. It's all smoke and mirrors, Webber has his public whine, gets a few pats in the back and life goes on.

Edited by EthanM, 26 March 2013 - 17:08.

[Watkins74]

I hope no one minds if I looked up the last 3 seasons and checked the podium representative for RBR for their first victory.

2012 Bahrain - Horner

2011 Australia - An older, heavy set, balding, gray haired man I didn't recognize. edit: Rob Marshall - Thank you "plumtree"

2010 Maylasia - Newey

edit: if I recall correctly the team principal for Lotus was not on stage with Kimi at the last race.

Edited by Watkins74, 26 March 2013 - 17:39.

[string158]

I think its more about attitude and respect. Vettel could have got the same message across by saying something like "I'm faster than Mark", rather than ordering the team to do his bidding and sounding like a petulant child.