155 replies to this topic

[joshb]

As we know, Vettel has come under scathing criticizm, some of which is ok, some of which is over the top I feel.

But were he to let Webber beat him if the situation arose in the next few races, denying himself a win, would he do it?
And if he did would that be acceptable for you and would you forgive him?

Cheers

[Disgrace]

would he do it?

No.

[joshb]

This was meant to be a poll
1) Yes all forgiven
2) Not fully forgiven but regain some respect
3) He's merely evened the score- stil la long way to go
4) Not at all- his career is forever tarnished

[string158]

It would never happen. Cant see Vettel ever doing it.

[MikeV1987]

Theres no point, he doesn't owe Webber anything.

[rasul]

If he already won his 4th WDC by that point, he could, and probably would.

Whether he should or shouldn't is another matter, though.

Edited by rasul, 26 March 2013 - 16:37.

[Sakae]

Vettel could do it (I am not sure that he will), but to what purpose it would serve? His detractors would never give him credit for it, and surely found 1000 reasons why it was Webber's win "on merit", and, more importantly, frankly speaking Webber doesn't strikes me that anything would satisfy him but execution of Vettel, and Horner kissing his ass in public.

[Afterburner]

Would it redeem Vettel for Malaysia? Probably. Would he do it? I think probably not, unless he's already clinched the championship.

[Disgrace]

If he already won his 4th WDC by that point, he could, and probably would.

Whether he should or shouldn't is another matter, though.

Brazil 2011 has shown that he arguably already has, but that's the obvious condition.

[fabr68]

If Vettel stole a legitimate win from Webber, by taking advantage of his turn down engine and eliminatimg the gap, what makes you think he will give up a win when he is deserving it on merit.

[Sakae]

If Vettel stole a legitimate win from Webber, by taking advantage of his turn down engine and eliminatimg the gap, what makes you think he will give up a win when he is deserving it on merit.

It may come as a shock to you, but Webber hasn't won anything in Maly 2013 on merit. There was some distance to go, and what might have been his win was actually a gift from the team. No one can say for certain how it would ended up without radio call, but my bet is on Vettel. Webber got into front by strategy call, not merely by his driving skills.

Edited by Sakae, 26 March 2013 - 16:44.

[seahawk]

Simple - no.

[joshb]

It may come as a shock to you, but Webber hasn't won anything in Maly 2013 on merit. There was some distance to go, and what might have been his win was actually a gift from the team. No one can say for certain how it would ended up without radio call, but my bet is on Vettel. Webber got into front by strategy call, not merely by his driving skills.

What I don't get is had Horner had the bottle to say "Seb you must not pass, that is a team order', because it was Seb being denied a win by team orders- it would be seen as a brilliant bit of management by the team- deny any possible conflict. I would have been pi$$ed but understood why he did it.
And had it been Mark closing on Seb for the win and he did what Seb did on Sunday, it would be seen as a brilliant triumph against Red Bull and team orders. Again, I'd have been annoyed but I wouldn't have lost the plot like some sections of the public have.

Without wanting to sound too bitter, I strongly believe the public and parts of the press have it in for Vettel, for whatever reason and different standards are applied to him than other drivers.

One thing it will do it will either galvanise Webber and he'll have repeats of his Silverstone 2010 performance
Or he will overdrive and not get the results.

Edited by joshb, 26 March 2013 - 16:54.

[MaxisOne]

It may come as a shock to you, but Webber hasn't won anything in Maly 2013 on merit. There was some distance to go, and what might have been his win was actually a gift from the team. No one can say for certain how it would ended up without radio call, but my bet is on Vettel. Webber got into front by strategy call, not merely by his driving skills.

Wow .. sometimes your posts are good and then .. sometimes ... .. just wow.

Anyways ..

The bottom line is Webber was in the lead with the wick turned down ... with the assumption he was not going to be overtaken. Whatever the distance to the end of the race is completely irrelevant as the protocol was to cruise to the finish while maintaining position.. What is so difficult for you to understand ? Gift from the team ? What an assumption to make.. how convenient for you to forget the need to preserve fuel/tyres/engines and gearboxes not to mention the possibility of losing one or both chassis over an unnecessary squabble if they allowed them to race to the end.

Oh.. and strategy calls works both ways my friend... and last time i recall you actually have to be driving to make a strategy work. Just because Marks strat put him in front does not discount the merits of his driving. Vettel has benefited from strategy calls alot more times than Mark ... I haven't seen you moaning about it when Vettel benefits.

As it regards to the question at hand ... no .. Mark should not accept a charity win. He probably wont anyways and Seb probably wont give it.

Edited by MaxisOne, 26 March 2013 - 16:57.

[Sakae]

Wow .. sometimes your posts are good and then .. sometimes ... .. just wow.

Anyways ..

The bottom line is Webber was in the lead with the wick turned down ... with the assumption he was not going to be overtaken. Whatever the distance to the end of the race is completely irrelevant as the protocol was to cruise to the finish while maintaining position.. What is so difficult for you to understand ? Gift from the team ? What an assumption to make.. how convenient for you to forget the need to preserve fuel/tyres/engines and gearboxes not to mention the possibility of losing one or both chassis over an unnecessary squabble if they allowed them to race to the end.

Oh.. and strategy calls works both ways my friend... and last time i recall you actually have to be driving to make a strategy work. Just because Marks strat put him in front does not discount the merits of his driving. Vettel has benefited from strategy calls alot more times than Mark ... I haven't seen you moaning about it when Vettel benefits.

Data suggest that Webber was cought by Vettel under the same engine setting. I am basing my doubts about Webber's fitness to fend-off Vettel on two grounds. (1) Vettel when it comes to round 12 is as dangerous animal as you can have in the ring, and his skills are significantly higher up on Webber, and (2) I think Webber's tires were not as in good shape as Vettel's.

Has there been just one or two laps to go, then maybe, but there was plenty left, and from 3 sec gap Webber did not have a chance. I might be bias, but I have also seen Sebastian in the office when hammer comes down. Anyway, all what I am saying that making claims Webber would have won this is just conjecture; bad one at that.

Edited by Sakae, 26 March 2013 - 17:05.

[ToXiCiTy]

Why is there a code to begin with? Teamorders are legal, so why all this crap with "Multi21".

[gurney]

Data suggest that Webber was cought by Vettel under the same engine setting. I am basing my doubts about Webber's fitness to fend-off Vettel on two grounds. (1) Vettel when it comes to round 12 is as dangerous animal as you can have in the ring, and his skills are significantly higher up on Webber, and (2) I think Webber's tires were not as in good shape as Vettel's.

Has there been just one or two laps to go, then maybe, but there was plenty left, and from 3 sec gap Webber did not have a chance. I might be bias, but I have also seen Sebastian in the office when hammer comes down. Anyway, all what I am saying that making claims Webber would have won this is just conjecture; bad one at that.

Where is this data? I have seen no data, I have seen at most a link to lap times, but that proof sod all other than the lap time they did. I have not seen any proof or DATA that people seem to refer to.

[MaxisOne]

Data suggest that Webber was cought by Vettel under the same engine setting. I am basing my doubts about Webber's fitness to fend-off Vettel on two grounds. (1) Vettel when it comes to round 12 is as dangerous animal as you can have in the ring, and his skills are significantly higher up on Webber, and (2) I think Webber's tires were not as in good shape as Vettel's.

Has there been just one or two laps to go, then maybe, but there was plenty left, and from 3 sec gap Webber did not have a chance. I might be bias, but I have aslo seen Sebastian in the office when hammer comes down. Anyway, all what I am saying that making claims Webber would have won this is just conjecture; bad one at that.

I agree with you that most likely Webber would have ( and indeed did) have his ass served to him when they actually got into it. However, barring a mechanical issue or his tyres falling off the cliff or some act of god Webber would have won that race because he assumed he would not have been attacked by Vettel under orders from the team to hold station and bring the cars home. That's where the assumption comes from.

Your assumptions are based on the thought that they were free to race ... they were not.. And id like to see something concrete that indicates that Webbers engine was set the same as Seb's when Seb was taking massive chunks of laptime from the 3 second cushion.

[Juggles]

If he does it after he's wrapped up the championship, no. If he does it while the championship is still alive, yes. Hopefully the situation arises in the next few races.

[surbjits]

[joshb]

If he does it after he's wrapped up the championship, no. If he does it while the championship is still alive, yes. Hopefully the situation arises in the next few races.

But I bet he wouldn't give him monaco or a race he hasn't won (Canada) or another prestigious one.
I bet he'd give him China or Bahrain though!

[Skinnyguy]

If Vettel stole a legitimate win from Webber, by taking advantage of his turn down engine and eliminatimg the gap, what makes you think he will give up a win when he is deserving it on merit.

Because we already saw it in Brazil 2011.

But I don´t think it will happen anymore. The relationship is dead.

[jstrains]

1. Vettel would never do that
2. Webber would never accept it

[Clatter]

Data suggest that Webber was cought by Vettel under the same engine setting. I am basing my doubts about Webber's fitness to fend-off Vettel on two grounds. (1) Vettel when it comes to round 12 is as dangerous animal as you can have in the ring, and his skills are significantly higher up on Webber, and (2) I think Webber's tires were not as in good shape as Vettel's.

Has there been just one or two laps to go, then maybe, but there was plenty left, and from 3 sec gap Webber did not have a chance. I might be bias, but I have also seen Sebastian in the office when hammer comes down. Anyway, all what I am saying that making claims Webber would have won this is just conjecture; bad one at that.

Even if such data exists it really doesn't matter. Webber was told to cruise and that Vettel would not attack.

I don't think anything will bring the trust back and the really interesting bit will be in the closing stages of the season if Vettel needs Webber's help to retain the WDC. There will be no reason to provide any help and it will be fun to watch if his actions cost Vettel.

[mnmracer]

Even if such data exists it really doesn't matter. Webber was told to cruise and that Vettel would not attack.

I don't think anything will bring the trust back and the really interesting bit will be in the closing stages of the season if Vettel needs Webber's help to retain the WDC. There will be no reason to provide any help and it will be fun to watch if his actions cost Vettel.

For one, when has Webber actually helped Vettel, and when was it necessary (Brazil was moot in the end)?
Unless you believe Webber would give up his own victories to screw over Vettel, which, no matter how much he hates Vettel, I can not see happen. Ever.

[eronrules]

1. Vettel would never do that
2. Webber would never accept it

3. fans would make a even bigger fuss about it.

In F1, Altruism = Humiliation

if i were vettel, i'd just say yes to everything Horner and marko and newey says, put it under my pillow and sleep on it for 3 weeks and forget it. People these days have very short attention span. in 3 weeks all will be forgotten and normal service would resume..... and that'd be all.

what will exactly webber do in 3 weeks??? moan some more??? his father has been very vocal about it. so too Watson, JYS, gary anderson, andrew benson, james allen etc etc etc, does their points count??? nop. vettel may give him a win or to, if the WDC is secured enough, will webber take it??? maybe he'll be forced to. who knows.

Edited by eronrules, 26 March 2013 - 17:27.

[William Hunt]

With the championship in mind, Vettel will never do that, he also likes winning too much to sacrifice a win. And for Webber it would be rather humiliating. I can remember Senna giving a win to Gerhard Berger once, if my mind serves me correctly, but Senna & Berger were close friends off track.

[gillesthegenius]

Theres no point, he doesn't owe Webber anything.

+1

[beute]

Wow .. sometimes your posts are good and then .. sometimes ... .. just wow.

Anyways ..

The bottom line is Webber was in the lead with the wick turned down ... with the assumption he was not going to be overtaken. Whatever the distance to the end of the race is completely irrelevant as the protocol was to cruise to the finish while maintaining position.. What is so difficult for you to understand ? Gift from the team ? What an assumption to make.. how convenient for you to forget the need to preserve fuel/tyres/engines and gearboxes not to mention the possibility of losing one or both chassis over an unnecessary squabble if they allowed them to race to the end.

I doubt mark was on a turned down engine when the pass actually happened...
Vettel already tried to overtake him in the lap when Webber just left the pit, and it didnt work out.
Even stevie Wonder would've seen another attack in the DRS zone coming and would prepare the engine settings accordingly, and he doesnt even know anything about F1.

it was one of the closest overtaking moves in the whole race and it dragged on for more than just 2 corners, no way Mark would have managed to hang on so long with low revs and fuel saving.
You know, if you just look at the mercedes battle you will realize how "cruising" actually looks like. At this speed Rosberg could have had completed the pass in the first DRS zone already...

[Clatter]

For one, when has Webber actually helped Vettel, and when was it necessary (Brazil was moot in the end)?
Unless you believe Webber would give up his own victories to screw over Vettel, which, no matter how much he hates Vettel, I can not see happen. Ever.

I don't know. There might be quite a few occasions when he has been asked to hold station, but we have not been allowed to hear the messages. That's not the only way he could help\hinder. He could have a driver behind who he lets through scoring just enough to take the championship.

[eronrules]

If Vettel stole a legitimate win from Webber, by taking advantage of his turn down engine and eliminatimg the gap, what makes you think he will give up a win when he is deserving it on merit.

BTW, i was going to ask this question,

do we really know webber would have had the position at the end of the race??? for all the indication points to the fact that they were told to hold station. but that to save tire and fuel. but it's more than likely that they'd have given a chance to go at it.

perhaps vettels thinking was like this, he was on mediums, which though a tad faster would drop faster than red hards that webber was on, and he made the calculation that his best chance of overtaking webber was when the tires were at their prime. we all saw webber faded away towards the end of the race.

[Clatter]

I doubt mark was on a turned down engine when the pass actually happened...
Vettel already tried to overtake him in the lap when Webber just left the pit, and it didnt work out.
Even stevie Wonder would've seen another attack in the DRS zone coming and would prepare the engine settings accordingly, and he doesnt even know anything about F1.

it was one of the closest overtaking moves in the whole race and it dragged on for more than just 2 corners, no way Mark would have managed to hang on so long with low revs and fuel saving.
You know, if you just look at the mercedes battle you will realize how "cruising" actually looks like. At this speed Rosberg could have had completed the pass in the first DRS zone already...

He could have been on low settings when the attack began and turned them up once it started, by then he would already have lost the advantage.

[gillesthegenius]

I don't think anything will bring the trust back and the really interesting bit will be in the closing stages of the season if Vettel needs Webber's help to retain the WDC. There will be no reason to provide any help and it will be fun to watch if his actions cost Vettel.

Vettel would be a fool to expect Webber to be nothing but a hindrance in such a situation after what he did at Brazil last year. The only thing that Vettel should be concerned about is the trust of the team that he broke. Mending that should, god willing, be his priority now.

[EthanM]

There's nothing to forgive. Webber carries a chip the size of a boulder on his shoulder, the disdain he is receiving is apt considering his behavior in Brazil alone.

[Clatter]

Vettel would be a fool to expect Webber to be nothing but a hindrance in such a situation after what he did at Brazil last year. The only thing that Vettel should be concerned about is the trust of the team that he broke. Mending that should, god willing, be his priority now.

I agree. I'm just hoping Webber has a chance to exact some revenge. It would be so funny to see the faces at RB.

[SpaMaster]

If he does give back 7 pts to Webber, all would be forgiven.

But I have many questions about this very possible situation. If Vettel gives back the position, what should we make of situations when Webber attacked Vettel against team orders? Does Webber deserve that? Would Vettel take Webber out of the picture and do it just for the team? Does the team really want it? Are they really so unhappy about gaining 7 pt lead on Alonso. Let's face they are not really thinking much of a Webber championship. As a Raikkonen fan first and foremost, I would much rather not have those 7 pts go to Vettel. You can be sure what Ferrari wants.

[Clatter]

If he does give back 7 pts to Webber, all would be forgiven.

But I have many questions about this very possible situation. If Vettel gives back the position, what should we make of situations when Webber attacked Vettel against team orders? Does Webber deserve that? Would Vettel take Webber out of the picture and do it just for the team? Does the team really want it? Are they really so unhappy about gaining 7 pt lead on Alonso. Let's face they are not really thinking much of a Webber championship. As a Raikkonen fan first and foremost, I would much rather not have those 7 pts go to Vettel. You can be sure what Ferrari wants.

Do you really believe that? I doubt the points are the big issue now, it's the act itself.

[Goron3]

In the long term, it's not what he did to webber that's the problem but more the negative image he's given the team, particularly Christian Horner who has been made to look as though he has no authority over his own team (compared to say Ross Brawn). I don't know what Seb could ever do to fix that.

[Sakae]

Even if such data exists it really doesn't matter. Webber was told to cruise and that Vettel would not attack.

I don't think anything will bring the trust back and the really interesting bit will be in the closing stages of the season if Vettel needs Webber's help to retain the WDC. There will be no reason to provide any help and it will be fun to watch if his actions cost Vettel.

This exchange started on the claim, that Webber had this race in his pocket, whereas Sakae says - not so fast, because result without pit-wall involvement was far from being conclusive. With gap of 3 sec, plenty real states to cover, and having a weak driver ahead of him is not much. His main worries would have been from being run off the road, but nothing more.

[gillesthegenius]

I agree. I'm just hoping Webber has a chance to exact some revenge. It would be so funny to see the faces at RB.

If anything, I see this as sweet revenge for Silvo11.

[mnmracer]

In the long term, it's not what he did to webber that's the problem but more the negative image he's given the team, particularly Christian Horner who has been made to look as though he has no authority over his own team (compared to say Ross Brawn). I don't know what Seb could ever do to fix that.

Aside from what people are yelling left and right, consider the two scenario's:

1. your least-performing driver disobeys you three times, twice actively endangering one world drivers championship.
2. your best-performing driver disobeys you once, putting Red Bull's most likely championship contender in a better position.

How could anyone reasonably think that scenario 2 makes Horner looks weak, yet scenario 1 doesn't?"

[rijole1]

In the long term, it's not what he did to webber that's the problem but more the negative image he's given the team, particularly Christian Horner who has been made to look as though he has no authority over his own team (compared to say Ross Brawn). I don't know what Seb could ever do to fix that.

[beute]

He could have been on low settings when the attack began and turned them up once it started, by then he would already have lost the advantage.

nope.

As I said, Vettel already tried to overtake him when Webber just came out of the box.
He didnt manage to pass him though, he had to wait for the DRS zone, and only then he passed him.

So if he was on low fuel/low rev settings,then it was only for the first fight, which he came out of ahead narrowly.
He had more than half a lap to change the settings up again before vettels second attempt.


He was not on low rev/fuel settings for the final fight, it was just way to close for that, there is no way.
Vettel had DRS twice and apparently the better engine settings and the result is the BY FAR CLOSEST FIGHT FOR A POSITION we had in the whole race?

edit: I forgot, vettel also had the faster tyre...

Edited by beute, 26 March 2013 - 18:00.

[SpaMaster]

Do you really believe that? I doubt the points are the big issue now, it's the act itself.

I know what you are saying. But overall, in public perception, I believe that will right the wrong. I am not sure it will happen though. I believe that's how the public would see it. He unfairly got those points. He must be the cunning Schumacher-like monster. Such people never give back the points/advantage. They believe they are right and entitled to it. By giving back the points, he can change that opinion. Because a real self-obsessed monster will not do that. I am not saying it should change the opinion or it is right, but I believe that would be the overall public perception.

beute: I have taken your post and replied it in the other 'Webber and Vettel - Who was right?' thread. I think you have made a fantastic point that made me think. Yours is one of the most convincing arguments I have heard in this subject.

Edited by SpaMaster, 26 March 2013 - 18:07.

[mnmracer]

If anything, I see this as sweet revenge for Silvo11.

And Abu Dhabi 2012.
And Brazil 2012.

Webber is a hypocrite.
He should at least own up to his actions and then tell us why he believes Vettel is not allowed to do what he did three times.

[Clatter]

I know what you are saying. But overall, in public perception, I believe that will right the wrong. I am not sure it will happen though. I believe that's how the public would see it. He unfairly got those points. He must be the cunning Schumacher-like monster. Such people never give back the points/advantage. They believe they are right and entitled to it. By giving back the points, he can change that opinion. Because a real self-obsessed monster will not do that. I am not saying it should change the opinion or it is right, but I believe that would be the overall public perception.

Some of the public maybe, but it's Webber's perception that is the biggest factor, especially if he comes into play later in the season. I know if I were in that situation Vettel giving up some points would not fix things for me.

[SpaMaster]

^ You are right. Nobody knows what Webber would think. But, like I said, if Vettel did it, it would be for the team, not for Webber. Because Webber does not deserve it anyway since he has disobeyed in the past. Also, I don't think Vettel ever expected any favours from Webber in his championship fight and never got much help in the past either. I don't think Vettel cares about that one bit. He would care about the team's perception and the public perception to some extent. Vettel would never trust Webber, not even in a similar team order situation when Webber is behind and may attack. He would just fight and be aware of Webber if he is behind just like any other. Vettel won't give back 14 pts back to Webber. 7 yes.

[OO7]

Webber got into front by strategy call, not merely by his driving skills.

You insist on trying to make a case regarding this strategy call, but the fact of the matter is that it was Vettel's choice on when to pit and it transpires that he was a little too early.

[beute]

In the long term, it's not what he did to webber that's the problem but more the negative image he's given the team, particularly Christian Horner who has been made to look as though he has no authority over his own team (compared to say Ross Brawn). I don't know what Seb could ever do to fix that.

Webber did the same 2 years ago, and nobody saw that as an attack towards Horners authority, at least no one gave a crap for long, it was quickly forgotten...

This quite clearly tells us that the issue isnt the disobeying of team orders itself, but rather WHO did the disobeying.

We have this shîtstorm simply because an already disliked person did what he did.

The same people that wanted Vettel to obey the team orders would be furious at Red bull if the driver situation would have been the other way around.

Vettel cant do anything right, for one simple reason:
People have formed their opinion already and the arguments they make are constructed around that opinion.
What one day was a good team order (vettel told to stay behind webber) is evil the next time (webber told to stay behind vettel).

Edited by beute, 26 March 2013 - 18:38.

[Atreiu]

Who knows? Maybe.