43 replies to this topic

[Nahnever]

Just before Ross Brawn enacted teams orders for the two drivers to maintain station, Hamilton & Rosberg were allowed to race and did so for a couple of laps straight.

However Rosberg struggled to make the moves stick: He would pass Hamilton on the corner before the DRS zone, only for Lewis to retake that position again thanks to DRS. My question is why did Rosberg fail to adapt after Lewis had pulled that move on him, not once, but multiple times? Why didn't he simply stay close to Lewis through the corner then use the DRS to his advantage?

Now I have seen Lewis pull this simple trick at least once before (Massa?) yet some drivers keep falling for it. Thoughts?

Edited by Nahnever, 26 March 2013 - 21:56.

[EthanM]

second DRS zone is a lot more traction sensitive, depending on setup/car traction changes when you are in somebody's gearbox, the Merc in general wasn't particularly good on traction in Malaysia

[Lights]

That has to be the quickest forgotten fight as it happened seconds before the Red Bull party started.

But yes I remember I was thinking the same during the race.

Why doesn't Rosberg do the smart thing?

And EthanM, Hamilton also had a Mercedes so that shouldn't really matter.

[EthanM]

That has to be the quickest forgotten fight as it happened seconds before the Red Bull party started.

But yes I remember I was thinking the same during the race.



And EthanM, Hamilton also had a Mercedes so that shouldn't really matter.

yeah I know, Hamilton's Merc was in clear air, Rosberg's wasn't, that's what I was saying. A not too brilliant traction car in dirty air

[cornermarker]

I saw so little of that, but did get the impression that maybe Lewis deliberately let Rosberg pass on the first straight, so that he could repass on the second straight. I would love to see the whole duel.

[PurpleHam]

I said the exact same thing in the Hamilton vs Rosberg thread.

If he did sucker Rosberg in, it is not the first, second or third time I've seen him do that move, there is nobody better in the sport than Hamilton attacking or defending, he knows all the moves, and then some.

Rosberg had his chances, and blew them, then Brawn stepped in.

[Lights]

yeah I know, Hamilton's Merc was in clear air, Rosberg's wasn't, that's what I was saying. A not too brilliant traction car in dirty air

That doesn't really make any sense. It's basically the widest hairpin on the calender, Rosberg could have easily stayed close enough in traction in order to steam by with DRS later. If Hamilton can do it to Rosberg (which he did) why couldn't Rosberg do it to Hamilton?

The only thing this fight showed is that Rosberg's killer instinct isn't on top level yet. I bet Hamilton couldn't believe his eyes each time Rosberg just dived on the inside of the hairpin.

[Sennasational]

That doesn't really make any sense. It's basically the widest hairpin on the calender, Rosberg could have easily stayed close enough in traction in order to steam by with DRS later. If Hamilton can do it to Rosberg (which he did) why couldn't Rosberg do it to Hamilton?

The only thing this fight showed is that Rosberg's killer instinct isn't on top level yet. I bet Hamilton couldn't believe his eyes each time Rosberg just dived on the inside of the hairpin.

Rosberg probably just kept overtaking Hamilton by accident. Happens all the time.

[EthanM]

That doesn't really make any sense. It's basically the widest hairpin on the calender, Rosberg could have easily stayed close enough in traction in order to steam by with DRS later. If Hamilton can do it to Rosberg (which he did) why couldn't Rosberg do it to Hamilton?

The only thing this fight showed is that Rosberg's killer instinct isn't on top level yet. I bet Hamilton couldn't believe his eyes each time Rosberg just dived on the inside of the hairpin.

it comes right after the biggest breaking event on the track, if the guy ahead sticks to the right side of the track it's difficult to straightline the exit to get the traction to DRS past a mechanically identical car.

[halifaxf1fan]

If Hamilton was sincere that he didn't feel he should have been on the podium, why did he keep retaking the position from Rosberg? Strikes me as odd, his words don't match his actions.

[FastnLoud]

I guess Nico isn't that clever after all then is he?

You would have thought after the first couple of passes he would have learnt to just stay behind Lewis and get him on the final Straight.

Edited by FastnLoud, 26 March 2013 - 22:26.

[robefc]

If Hamilton was sincere that he didn't feel he should have been on the podium, why did he keep retaking the position from Rosberg? Strikes me as odd, his words don't match his actions.

Depends whether he was anticipating quite how much fuel saving he was going to have to do versus rosberg in the remaining laps.

[Lights]

Rosberg probably just kept overtaking Hamilton by accident. Happens all the time.

Rosberg overtook because he could.

it comes right after the biggest breaking event on the track, if the guy ahead sticks to the right side of the track it's difficult to straightline the exit to get the traction to DRS past a mechanically identical car.

In the words of Nico Rosberg: "I can go so much faster"

No, it's not that difficult. I've seen dozens of overtakes this way, even without DRS.

[JonathanProc]

If Hamilton was sincere that he didn't feel he should have been on the podium, why did he keep retaking the position from Rosberg? Strikes me as odd, his words don't match his actions.

Because that happened before the team orders came into play.

[P123]

If Hamilton was sincere that he didn't feel he should have been on the podium, why did he keep retaking the position from Rosberg? Strikes me as odd, his words don't match his actions.

That was before the order came through, so not odd at all. I suppose if LH wanted to show he was really sincere he should have pulled into the pits on lap one, got out of his car and headed to the grandstands with a giant Rosberg flag.

[Sennasational]

Rosberg overtook because he could.


In the words of Nico Rosberg: "I can go so much faster"

No, it's not that difficult. I've seen dozens of overtakes this way, even without DRS.

it was a Vettel joke. Overtakes don't happen by accident.

[P123]

it comes right after the biggest breaking event on the track, if the guy ahead sticks to the right side of the track it's difficult to straightline the exit to get the traction to DRS past a mechanically identical car.

But that's what Hamilton was doing to Rosberg. Rosberg would pass before the hairpin (which was giving LH the DRS as LH was behind at the detection point), Hamilton would repass very early on the following straight. I suspect he was using his KERS too.

[Lights]

it was a Vettel joke. Overtakes don't happen by accident.

Ah ok! I almost got it actually

But to be fair Vettel never said 'by accident' instead I think he used words like 'messed up' and 'mistake'.

[Sennasational]

Ah ok! I almost got it actually

But to be fair Vettel never said 'by accident' instead I think he used words like 'messed up' and 'mistake'.

"We should have stayed in the positions we were in. I didn't ignore it [the order] on purpose but I messed up in that situation.

"It doesn't help his feelings right now. Apologies to Mark and now result is there, but all I can say is that I didn't do it deliberately."

Close enough

[OO7]

Rosberg probably just kept overtaking Hamilton by accident. Happens all the time.

[OO7]

If Hamilton was sincere that he didn't feel he should have been on the podium, why did he keep retaking the position from Rosberg? Strikes me as odd, his words don't match his actions.

Wrong thread for such a discussion. Try the verses thread as I'm sure that topic has been/is being covered there.

[Freung]

If Hamilton was sincere that he didn't feel he should have been on the podium, why did he keep retaking the position from Rosberg? Strikes me as odd, his words don't match his actions.

Well he probably doesnt spend enough time on these forums to know how we feel about his 'odd' contradictory behaviour.!! write to him maybe.

Edited by Freung, 27 March 2013 - 00:00.

[sharo]

Someone on this forum quoted Toto Wolf saying it was a tactic by the team to use the tow in the DRS zone for fuel saving.

[Buttoneer]

In the race thread someone referred to these drivers being caught in a DRS paradox. I lolled.

I can only assume that Nico thought he would make it stick at some point.

[Longtimefan]

Nico was a little silly, he should have used DRS zone one to get right up Lewis's gearbox and then DRS zone 2 to pass, then he'd have a full lap to try to pull 1 sec out.

[BillBald]

It was very puzzling, because Rosberg was the first driver I saw using the tactic of allowing the other car to go first so he could get the DRS. He did it in Malaysia 2011, and then again in Turkey.

[ethirtyfour]

It was very puzzling, because Rosberg was the first driver I saw using the tactic of allowing the other car to go first so he could get the DRS. He did it in Malaysia 2011, and then again in Turkey.

Lap 44



Lewis was leaving it wide open well before breaking point.

Lap 45



This time Rosberg is much closer on exit and passes half-way.

Looking back at the footage they were going
at it 100% before Brawn issued the orders.

[malibu]

rosberg is one of the best overtakers in the field. Berger calls him the gentle killer. i advise people who don't follow rosberg closely to see the moves and defenses of his last 4 seasons.
If you only concentrate on the malaysian race, you'll see how he passed Button and Massa.
make no mistakes, Rosberg may look gentle outside but inside the car, he is very efficient. I rate him among the best overtakers in F1.

Why then he was stuck behind hamilton after passing two times ? i concede i must see once again these actions but there is a posssibility rosberg had a different approach with his teammate. Maybe he didn't expect hamilton to repass him. He probably learnt from it.

Rosberg's reaction after the race "remember this one" shows he does not position himself as a number two. Once again, even if the call from RB came after some fights, it was tactless because of the style used, because rosberg wasn't allowed to pass even if he was faster

I have the feeling the main reason for RB intervention wasn't fuel but trying to secure positions. The fuel problem may have been exagerated for that purpose. the problem is that RB looked as if he wanted to secure more hamilton position than the team position?
That's what cause all the drama after the race, even in mercedes garage.

[Baddoer]

That could be not overtake but a foolish attempt to close gap on Red Bulls using DRS on each other. Typical oversmarted Brawn's tactic.

Edited by Baddoer, 27 March 2013 - 09:04.

[Henri Greuter]

Many talked about Vettel's stupid defence of his actions.

But another stupid comment I heard after the race was Lewis Hamilton saying that Nico should have been on the podium instead of him.
If he felt that he was indeed holding up Nico and compromising his race, nothing would have stopped Lewis to wave Nico by or tell Brawn that he was in trouble and that for the sake of the team he could have ordered Nico to pass him.

But he was happy to benefit from Brawn's protection....
Lousy defence....


Henri

[slmk]

second DRS zone is a lot more traction sensitive, depending on setup/car traction changes when you are in somebody's gearbox, the Merc in general wasn't particularly good on traction in Malaysia

Mercedes were actually very quick in S3, considering their top speed deficiency.

[Tonylog]

Many talked about Vettel's stupid defence of his actions.

But another stupid comment I heard after the race was Lewis Hamilton saying that Nico should have been on the podium instead of him.
If he felt that he was indeed holding up Nico and compromising his race, nothing would have stopped Lewis to wave Nico by or tell Brawn that he was in trouble and that for the sake of the team he could have ordered Nico to pass him.

But he was happy to benefit from Brawn's protection....
Lousy defence....


Henri

Good god since when do we expect racing drivers just to wave each other through. Some of the things you guys are saying about this is stupid considering you call yourself F1 fans.

[Jon83]

This battle showed why a track like that doesn't need two DRS zones next to each other.

A complete joke. It isn't as if DRS has just been introduced so no excuse for this.

[OO7]

This battle showed why a track like that doesn't need two DRS zones next to each other.

A complete joke. It isn't as if DRS has just been introduced so no excuse for this.

What about the Webber, Vettel battle. The first one where Lewis was hunting Vettel down, Vettel had DRS yet couldn't pass Mark. The second time around Vettel need both zones to have a go but didn't pass until T3. The zones worked very well, it's the differences in tyres, both compound and degradation/wear which on occasion will make things look too easy.

Also note the Kimi verses Sauber battle. It took him a while to make that one stick.

Edited by Obi Offiah, 27 March 2013 - 10:57.

[learningtobelost]

If Hamilton was sincere that he didn't feel he should have been on the podium, why did he keep retaking the position from Rosberg? Strikes me as odd, his words don't match his actions.

The team orders came afterwards.

[Anderis]

I guess Nico isn't that clever after all then is he?

You would have thought after the first couple of passes he would have learnt to just stay behind Lewis and get him on the final Straight.

I think Nico is the most intelligent driver in F1. AFAIK he knows 5 different languages and he was accepted to study aerodynamics in London.

You could see how clever he was playing with DRS in Turkey or Korea in 2011.

I don't understand why many of you assume they had been overtaking each other before they were ordered to keep their positions. First of all, Team Radio we hear in TV is usually delayed in time. We often hear what was said a few laps earlier. The second is that they could be even ordered before the start of the race that they wouldn't race each other in situations like these.

[Nahnever]

I think Nico is the most intelligent driver in F1. AFAIK he knows 5 different languages and he was accepted to study aerodynamics in London.

You could see how clever he was playing with DRS in Turkey or Korea in 2011.

I don't understand why many of you assume they had been overtaking each other before they were ordered to keep their positions. First of all, Team Radio we hear in TV is usually delayed in time. We often hear what was said a few laps earlier. The second is that they could be even ordered before the start of the race that they wouldn't race each other in situations like these.

Well Ross did quote that he had to step in after a while, so that was pure racing.

[Jon83]

What about the Webber, Vettel battle. The first one where Lewis was hunting Vettel down, Vettel had DRS yet couldn't pass Mark. The second time around Vettel need both zones to have a go but didn't pass until T3. The zones worked very well, it's the differences in tyres, both compound and degradation/wear which on occasion will make things look too easy.

Also note the Kimi verses Sauber battle. It took him a while to make that one stick.

Sorry but with regard to Hamilton / Rosberg, DRS did not work at all well in my opinion and that had little to do with the tyres.

[GlenP]

I just assumed that Hamilton was using a turned-down engine, but turned it up again each time he needed to re-take the place. If that carried on, he would run out of fuel, hence the team order.

It is pretty unlikely that Rosberg, of all people, hadn't worked out the technicalities of it all - to say the least.

[PayasYouRace]

Given that they were essentially just taking it in turns and not fighting, I assumed it was a bit of tactical driving. Maybe using the DRS to benefit both drivers and try to catch the Red Bulls?

[OO7]

Sorry but with regard to Hamilton / Rosberg, DRS did not work at all well in my opinion and that had little to do with the tyres.

Whenever one car is quite a bit slower than the other (usually tyres, but fuel saving also), DRS will often make for an easy pass. Nico had an easy pass available to him, if he had used the first zone just to get as close as possible and the second zone to pass. I remember a couple of years ago Lewis did something similar with MSc in Shanghai. He initiated a complete pass on Michael way too early down the long back straight. Michael then dived back into his slim stream and almost retook the position again.

[OO7]

Given that they were essentially just taking it in turns and not fighting, I assumed it was a bit of tactical driving. Maybe using the DRS to benefit both drivers and try to catch the Red Bulls?

I don't think that was the case, as Nico would have been faster out on his own.

[OO7]

I just assumed that Hamilton was using a turned-down engine, but turned it up again each time he needed to re-take the place. If that carried on, he would run out of fuel, hence the team order.

If Rosberg had stayed close behind Hamilton in the first zone and taken DRS in the second, even with a turned up engine lewis wouldn't have been able to regain the position. Even so , one can argue that Rosberg could have turned his engine up for that brief moment and got the job done.

[PayasYouRace]

I don't think that was the case, as Nico would have been faster out on his own.

Maybe. Either way it didn't look like a genuine fight for position, like the Red Bulls.