84 replies to this topic

[fabr68]

Do you really think Raikkonen would play the team order and politics games with Vettel at Red Bull?

[Longtimefan]

It's been done, Alain Prost, multiple WDC was sacked during the 1991 season by Ferrari after comparing the car to a truck.

[ensign14]

Ferrari also sacked Rene Arnoux for unnamed offences, linked variously to the marching powder or a rather cute female who was married to a senior Ferrari exec and/or the granddaughter of another.

[JimiKart]

RB could easily get rid of Seb today, probably without cost as he no doubt violated his contract, I really hope they do, he could be replaced by any number of drivers whom I'm sure would do just as well given the car Seb has.

[SpaMaster]

^ You do, huh?

Edited by SpaMaster, 27 March 2013 - 12:30.

[andrewr]

Could be as easy as "Sebastian, it's time to do a meet and greet with the people of Queanbeyan"

[BackOnTop]

Does anyone know how it generally works if a team has a contract with a driver, but the driver becomes disgruntled and there is a possibility that he might be a liability rather than a "teammate" for the rest of the season?

I know about Ferrari paying Kimi Raikkonen $ 20 Million for not racing in 2010!! I also know about Lotus not paying anything substancial to Nick Heidfeld for not racing mid-season in 2011.

So it's all about a team paying a driver according to his status in Formula 1 if the ties break....! Also, World Class drivers will have World Class contracts keeping their personal interest "screw free", while regular drivers are basically at the mercy of the contracts the team offer to them.

[Jejking]

Could be as easy as "Sebastian, it's time to do a meet and greet with the people of Queanbeyan"

Sorry Seb, the LZ is too hot. Multi 21!

[wj_gibson]

Just as an aside, were the reasons why Frentzen was sacked mis-season in 2001 by Jordan ever made clear?

[BackOnTop]

RB could easily get rid of Seb today, probably without cost as he no doubt violated his contract, I really hope they do, he could be replaced by any number of drivers whom I'm sure would do just as well given the car Seb has.

Yeah, possible candidates to replace Vettel at RedBull mid-season are Petrov, Kova, Koba, Buemi!! Great, RedBull should go for it just so that Ferrari can beat the sh!t out of them by year end.

[SonJR]

Sorry Seb, the LZ is too hot. Multi 21!

Iirc, Eddie Jordan and the technical team thought he meddled too much in the running of the team and technical side of it. I remember Eddie saying something along the lines of 'when a driver wants to design the car as well, things tend to get complicated'. Another thing that probably played in to it is that Jordan and Frentzen were just disappointed with one another, because they couldn't follow up on a very succesful 1999 campaign in 2000 and 2001.

[JimiKart]

Yeah, possible candidates to replace Vettel at RedBull mid-season are Petrov, Kova, Koba, Buemi!! Great, RedBull should go for it just so that Ferrari can beat the sh!t out of them by year end.

I'm sure RB could use one of many drivers around, given that the car is in a class of it's own, it could be effectively driven by any of the drivers you mention and a few you didn't.

[2ms]

RB could easily get rid of Seb today, probably without cost as he no doubt violated his contract, I really hope they do, he could be replaced by any number of drivers whom I'm sure would do just as well given the car Seb has.

You make Webber sound like he is the worst driver in F1 bc he got 6th in the championship last year

[JimiKart]

You make Webber sound like he is the worst driver in F1 bc he got 6th in the championship last year

I never said anything about Webbo, but with regard to Seb, he barely won the title last with a car that outclassed the field the likes of which has only happened twice before (one of them being another RB car) in F1 history.

Based on that I think it's fair to say any number of drivers could have done just as well given the crazy car advantage RB had, so why should Horner allow himself to be castrated over and over by Seb? It's clear from the worlds headlines that Horner is looking quite impotent as a result of Seb's action last weekend and his other actions prior to that, so if I were Horner I'd be looking to put Seb in his place (race ban) or dispose of him for contract violation, asap.

[7MGTEsup]

I never said anything about Webbo, but with regard to Seb, he barely won the title last with a car that outclassed the field the likes of which has only happened twice before (one of them being another RB car) in F1 history.

That must be some good **** you smoke, the red bull didn't get its **** together till the second half of the season. And your F1 history must be pretty bad too as car domination has happend much more than twice before lol.

Lotus 72
Lotus 79
McLaren MP4/2
McLaren MP4/4
Williams FW14B
Ferrari 2002
Ferrari 2004
Redbull RB7

And many others from earlier in racing history.

Edited by 7MGTEsup, 27 March 2013 - 13:44.

[JeanClaude]

It's clear from the worlds headlines that Horner is looking quite impotent as a result of Seb's action last weekend and his other actions prior to that, so if I were Horner I'd be looking to put Seb in his place (race ban) or dispose of him for contract violation, asap.

And then there's the real world with real team-bosses and real drivers who as consummate professionals work out silly incidents like this behind closed doors.

Come China the Red Bull train will be on track again and Seb will be trying to secure a 4th WDC on the trot with the full support of his team, Horner, dr. Marko and Didi Mateschitz.
And Mark will do what he's handsomely paid for and bring in valuable points for WCC as a good boy.

There will be no drivers to get rid of, in the real world

JC

[lustigson]

well the CRB assumes the team has the money to pay damages to the driver it wants to fire, in 91 footwork was so overextended I doubt they could buy Caffi lunch

And there was no CRB, in 1991, IIRC.

[SpaMaster]

I never said anything about Webbo, but with regard to Seb, he barely won the title last with a car that outclassed the field the likes of which has only happened twice before (one of them being another RB car) in F1 history.

Based on that I think it's fair to say any number of drivers could have done just as well given the crazy car advantage RB had, so why should Horner allow himself to be castrated over and over by Seb? It's clear from the worlds headlines that Horner is looking quite impotent as a result of Seb's action last weekend and his other actions prior to that, so if I were Horner I'd be looking to put Seb in his place (race ban) or dispose of him for contract violation, asap.

That is signature worthy stuff!

I'm sure RB could use one of many drivers around, given that the car is in a class of it's own, it could be effectively driven by any of the drivers you mention and a few you didn't.

This as well. You think Kova, Buemi, Petrov and Kobayashi could have won the championship with that car? Or, are you speaking for Ferrari? Come on man, do you really think what you write makes sense? F1 history started only when Vettel started winning championships?

Edited by SpaMaster, 27 March 2013 - 17:00.

[swerved]

"Do you really what you write makes sense", Hmmm

Anyway,

I've always thought the kimster would be a good fit at RB, but that was in the past, these days i think slightly differently, he's really settled in at Lotus, and as others have commented seems happier than ever before in F1, a large part of the credit for that must obviously be attributed to Boullier & Co, who have really allowed him to be himself, and its paid dividends for both parties i think, I'm not as certain as i was that Kimi would even consider going to Red Bull, especially if the E21 is a decent car.

[fastdriver]

Helmut?

Hahahahahahahaha!

[Sin]

That is signature worthy stuff!

This as well. You think Kova, Buemi, Petrov and Kobayashi could have won the championship with that car? Or, are you speaking for Ferrari? Come on man, do you really what you write makes sense? F1 history started only when Vettel started winning championships?

yeah only the RB wasn't the fastest and best car... thats what Alonso constantly shouted out... cause he wanted to look good...

[RealRacing]

I never said anything about Webbo, but with regard to Seb, he barely won the title last with a car that outclassed the field the likes of which has only happened twice before (one of them being another RB car) in F1 history.

Samurai is that you?

[2ms]

Webbo is a better driver than some of you think. He is not that terrible. He got 6th in the WDC. But that is because Vettel is probably the top driver in F1 right now and Red Bull probably only had the 3rd or at best 2nd car last season.

Anyway, I fear that this championship may be destroyed because I fear that the current champion may be done in by a disgruntled teammate. It certainly is in Briatore's interest that that happen since the runner up to WDC is another Briatore client and we can see the intensity of Briatore's current campaign to exacerbate the problems in Red Bull. We will have to see. The best thing for RBR is clearly to find a way of keeping Webber away from Vettel.

According to many people, McL had the same problem in 2007. In that case Alonso was very unhappy and felt unfairly treated. Some have gone as far as to say it cost McL a chance at the championship in a season where they should have won with the best car. That was with all the animosity kept under wraps as much as possible. At RBR this year you can see that, not only are things not under wraps, but the gloves are utterly off and there is an intense negative campaign coming from the Webber/Briatore side of the garage.

Sad times for purity of sport in F1. Team orders left and right. Blatant digruntlement and political maneuvering among teammates. It's like American Pro Wrestling. Looking forward to things getting back to serious sport. Hope something can be done to stop the situation at RBR.

Edited by 2ms, 27 March 2013 - 17:11.

[kenkip]

I have not read through the thread so I do apologize if i raise a point that has been raised.
Many people have said that Seb has lost the trust of his team,(team being Horner,Newey,Marko)
but,there is Vettel's side of the garage,mechanics and engineers who have achieved so much success with Seb,£10000 bonus per championship winning season,plus the recognition and adulation being involved with the triple winning world champion.With all that in mind,which side will you be on?
My point is,Horner has to consider this,Seb is not all alone in this fight,guys like Rocky will fight his corner,remember that.
As I have been saying,all this comes down to Redbull,a team that produces so many world championship winning cars needs a clear no1 no 2 policy,harsh on Webber and his fans but this will avoid such situations.
Think about it,if Alonso was behind Massa,(and please reply this if you think otherwise)do you think they would have allowed Massa to win?Would it have raised such an issue?I dont think so.Ferrari have their stuff sorted out,it is time redbull do.

[SpartanChas]

Just why the heck would Kimi ever want to leave a team he a) is happy in, b)is the number one driver in and c) is on the way up to competing for regular wins, to go and be Vettel's number two?

[Paste]

See Villeneuve, Jacques and the BAR fiasco...

[TheUltimateWorrier]

Just why the heck would Kimi ever want to leave a team he a) is happy in, b)is the number one driver in and c) is on the way up to competing for regular wins, to go and be Vettel's number two?

I agree with this, I can't buy the 'Kimi to Red Bull in 2014' rumours, as like you say why would Kimi leave a team where he seems content?

[fabr68]

This thread is funny. Webber and Vettel are going nowhere. Red Bull needs both drivers to secure the championships and Vettel needs Webber performance to achieve his WDC. If Webber drove like Massa last season, Vettel would not be 3xWDC.

[rolf123]

Where did you get this crazy idea that he has breached his contract? He has not.

Disobeying your boss is not a breach of contract.

[2ms]

This thread is funny. Webber and Vettel are going nowhere. Red Bull needs both drivers to secure the championships and Vettel needs Webber performance to achieve his WDC. If Webber drove like Massa last season, Vettel would not be 3xWDC.

Let's hope you're right and that the season doesn't devolve further into the soap opera direction with WDC contest out the door. I guess there is nothing RBR can do about having a disgruntled driver. Maybe if they command Vettel to gift him a win again, and Vettel gives it, then he will be happy. The way Briatore demonstrates an objective of stirring things up as much as possible is a negative sign, however. The problem should correct itself at the end of the season as I believe it's quite unlikely Webber will not retire.

[andysaint]

Employment law is very difficult. The value of the contract, length, future bonus payment, future earnings are all taken into account along with the procedure you dismiss someone. A mutually agreed figure is cheaper than leaving it with lawyers.

[DILLIGAF]

I never said anything about Webbo, but with regard to Seb, he barely won the title last with a car that outclassed the field the likes of which has only happened twice before (one of them being another RB car) in F1 history.

Based on that I think it's fair to say any number of drivers could have done just as well given the crazy car advantage RB had, so why should Horner allow himself to be castrated over and over by Seb? It's clear from the worlds headlines that Horner is looking quite impotent as a result of Seb's action last weekend and his other actions prior to that, so if I were Horner I'd be looking to put Seb in his place (race ban) or dispose of him for contract violation, asap.

Any number of drivers I can only think of three drivers who could possibly have done as well as Seb in the RB. Alonso, Hamilton or Kimi.

[Lotusseven]

I have to ask...How can a driver get rid of his seat in a team for example after 5-6 races ?
Is it as simple as just to quit ?

[rasul]

Based on that I think it's fair to say any number of drivers could have done just as well given the crazy car advantage RB had, so why should Horner allow himself to be castrated over and over by Seb?

I think the mere fact that RB are putting up with Vet's ego proves that they have a different opinion on that, and they would know better than us. They would know for certain if Vettel's success was down only to the car or not. The fact that they're putting up with Vettel's bossiness is very telling.

[redbroccoli]

The closest thing I can remember to this is Ferrari firing Prost in the early 90s.
How did Ferrari managed to do that?