132 replies to this topic

[Black Widow]

I have asked this question a number of times in previous threads but still have not received an answer (tends to get lost in the shuffle )

Horner has stated -

Asked what Vettel meant when he said he had not passed Webber deliberately, Horner said: "He felt he hadn't heard the call. That it was unclear to him what the instruction was. But then again, we had the same thing in Brazil the other way around.

and

If you think of Brazil at the last race, Mark was told to hold position and started racing him. Now, these things happen.

My only recollection of anything where Webber went to pass Vettel was at the re-start and my thinking on that is what a wrote in another thread....

If he (Horner) is talking about the restart then that was solely down to Vettel being asleep **. Kobayashi passed Webber on the inside, Webber moved to the outside and blocked the Force India that was coming up. Webber then bailed out of Turn 1 (which cost him positions) so that he would leave room for Vettel.

If you don't believe me....

at 1:28

Other than the start I can not think of another incident.

** ThomFi has pointed out that Vettel was not asleep as I put it but was infact running a reduced engine map (which I did not know)

"So we changed the engine mapping to try and minimise the exhaust temperature. We lost a bit of performance in the process and just tried to get it home."

Anyhow, I would be interested if anybody knows exactly what Horner is talking about.

Thanks

[benzine]

not again please please please discuss it in the uberthread (33 pages )

[GhostR]

Wouldn't be surprised if Mark was meant to stay behind Vettel off the start line. But the way their starts panned out, that would have been far more risky than what actually happened on the run to and through the first corner.

I'm also a little surprised that Brazil is being bandied about by the team, given that the way the race panned out the best thing Webber could do to help Vettel was do everything possible to finish ahead of Alonso. I'm sure that if the situation had been such that Mark dropping back behind Vettel would have changed the championship result he would have done so. But there was no point doing it in the end.

[Black Widow]

not again please please please discuss it in the uberthread (33 pages )

I too am sorry to start a new thread but trust me, I too have read most of those other threads.

Everybody mentions Horners comments but nobody seems to explain them and as I said I have asked a number of times.

Sorry benzine.

[JeanClaude]

Jay great another thread about Vettel, Webbo and team orders

Both dr Marko -before the season- and Horner -after the last race- have confirmed that Mark's actions in Brazil were less than helpful to the team.

I'd take their words for it and keep it at what goes around, comes around
Happy Easter!

JC

[eronrules]

NOt AnotheR Thread

Make it STAHP!!!

Think of the childern ... the children

[GlenP]

Jay great another thread about Vettel, Webbo and team orders

Both dr Marko -before the season- and Horner -after the last race- have confirmed that Mark's actions in Brazil were less than helpful to the team.

I'd take their words for it and keep it at what goes around, comes around ;)
Happy Easter!

JC

It is precisely because of the proliferation on other threads that I would actually appreciate a clear answer to this question. I would take H Marko's and C Horner's words for it, but what actually is their word? What was the offence?

[JeanClaude]

It is precisely because of the proliferation on other threads that I would actually appreciate a clear answer to this question. I would take H Marko's and C Horner's words for it, but what actually is their word? What was the offence?

Go right ahead but I doubt we'll become any wiser regarding possibly disobeyed team orders in Brazil. That info is Red Bull's only and I doubt they'll be inclined to share.

So we get a thread full of conspiracy theories and crystal ball watchers or we are left to discuss Mark's -unhelpful- actions in the race that we all have seen.

The former doesn't interest me, the latter is boring and has been done to death already over the winter.

I'd rather go and find some Easter eggs

JC

[GlenP]

I wish journalists weren't so supine and needy - if Horner or Marko refer to this unhelpfulness, why the hell does the journalist not insist that they spell out the details, or otherwise refuse to report it? I find it unacceptable that the media are a willing channel in the spreading of vague innuendo - the media should seek clarity, not conspire to adding to the murk.

[swerved]

I wish journalists weren't so supine and needy - if Horner or Marko refer to this unhelpfulness, why the hell does the journalist not insist that they spell out the details, or otherwise refuse to report it? I find it unacceptable that the media are a willing channel in the spreading of vague innuendo - the media should seek clarity, not conspire to adding to the murk.

It wasn't just Horner and Marko, Briatore slammed Schumey for assisting Red Bulls win and said that Webber was the only one who helped Ferrari.

[mnmracer]

The most likely situation they were referring to was
1. that Webber squeezed Vettel at the start, while there was no need for him to do that as there was 4 - 5 meters of space next to him.
and
2. the moment Vettel came up to Webber in lap 5 or 6, and Vettel was trying to go back to the front. That would have been a real teamorder moment (let him pass).

But the fact we don't know the details, does not mean it did not happen.

[One]

I wish journalists weren't so supine and needy - if Horner or Marko refer to this unhelpfulness, why the hell does the journalist not insist that they spell out the details, or otherwise refuse to report it? I find it unacceptable that the media are a willing channel in the spreading of vague innuendo - the media should seek clarity, not conspire to adding to the murk.

if it end with clarity soon enough, this is definitely crucial.

[fabr68]

Wow. Is Horner openly admitting he cant control his drivers?

[Diablobb81]

He didn't. High wind made him drift towards Vettel.

[goingthedistance]

All Mark did was try and look after his own start. He probably knew that if Vettel was in front of him he'd have to play rear gunner all afternoon and wanted to have a chance at winning the race (Brazil is one of Webber's good tracks). It wasn't the best team-play given what was on the line, but I've seen Vettel squeeze Webber much worse than that off the start. I think the incident was blown out of proportion by Marko and Seb. It was Seb's collision with Senna that was the issue and Webber had nothing to do with that. If Webber had let Vettel past off the start who is to say he wouldn't have collided with the two guys in front? Brazil is a very tight circuit on the first lap, stuff always happens.

The rest of the race Mark did as instructed, except for having to pull out of overtaking a much slower Vettel.

[plumtree]

http://forums.autosp...w...t&p=6053361

If you speak German Servus TV has a doc in 15 minutes. Don't know if it gets streamed, it should be uploaded pretty soon.

Marko also said that they had a discussion with Mark and Seb before the race about the behaviour in T1. Needless to say Mark didn't seem to have got the gist of it and after the race there was a chat with Mark about this and that, but not done by Marko. Anyway Seb seemed to be pretty relaxed about it. Of course who knows what is going on behind the scene.

AFAIK that was all we heard from the team's side on the matter, until Horner brought it up again last weekend. There's nothing strange to me. Why would the team make a big deal out of it in public, when they got the championship in their hands anyway?

Edited by plumtree, 28 March 2013 - 13:32.

[GlenP]

The most likely situation they were referring to was
1. that Webber squeezed Vettel at the start, while there was no need for him to do that as there was 4 - 5 meters of space next to him.
and
2. the moment Vettel came up to Webber in lap 5 or 6, and Vettel was trying to go back to the front. That would have been a real teamorder moment (let him pass).

Thanks - that saves me trawling back. I don't recall it being all that obvious at the time, but there again I don't really recall what I was doing last night.

Done with the subject now - just wanted a nice clear answer.

[goingthedistance]

I do wonder if this is the reason Ciaron Pilbeam - Mark's engineer - ended up at Lotus? Was he nudged out for not controlling his driver?

[mnmracer]

All Mark did was try and look after his own start.

There was no need for him to squeeze his team-mate if there is 5 meters of space on the other side.
This was not 'looking after your start'.

He probably knew that if Vettel was in front of him he'd have to play rear gunner all afternoon and wanted to have a chance at winning the race (Brazil is one of Webber's good tracks). It wasn't the best team-play given what was on the line, but I've seen Vettel squeeze Webber much worse than that off the start. I think the incident was blown out of proportion by Marko and Seb. It was Seb's collision with Senna that was the issue and Webber had nothing to do with that. If Webber had let Vettel past off the start who is to say he wouldn't have collided with the two guys in front? Brazil is a very tight circuit on the first lap, stuff always happens.

The rest of the race Mark did as instructed, except for having to pull out of overtaking a much slower Vettel.

Webber is playing all high and mighty about 'not trusting Seb anymore'.
Whether or not he felt he was right to fight for the win in Brazil, his team ordered him not to fight with Seb.
He did.
He disobeyed the teamorder.

That's all there is to it in this discussion.

[goingthedistance]

In my opinion we would have seen nothing better from Vettel if the roles were reversed in that situation, perhaps worse. This is proven by his behaviour in Malaysia. Neither of these guys is lily white in this matter.

Mark has now gotten out of the way of Vettel on numerous occasions, ruining his race in Brazil and Abu Dhabi as a result. I may have missed it, but I can't say I've ever seen Vettel do that for Mark. On top of that Vettel has benefited on numerous occasions from the hold the 1-2 after the final pit stop rule, but is now unwilling to give back.

Edited by goingthedistance, 28 March 2013 - 13:51.

[swerved]

In my opinion we would have seen nothing better from Vettel if the roles were reversed in that situation, perhaps worse. This is proven by his behaviour in Malaysia. Neither of these guys is lily white in this matter.

Mark has now gotten out of the way of Vettel on numerous occasions, ruining his race in Brazil and Abu Dhabi as a result. I may have missed it, but I can't say I've ever seen Vettel do that for Mark. On top of that Vettel has benefited on numerous occasions from the hold the 1-2 after the final pit stop rule, but is now unwilling to give back.

Pit Radio: "Mark, Sebastian will move out of your way if can catch him, please be sure to unlap yourself first though"

[mnmracer]

Mark has now gotten out of the way of Vettel on numerous occasions
...
On top of that Vettel has benefited on numerous occasions from the hold the 1-2 after the final pit stop rule

Unless you can name those 'numerous ocasions', that is simply untrue

ruining his race in Brazil and Abu Dhabi as a result.

Wait, so Mark gets to be upset because his attempts to screw over Vettel 'ruined his race'?
Don't be rediculous.

I may have missed it, but I can't say I've ever seen Vettel do that for Mark.

Ignorance is not an excuse to make false statements. Vettel was the first to receive a teamorder in their time as team-mates, in Turkey 2009, and obliged.
Even in this very race, Vettel was given a teamorder not to attack (lap 24) and he did.
Not to mention all the undercuts Mark was given because it would help him more than it would Vettel.

Unless you can substantiate your claims, they are simply untrue.

[SpaMaster]

I do wonder if this is the reason Ciaron Pilbeam - Mark's engineer - ended up at Lotus? Was he nudged out for not controlling his driver?

A race engineer's job is not to control the driver. He can only pass info to driver and advise when asked on info. The previous post clearly states it was a discussion with drivers. An engineer can't do much from the moment the light goes off to the moment they get to the first corner.

[Black Widow]

http://forums.autosp...w...t&p=6053361

If you speak German Servus TV has a doc in 15 minutes. Don't know if it gets streamed, it should be uploaded pretty soon.

Marko also said that they had a discussion with Mark and Seb before the race about the behaviour in T1. Needless to say Mark didn't seem to have got the gist of it and after the race there was a chat with Mark about this and that, but not done by Marko. Anyway Seb seemed to be pretty relaxed about it. Of course who knows what is going on behind the scene.

AFAIK that was all we heard from the team's side on the matter, until Horner brought it up again last weekend. There's nothing strange to me. Why would the team make a big deal out of it in public, when they got the championship in their hands anyway?

Thanks plumtree

This so far seems to be the only incident "talked about" by RBR.

To me, it doesn't seem to warrant Horner bringing it up as justification for the actions of the weekend.

My analogy, it's like comparing a "storm in a tea cup" to a "nuclear holocaust".

(OK, maybe that's a bit over the top but you get what I mean. )

[Skinnyguy]

Making life harder for his WDC contender teammate than for the direct rivals.

[Black Widow]

Making life harder for his WDC contender teammate than for the direct rivals.

Maybe, maybe not.

A point that most people seem to miss is that RBR would have had at least two strategies in play that day to win the WDC for Vettel:

Strategy 1 - The obvious one.

Get Vettel to the finish line no less than 13 points behind Alonso i.e. if Alonso was 1st Vettel needed to be 4th

Strategy 2 - Not quite so obvious.

If Vettel DNF (which almost happened) then Webbers job would have been to keep Alonso off the podium. Remember the McLaren's had been quick in qualifying and Webber has a good record in Brazil. There could have been the situation where Vettel fans were actually cheering Button, Hamilton and Webber to fill the podium. (Now, that would have hurt )

So, the way I look at it, Webber was was between a "rock and a hard place". He too had to stay in touch with the leaders.

Do I think his start was "sloppy"? Yes, but with the fast starting Ferrari's he actually did a good job a keeping Alonso behind him.

Do I think his start showed malice? No

[skid solo]

It is precisely because of the proliferation on other threads that I would actually appreciate a clear answer to this question. I would take H Marko's and C Horner's words for it, but what actually is their word? What was the offence?

[Sakae]

I have asked this question a number of times in previous threads but still have not received an answer (tends to get lost in the shuffle )

Horner has stated -


and



My only recollection of anything where Webber went to pass Vettel was at the re-start and my thinking on that is what a wrote in another thread....

If he (Horner) is talking about the restart then that was solely down to Vettel being asleep **. Kobayashi passed Webber on the inside, Webber moved to the outside and blocked the Force India that was coming up. Webber then bailed out of Turn 1 (which cost him positions) so that he would leave room for Vettel.

If you don't believe me....

at 1:28

Other than the start I can not think of another incident.

** ThomFi has pointed out that Vettel was not asleep as I put it but was infact running a reduced engine map (which I did not know)


Anyhow, I would be interested if anybody knows exactly what Horner is talking about.

Thanks

Apparently RB management disagree with you what Webber could or should have done. Problem alone is not only self-directed Webber's strategy in that race once lights went off, but also that Webber's fans choose to ignore it, thus we have now these endless apologetically prevalent postings.

Edited by Sakae, 29 March 2013 - 09:15.

[bourbon]

Webber disobeyed team orders in Brazil in nearly the exact same way Seb did it in Malaysia.

Makes you consider this was the payback rather than another owed...

[robefc]

Webber disobeyed team orders in Brazil in nearly the exact same way Seb did it in Malaysia.

Makes you consider this was the payback rather than another owed...

I'm not sure about the exact wrongs or rights but for such a self styled straight shooting guy Mark is good at playing the injured princess when it suits him.

Brazil shouldn't have even need a team order, he should be doing everything to help win a championship for the team.

[wingwalker]

That's a blatant 'hey, what Vettel did was not that bad, beacuse..." spin from Horner and Webber is not going to be happy after reading this.

[ArkZ]

Maybe he was talking about this http://www.youtube.c...jd9ExyXU#t=162s but it is hard to recognize it as a insubordination towards the team .

[mnmracer]

That's a blatant 'hey, what Vettel did was not that bad, beacuse..." spin from Horner and Webber is not going to be happy after reading this.

The point is, Webber has nothing to 'not be happy about'. You reap the seeds you sow.

[GlenP]

At some point normal service has to be resumed, or they go their separate ways. It's a bit like a civil conflict - eventually the cycle of revenge has to stop and truth and reconciliation comes in. Vettel started it in Turkey, blatantly overtaking Webber even though Webber had the engine turned down, and to add insult and potential injury to the that he moved sideways into his team-mate and then had the gall to call him crazy. Everything else is afters from that one event - Vettel is indeed reaping what he sowed. Mark could have hunted Vettel down using the hard tyre in Malaysia, be he was man enough to break the cycle and not do it.

As for Brazil - meh. Webber did let him past later in the race.

Edited by GlenP, 29 March 2013 - 10:39.

[Black Widow]

Webber disobeyed team orders in Brazil in nearly the exact same way Seb did it in Malaysia.

Makes you consider this was the payback rather than another owed...

This thread is about how did Webber disobey team orders in Brazil. As you are so adamant that he disobeyed team orders then you must know the answer. Please let the rest of us know what you know. Thank you!

[Sakae]

...Mark could have hunted Vettel down using the hard tyre in Malaysia, be he was man enough to break the cycle and not do it...

Maybe so, but on the other hand he has realized defeat, and what we have is merely a broken man. You can put any label you wish on it.

Edited by Sakae, 29 March 2013 - 11:03.

[Black Widow]

Vettel started it in Turkey.

Actually, I think you find that it started 4 races before that but as that is not relevant to this thread I will leave that for another day.

[lwd]

Can't see what Mark did wrong in Brazil '12. Sure he was a little aggressive at the start, but that's all you can say really.

[mnmracer]

Vettel started it in Turkey

Aside from not understanding what happened in Turkey, the most heard argument on the pro-Webber side is 'it doesn't matter who did what before'.
Kinda failing that there.

[Black Widow]

Aside from not understanding what happened in Turkey, the most heard argument on the pro-Webber side is 'it doesn't matter who did what before'.
Kinda failing that there.

No, from what I can see in this thread the pro-Webber side is trying to understand what actually went on in Brazil. As you are one of the most vocal exponents in justifying Vettels actions last weekend due to Webbers actions in Brazil then you must know the answer. Please elaborate.

[EthanM]

When Briatore talks about Brazil and says "The only one who helped Ferrari was Webber" ( http://www.yallaf1.c...ing-schumacher/ ) and you 're wondering what on earth Webber did wrong then it may be time to take those rose tinted glasses off

Edited by EthanM, 29 March 2013 - 11:41.

[Sakae]

Perhaps premise of the whole thread is misleading, because it misstates the issue. Brazil 2012 was not much about Webber not obeying orders per se, but his, judged as antagonistic behavior towards Vettel after lights went off. "Experts" on this BB theorizing that Webber-darling had no chance but to push Vettel into situation that cost his teammate several places in crucial race of the season, but apparently, as it was reported in media (re: interview with Dr. Marko), Horner had a private talk with Webber about it after race. Why so, if Webber was without a blemish?

Of course I do not know what was said between those two, but I would understand if Vettel wasn't impressed later on, when all settled into quiet reflection; moreover, I also think this might have been an element behind his scream in the last race "get him out of may way". (Brazil and Turkey not forgotten)!

One should not forget that it was dramatic end of the season, and celebrations took over, but under different circumstances this would have been far large story than it actually was. Nail into coffin was Briatore's comment after race. Today to look for excuses for Webber is an exercise in wastefulness, and what's done is done.

Edited by Sakae, 29 March 2013 - 11:51.

[lwd]

When Briatore talks about Brazil and says "The only one who helped Ferrari was Webber" ( http://www.yallaf1.c...ing-schumacher/ ) and you 're wondering what on earth Webber did wrong then it may be time to take those rose tinted glasses off

Please, for those of us who are complete idiots. EXACTLY what did Webber do wrong in Brazil '12. ie on Lap x Webber did this.

[mnmracer]

Please, for those of us who are complete idiots. EXACTLY what did Webber do wrong in Brazil '12. ie on Lap x Webber did this.

You can bitch all you want, us not knowing the details doesn't change that those inside all say he put himself above the team.

[JimiKart]

Yes. we'll just have to take the word of "those inside" because even though it's plain to see Webbo did nothing, the team says he did... and sorry no, we don't have any specifics, just the word of Horner.

What bull schitt, that Horner really is challenging Ron Dennis for the prize of all time F1 weasel.

[Black Widow]

Perhaps premise of the whole thread is misleading, because it misstates the issue. Brazil 2012 was not much about Webber not obeying orders per se, .......

The premise of this thread is not misleading. It's very simple actually, how did Webber disobey team orders in Brazil?

Your discitation is quite eloquent and maybe should have started with "Once Upon a Time" but in summary it really on states one thing, you don't know!

[Black Widow]

You can bitch all you want, us not knowing the details doesn't change that those inside all say he put himself above the team.

So I presume you are saying you don't know either.

[One]

This thread is quicky moving into the discussion of own judgement.

The point of this tread was to see if Webber did disobey the team order in Brazil.

From the information posted on the facts, I do decline to say that Webber did not do anything wrong in terms of racing. But if his racing was not suiting to the team order? I am not sure as of now. Should someone possesses exact knowledge on what was said at the team's driver meeting before the start it would help establish knowledge to share with.

Seb's incident with Senna was directly to do with Senna and Seb as Webber was a car in front. But I must say this rear on incident reminds me of Seb-Alonso incident we just saw in Malaysia.

Edited by One, 29 March 2013 - 12:26.

[lwd]

You can bitch all you want, us not knowing the details doesn't change that those inside all say he put himself above the team.

Who's bitchin? If he did something so terrible, I'm sure we'd all know about it. We all saw the race - it wasn't held in secret - so what happened?

[Black Widow]

Yes. we'll just have to take the word of "those inside" because even though it's plain to see Webbo did nothing, the team says he did... and sorry no, we don't have any specifics, just the word of Horner.

What bull schitt, that Horner really is challenging Ron Dennis for the prize of all time F1 weasel.

An interesting thing is a SKY Sports article today

http://www1.skysport...or-rest-of-2013

Explaining the codes, Horner added: "Multi 21 means car 2 ahead of car 1; Multi 12 means car 1 ahead of car 2. It's not complicated!

"It's not that difficult to translate but both our drivers in the last three races have failed to understand both of those messages.

Now its' the last 3 races poor Horner has had problems. Brazil, Australia and Malasia. Wow, I wonder who is at fault for Australia