132 replies to this topic

[Black Widow]

Here is what Webber did/didn't do (and I have just reviewed the race

1. At the start he get away from the line slower than Vettel and soon they were virtually side by side. This gave him the perfect opportunity to leave a little less than a car width between himself and Vettel and let Vettel slip first in the first corner, thus simultaneously blocking the Ferrari behind him. Vettel moved to the center of the track, expecting exactly that but Webber had other plans. Under braking he chose to squeeze Vettel to the wall forcing him to brake very early and take a sharp turn, and this also opened the door for the Ferraris on the outside. In any other race this would be perfectly ok (tough but fair), but not in this one. I would not go as far as to tell that he deliberately opened the door to Ferrari's, it's more fair to say that he didn't care about them and his only goal was to make sure Vettel stays behind him at the start. So, he didn't help his teammate, he made his life much more difficult, while not bothering to block the competition.

2. Some time after that when the track dried out and Webber was behind because he clashed with someone in the first corner, there was a safety car because of the debris on the track. With dry track and damaged car Vettel was slower and on the restart Kobayashi was on his back. While Vettel was trying to defend his position against Kobayashi, Webber attacked him on the other side, only backing out of the move at the last moment when he saw that it was going to lead to contact between his cars and Vettel's. Again, racing hard against Vettel and making his life miserable when he had damaged car and fast Kobayashy on his tail.

I never expected Webber to help Vettel like Massa did Alonso (and TBH Vettel probably didn't expect it either), however he tried to race Vettel like it was every other race. I'm 100% sure that this is not want the team wanted from him.

Thank you for taking the time to review the race. Although I don't necessarily agree with your comments I do respect that you have taken the effort to review the race.

Again, thanks.

Edited by Black Widow, 30 March 2013 - 03:31.

[Black Widow]

As far as I am concerned, I have gained from this thread the information that I needed to know and I thank those that have posted meaningful contributions to assist me in gaining this information.

[Kelateboy]

Yes it was, Vettel was in trouble because of a reduced engine map (thank you ThomiFi) and if Webber had not taken the outside position there was every chance that the Force India car following would have passed Vettel as well. Webber then jeopardized his own race (losing positions) by going wide at T1 to stay out of the road of Vettel. If it had been the Force India where Webber was you can be guaranteed that Vettel would have squeezed between the the Sauber on the inside and the Force India on the outside.

I know you will never see it this way....

Now we have Webber the saviour for trying to ruin Vettel's race, and not for the first time in that race too.

The only reason Webber pulled out at T1 was because he could never have executed that move cleanly without taking his teammate out of that race. I know you will never see it that way....

[Black Widow]

Now we have Webber the saviour for trying to ruin Vettel's race, and not for the first time in that race too.

The only reason Webber pulled out at T1 was because he could never have executed that move cleanly without taking his teammate out of that race.

Guess I was right......

I know you will never see it that way....

....and yes you are right

[superuser]

I think that there can't be any doubt that Webber not only did not help Vettel in Brazil but definitely made his life more difficult. If we are going to discuss why he (Webber) did it, however there is certainly a room for discussion. My own view is that he didn't give a **** about the WDC and the only way he would ever help Vettel would be by beating Alonso. Then he would be able to say to Vettel "I gave you this WDC, don't ever forget that". So, Webber only cared about two things:

1. To keep Vettel behind him
2. To be ahead of Alonso so that the team won't blame him for losing the WDC or force him to fall behind Vettel

He took care of the first one at the start by squeezing Vettel however he was unable to do the second one, partially because (oh, the irony) Alonso did receive help from Massa but mostly because Webber wasn't fast enough when it was wet. By the way Webber ruined his own race by making contact with a Torro Rosso in the first corner but this is another matter entirely.

[DILLIGAF]

You can bitch all you want, us not knowing the details doesn't change that those inside all say he put himself above the team.

So after all your babbling about Brazil you don't actually know how Webber disobeyed any orders. Classic fanboy!!

Edited by DILLIGAF, 30 March 2013 - 06:48.

[Black Widow]

So after all your babbling about Brazil you don't actually know how Webber disobeyed any orders. Classic fanboy!!

Seems a common phenomenon!

[MrFondue]

Seems a common phenomenon!

What's karne up to these days?

Edited by MrFondue, 30 March 2013 - 11:50.

[jj2728]

There is no need to justify what Vettel did in Malaysia because it was perfectly fine. Racing is why they are there.

So, if Webber had done the same thing at Malaysia it would have been perfectly fine too, correct?

[Sakae]

So, if Webber had done the same thing at Malaysia it would have been perfectly fine too, correct?

Don't mud waters; he has done enough to greatly contribute to the situation we are in. It's not only my opinion, but his management as well. Horner explicitly said to Ted Kravitz, that Webber, Hamilton, and Alonso, they all in his opinion would have reacted in similar manner as Vettel has. The past between those two is neither forgotten, or forgiven, as it appears, and that's where we are.

Edited by Sakae, 30 March 2013 - 13:05.

[jj2728]

Don't mud waters; he has done enough to greatly contribute to the situation we are in. It's not only my opinion, but his management as well. Horner explicitly said to Ted Kravitz, that Webber, Hamilton, and Alonso, they all in his opinion would have reacted in similar manner as Vettel has. The past between those two is neither forgotten, or forgiven, as it appears, and that's where we are.

I asked a simple question, there is no mudding of waters as it were. Basically what you are implying is that it's Webber's fault that Vettel disobeyed team orders as he (Webber) brought it upon himself. In other words Vettel was getting payback for Mark's so-called past transgressions. Correct?

[choyothe]

So, if Webber had done the same thing at Malaysia it would have been perfectly fine too, correct?

Yup. RBR would have still been the guilty party.

Although it would've been more questionable since with Webber being "#2" and having ignored team orders before as well.

Edited by choyothe, 30 March 2013 - 13:35.

[mnmracer]

So after all your babbling about Brazil you don't actually know how Webber disobeyed any orders. Classic fanboy!!

We know he did. That is all there is to it.
You don't have to know every detail of something to know the result.

[jj2728]

We know he did. That is all there is to it.
You don't have to know every detail of something to know the result.

Now that is a true driver fan's perspective.......loyalty at times is blind.

[mnmracer]

Now that is a true driver fan's perspective.......loyalty at times is blind.

Did you know Senna never actually died because of his crash? All we saw a big crash. We never saw him die.
That could be interpreted in many ways. Ferrari actually send the mob to finish him while he was recovering in the hospital.
All we have on his actual death is just some person saying something.

.......loyalty at times is blind.
.......hate more often is ridiculous.

Edited by mnmracer, 30 March 2013 - 17:56.

[SpaMaster]

Come on, let's be calm here. I don't think the word hate is needed here. As far as I have seen here, jj2728 is a pretty sensible poster. He is not hating on anyone. It is quite understandable that people criticize Vettel for last week's action. Not all of them are Webber fans or hypocrites. You have to accept people's genuine opinion and not everyone has to accept that what Vettel did is okay because Webber also did similar things. There may be many who may be upset with both of them and may not buy the justification of one leading the other.

[mnmracer]

Come on, let's be calm here. I don't think the word hate is needed here. As far as I have seen here, jj2728 is a pretty sensible poster. He is not hating on anyone. It is quite understandable that people criticize Vettel for last week's action. Not all of them are Webber fans or hypocrites. You have to accept people's genuine opinion and not everyone has to accept that what Vettel did is okay because Webber also did similar things. There may be many who may be upset with both of them and may not buy the justification of one leading the other.

I am willing to accept people's opinion.
I am not willing to accept people's deceitful lies.

[Sakae]

I asked a simple question, there is no mudding of waters as it were. Basically what you are implying is that it's Webber's fault that Vettel disobeyed team orders as he (Webber) brought it upon himself. In other words Vettel was getting payback for Mark's so-called past transgressions. Correct?

Of course situation is more complex than to be answered as yes/no, and I do suspect that you know that. Incident occurred under full dynamics of the race, and I am not going to insult you by speculating that I know what’s in the racer’s mind in moments like these. In fact, I doubt that they think much in moments like those, if at all, but, for they are in focus instinctively reacting to environment and ambient conditions. This is not a fire-drill in which you going through repeated motions. You hear a bell, get out of the office, and go to your allocated spot on the parking lot. This is an equation you need to solve as it occurs in real time.

There is a conflict, Horner points out, between racer’s desires to (instinctively) fight, never mind everything else, and team’s desire to bring home as many points as possible. These are not always mutually inclusive interests. Then there were some unexplained questions about communication to drivers of that code; has Vettel really understood what is expected of him (how many times in so many years team asked him to stay put)? The code 21 was not a acknowledged by a driver (says Marko), and who knows what else went on which we aren't privy to. Vettel was in tight corner having heat (and he didn't know how strong) in form of Hamilton behind him, and Webber in focus ahead for wheel to wheel racing with him. During those tens times how much reading he has done of digital information on his wheel is anyone's guess (code 21 was sent to him over waves).

Seb’s reaction and execution of final laps was governed by his racing instinct, his habitual style of being aggressive to the last iota of the track (I will get you, you SOB – that sort of thing), and instinctive concerns what Webber will do during passing maneuver; after all, there is tainted and adversarial history between those two, as acknowledged by RB management. So yes, Webber’s past behavior was most likely a partial factor in this, as exhibited by that scream “get him out of my way”, but of course it was not the only and all, which led him to move forward. The racer’s mind was probably far more decisive in that incident.

After Turkey 2010, and Brazil 2012 there is very little respect between those two, you can see it, you can smell it, regardless of all PR dancing, and they probably hate each other’s guts, something that is not going away any time soon.

Edited by Sakae, 30 March 2013 - 19:09.

[study]

so, the Vettels fans point of view, that this incident with Vettel ignoring team orders is that it is all Webbers fault.

[jj2728]

Of course situation is more complex than to be answered as yes/no, and I do suspect that you know that. Incident occurred under full dynamics of the race, and I am not going to insult you by speculating that I know what’s in the racer’s mind in moments like these. In fact, I doubt that they think much in moments like those, if at all, but, for they are in focus instinctively reacting to environment and ambient conditions. This is not a fire-drill in which you going through repeated motions. You hear a bell, get out of the office, and go to your allocated spot on the parking lot. This is an equation you need to solve as it occurs in real time.

There is a conflict, Horner points out, between racer’s desires to (instinctively) fight, never mind everything else, and team’s desire to bring home as many points as possible. These are not always mutually inclusive interests. Then there were some unexplained questions about communication to drivers of that code; has Vettel really understood what is expected of him (how many times in so many years team asked him to stay put)? The code 21 was not a acknowledged by a driver (says Marko), and who knows what else went on which we aren't privy to. Vettel was in tight corner having heat (and he didn't know how strong) in form of Hamilton behind him, and Webber in focus ahead for wheel to wheel racing with him. During those tens times how much reading he has done of digital information on his wheel is anyone's guess (code 21 was sent to him over waves).

Seb’s reaction and execution of final laps was governed by his racing instinct, his habitual style of being aggressive to the last iota of the track (I will get you, you SOB – that sort of thing), and instinctive concerns what Webber will do during passing maneuver; after all, there is tainted and adversarial history between those two, as acknowledged by RB management. So yes, Webber’s past behavior was most likely a partial factor in this, as exhibited by that scream “get him out of my way”, but of course it was not the only and all, which led him to move forward. The racer’s mind was probably far more decisive in that incident.

After Turkey 2010, and Brazil 2012 there is very little respect between those two, you can see it, you can smell it, regardless of all PR dancing, and they probably hate each other’s guts, something that is not going away any time soon.

Actually you bring forward some interesting points. But, having said that I disagree that drivers aren't thinking much in moments like that. On the contrary they are fully aware of everything around them, constantly doing mental checks, not only of themselves, and those around them, but of the communications between them and the pits. That's why they're the best at what they do, would you not agree? The fact that Horner says there is a conflict, means that he as team boss should have the mettle to control his drivers and their actions. I don't believe for one second that Vettel didn't know that he was to hold station behind Webber or that there was some sort of mis-communication regarding the code. I'm sure that had there been an issue with the situation Sebastion would have been howling into the radio. If anything communications between driver and pit are too good. Vettel did it because he could, because he's a 3X WDC and he put himself above the team, knowing full well that the recriminations of his actions would be nill towards him. Time will tell if there are any real consequences because of this.

[Gag� Bueno]

so, the Vettels fans point of view, that this incident with Vettel ignoring team orders is that it is all Webbers fault.

Since this thread should be about team orders in Brazil '12, the issues of Malaysia '13 could be discussed somewhere else, or not? But what happens here is worth watching, I'm still waiting for the first one to affirm that Vettel is only WDC 2012 because Webber 'covered the Force india' ( ) in the start of Brazil 2012...

[DILLIGAF]

There is a conflict, Horner points out, between racer’s desires to (instinctively) fight, never mind everything else, and team’s desire to bring home as many points as possible. These are not always mutually inclusive interests. Then there were some unexplained questions about communication to drivers of that code; has Vettel really understood what is expected of him (how many times in so many years team asked him to stay put)? The code 21 was not a acknowledged by a driver (says Marko), and who knows what else went on which we aren't privy to. Vettel was in tight corner having heat (and he didn't know how strong) in form of Hamilton behind him, and Webber in focus ahead for wheel to wheel racing with him. During those tens times how much reading he has done of digital information on his wheel is anyone's guess (code 21 was sent to him over waves).

Seb’s reaction and execution of final laps was governed by his racing instinct, his habitual style of being aggressive to the last iota of the track (I will get you, you SOB – that sort of thing), and instinctive concerns what Webber will do during passing maneuver; after all, there is tainted and adversarial history between those two, as acknowledged by RB management. So yes, Webber’s past behavior was most likely a partial factor in this, as exhibited by that scream “get him out of my way”, but of course it was not the only and all, which led him to move forward. The racer’s mind was probably far more decisive in that incident.

After Turkey 2010, and Brazil 2012 there is very little respect between those two, you can see it, you can smell it, regardless of all PR dancing, and they probably hate each other’s guts, something that is not going away any time soon.

1. First paragraph: Seb acknowledged he got the multi 21 message. So whether the message was by radio(hence the code) or digital display is irrelevant. If Seb didn't get the message he would have had the perfect excuse. But he had no excuse & that's why he apologised.

2. Second paragraph: The excuse you make for Seb hear could easily be applied to Mark. It all depends on which driver you follow, like or dislike doesn't it Sakae.

3. Last paragraph: Totally agree

[bourbon]

So, if Webber had done the same thing at Malaysia it would have been perfectly fine too, correct?

Correct.

[Black Widow]

....... because Webber 'covered the Force india' ( ) in the start of Brazil 2012...

Maybe you should look at the re-start and not the start as you mentioned.

[Gag� Bueno]

Maybe you should look at the re-start and not the start as you mentioned.

Nope, I was referring to statements about the start like:

Looks to me like Webber did a great job of blocking the Force India. Don't forget he also had Massa (who was instantly along side him after the Ferrari's amazing starting ability) on the outside so there was not plenty of room.

Which are pretty IMO. But I'm hoping for even better ones...

[Sakae]

1. First paragraph: Seb acknowledged he got the multi 21 message. So whether the message was by radio(hence the code) or digital display is irrelevant. If Seb didn't get the message he would have had the perfect excuse. But he had no excuse & that's why he apologised.

Too many quotes, too many interviews; one doesn't know what or to whom to believe anymore.

My information, as written, is based on an interview with Dr. Marko, who said (paraphrasing): Code 21 was sent twice, but there was no response. Then instruction was sent digitally (it is displayed on driver's steering).

I am also aware what Horner said, namely, in anger and right after race that he has accused Vettel knowing that code 21 was issued to him, but at the same time in the heat of the moment I am not clear whether he just thought that, or he had received specific acknowledgement of it by the driver. Yes, Sebastian has apologised, because he was told once he got out of the car that he "screwed up".

Perhaps we can move to another race now, because regardless of nuances what facts are that would be important in criminal investigation, this case will go against Vettel for very long time, if not rest of his life.

Edited by Sakae, 31 March 2013 - 08:37.

[aditya-now]

This thread reminds me of this great Montoya quote :

This is a classic - was it actually journos in the press conference laughing? Schumi exposed....
Same goes for Vettel - "he was on a mission, the little fella"....

On the thread question: no, I don't think that Webber disobeyed team orders. Also it is not true, that Mark put Seb into the situation in which Vettel spun - he did that all by himself.

[DILLIGAF]

Perhaps we can move to another race now, because regardless of nuances what facts are that would be important in criminal investigation, this case will go against Vettel for very long time, if not rest of his life.

Agreed.

And I think Seb will cope regardless of how long this black mark stays with him. No big deal, he's not a criminal, he's just an F1 driver.

[Sakae]

Actually you bring forward some interesting points. But, having said that I disagree that drivers aren't thinking much in moments like that. On the contrary they are fully aware of everything around them, constantly doing mental checks, not only of themselves, and those around them, but of the communications between them and the pits...

I am not expert in this, but thinking about it for a minute, I would make distinctions between categories how a race develops in different stages, requiring different focus and management. From start, survival (finish race with faulty equipment), to managing conflict, "cruising", and all in one race. Maintaining gap is relatively peaceful period when external inputs (to domain of the vehicle) could be absorbed, but the situation as it was, Hamilton behind, Webber ahead, and blood in Seb's eyes probably weren't very supportive of a chit chat with the pit wall. Focus was probably on the edge, and I can imagine that he had never assumed the team would do that to him, and hold him back; not in a second race. Perhaps he did not paid any attention to noises, supressed them, and thought he will come back to them after he finishes what he was set to do. I really do not know what he was thinking, but the situation begs for better understanding, and not just to absolve Vettel.

Edited by Sakae, 31 March 2013 - 09:02.

[Jolkins]

This. But people who chose to be blind will remain blind.

Those pictures make me wonder whether Alonso and Webber sat together and planned it before the race.

Did I just read that? Seriously? How dumb of a person you have to be to have even a thought of that. Oh, my...

Looks like Seb fanboys are at it again...

[Kelateboy]

A good reading on what transpired in Brazil 2012, and where Mark could have gone against the TO.

http://www1.skysport...rom-your-mate...

Sky Sports F1's Commentary Expert Mark Hughes on the contrasting support provided by Mark Webber and Felipe Massa in Brazil

"I was side-by-side with Mark and he squeezed me to the inside, so your angle for turn one becomes worse and worse.

It's very easy if you try to be stubborn and fight until the apex that everyone just keeps turning in and you are the one parked on the apex and you lose your front wing so I had to back off, obviously slow down a lot, go down to first gear, everyone around the outside used that momentum, and I lost a lot of positions." - Vettel

[superuser]

Did I just read that? Seriously? How dumb of a person you have to be to have even a thought of that. Oh, my...

Looks like Seb fanboys are at it again...

Still, not nearly the same level of blindness that is needed to deny any wrongdoing from Webber in Brazil 2012. Everybody and his mother was talking how Massa helped Alonso in contrast with Webber, who hindered Vettel. But all was forgotten when Vettel got the WDC anyway. I bet that Webber's antics at the start were the reason of Helmut Marko's outburst against him during the winter so DM had to intervene to save Webber's seat.

Again, I don't want Webber to help like Massa did (and I'm sure Vettel doesn't want that too). But given the situation and that he was out of WDC fight, he could just move out of the way. Hell, even people from other teams often move out of the way of WDC contenders in the last race but not Webber, the "team player".

[Kelateboy]

Again, I don't want Webber to help like Massa did (and I'm sure Vettel doesn't want that too). But given the situation and that he was out of WDC fight, he could just move out of the way. Hell, even people from other teams often move out of the way of WDC contenders in the last race but not Webber, the "team player".

Schumacher, Vergne and Ricciardo were more helpful to the champion than Webber in that race, but let's not forget that Webber did move over once for Vettel in Brazil.