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#51 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 12:52

That clip with Gerry driving it , it sounds so strong and he was keeping it on the boil quite succesfully

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#52 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 10:21

The only time I have seen anyone ring the neck of a V16 rather than drive it with due deference to it's infamous fragility!


Wring Shirley Simon


Oh hell, my typing doesn't improve with age.... :blush:

#53 Magoo

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 12:55

More powerful than a Novi...

DCN


A dubious claim, given that the Novi has twice the displacement. And also tended to run on all its cylinders.


#54 Doug Nye

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 13:16

A dubious claim, given that the Novi has twice the displacement. And also tended to run on all its cylinders.


Understandable, but misguided. Bhp per litre is the significant comparison. And 1953-55 the V16s more often than not really did fire consistently on all 16.

DCN

#55 f1steveuk

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 13:51

I had the Eagle cutaway of the Saro A-1 jet fighter flying boat (and who remebers that?) on my bedroom wall while, to get back on topic, my Crescent BRM V16 was, then and now, one of the icons of my toy cupboard. Another Crescent V16 is currently on my work-bench being fitted with wire wheels, seat, steering wheel etc to celebrate S. Moss's less-than-wholly-successful Ulster Trophy drive. The near-mystical status of this legendary vehicle is enough to leave any enthusiast mythty-eyed.

I have read in another thread here, I think, that someone asked Moss if he had heard the well-known recording of the V16, to which his reply was: 'surrised they got it running for long enough to record it, old boy.'

With apologies for straying OT: http://www.verdon-ro...ghterjetvideos/


Well, the SRA/1 jet fighter flying boat was powered by a Metro-Vick Beryl, and one of the two in the aircraft in that clip powered Donald Campbell's Bluebird, built after he had sunk his father's old Blue Bird, which was powered by a Rolls-Royce R Type, the supercharger of which was partially designed and developed by Tony Rudd, who later worked for BRM. There, back on thread, easy!

#56 Magoo

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 13:59

Understandable, but misguided. Bhp per litre is the significant comparison. And 1953-55 the V16s more often than not really did fire consistently on all 16.

DCN



BHP/liter is Pommy rot to me. I'm happy this otherwise useless data point gave the British motoring press something to blabber about for lo so many years, thus keeping them gainfully employed and off the streets. However, outside the world of auto racing and its totally arbitrary and feckless regulations, displacement-specific output has little or no meaning. Not in any objective sense.

For example, in the skies over Europe in WWII, there were no displacement regulations between the Allies and the Axis, no points thus awarded. As a result, nobody had any reason to give a rat's ass about hp/liter. So why should I in this instance?

The Novi and the BRM were not built to the same rulebook and displacement regulations. They were built to two separate and completely different rulebooks an ocean apart. So how and where does hp/liter become a consideration now?

Historically, engines of smaller displacement invariably have an advantage in displacement-specific output. Why give the BRM such an unfair advantage? Seems awfully insecure to me. Why don't we select a more objective comparison? Say, horsepower per gudgeon pin? Horsepower per dollar? Horsepower per gallon of ink expended in valorous prosody?

#57 Allan Lupton

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 14:20

Having already risked upsetting Magoo earlier in this thread I shall do so again by trying to show that specific output is more useful than he/she thinks.

Specific output of engines is used as an indicator of design quality and which specific output is chosen depends on what matters in the case concerned.
BHP/litre is chosen when displacement is important for some reason - e.g. in a displacement-defined racing formula or in road cars in countries where taxation or insurance is displacement based.
BHP/sq. in. of piston area is also a good design quality yardstick.
BHP/lb. installed weight can be used in aeronautical applications since there it is important to use weight and not waste it. Magoo's reference to the last war is the case in point and when racing cars have a maximum weight limit it can be relevant.
lb./BHP-hr. (specific fuel consumption) is another derivative used in aeronautics, but it came into its own in the first Formula 1 when comparing the merits of 1½litre s/c and 4½ litre non-s/c engines at the design stage.

Hope this helps you.

#58 David McKinney

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 14:56

BHP/litre is chosen when displacement is important for some reason - e.g. in a displacement-defined racing formula or in road cars in countries where taxation or insurance is displacement based.

It's also a simple guide to engine development in history. For many years 100bhp/litre was a seemingly unattainable goal, then 100bhp/litrre from an unsupercharged engine became the Holy Grail. Now even production cars attain this figure


#59 Magoo

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 15:02

Having already risked upsetting Magoo earlier in this thread I shall do so again by trying to show that specific output is more useful than he/she thinks.

Specific output of engines is used as an indicator of design quality and which specific output is chosen depends on what matters in the case concerned.
BHP/litre is chosen when displacement is important for some reason - e.g. in a displacement-defined racing formula or in road cars in countries where taxation or insurance is displacement based.
BHP/sq. in. of piston area is also a good design quality yardstick.
BHP/lb. installed weight can be used in aeronautical applications since there it is important to use weight and not waste it. Magoo's reference to the last war is the case in point and when racing cars have a maximum weight limit it can be relevant.
lb./BHP-hr. (specific fuel consumption) is another derivative used in aeronautics, but it came into its own in the first Formula 1 when comparing the merits of 1½litre s/c and 4½ litre non-s/c engines at the design stage.

Hope this helps you.


You haven't upset anyone I know. Please back up a few feet and keep your eye on the ball. If you keep crowding the baseline they'll keep flying straight over your head, thanks.

Yes, BHP/frontal are, BHP/lb, BSFC, etc are useful relative measures of engine output. This places them in stark contrast with BHP/liter, which doesn't mean Diddley Squat except in the totally arbitrary rules of motorsports.

For example, in combat aircraft engines: If they could increase the displacement without increasing its weight or frontal area, they did it. Meanwhile, throughout the war engines constantly grew in displacement, which is at best only a secondary indicator of weight and size, and only a tertiary indicator of fuel consumption.

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#60 Mal9444

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 07:32

Well, the SRA/1 jet fighter flying boat was powered by a Metro-Vick Beryl, and one of the two in the aircraft in that clip powered Donald Campbell's Bluebird, built after he had sunk his father's old Blue Bird, which was powered by a Rolls-Royce R Type, the supercharger of which was partially designed and developed by Tony Rudd, who later worked for BRM. There, back on thread, easy!


:rotfl: :rotfl:
Brilliant. Only on TNF.

:wave:


#61 Allan Lupton

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 08:01

Well, the SRA/1 jet fighter flying boat was powered by a Metro-Vick Beryl, and one of the two in the aircraft in that clip powered Donald Campbell's Bluebird, built after he had sunk his father's old Blue Bird, which was powered by a Rolls-Royce R Type, the supercharger of which was partially designed and developed by Tony Rudd, who later worked for BRM. There, back on thread, easy!

Tony Rudd (b. 1923) must have been an engineering infant prodigy to have worked on the supercharger of the original R-R "R" engine as in S6B (1931). Even when Malcolm Campbell was last using the "R" in his boat, Rudd would have been 16.

#62 f1steveuk

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 09:29

Tony Rudd (b. 1923) must have been an engineering infant prodigy to have worked on the supercharger of the original R-R "R" engine as in S6B (1931). Even when Malcolm Campbell was last using the "R" in his boat, Rudd would have been 16.


I quote from the "horses mouth" so to speak! I could have been more specific in saying Tony worked on Donald's incarnation of K4, having had some input in later R development during his apprenticeship at Rolls-Royce. The R was considered a "dead" project, having only been designed for the Schnieder Trophy, so when it was found to be hanging around in cars and boats for record breaking, it was an ideal place for apprentices to learn, Tony's design input on the superchargers being to compensate for the lower ram effect because of the reduced forward speeds.

Tony did indeed start young, in the 1930s when he assisted Prince Chula and Prince Bira's at the White Mouse Racing team. It was this that inspired him to to take up the apprenticeship at Rolls-Royce. He was an expert in diagnosing failures in Merlin engines, but his main interest remained cars. It was Tony who was instrumental in fitting the BRM V16 engine with Rolls-Royce superchargers, and he was loaned to BRM in 1951 to assist with their development, he never returned to Rolls-Royce.

#63 Gregor Marshall

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 10:33

Just to add to what some others have kindly said above about my late father's demo, an excerpt from mine and JW's book:-

"Mr Marshall showed just what the V16 BRM could do in the sound and fury stakes before an April Silverstone crowd who still talk about the display. Back in 1990 Autosport’s Nik Phillips waspishly commented of the April 21st meeting and Gerry’s dream drive: ‘The VSCC assembled a superb array of machinery from 1908 Napier to 1960 Cooper, to entertain the tweed-clad classes around the National Circuit on Saturday. The unique sound of the V16 BRM was also on hand as Gerry Marshall put Nick Mason’s car through a handful of hairy demonstration laps.’
Nick Mason confirmed in 2009 that this was the V16 that he later sold to formula 1 supremo Bernie Ecclestone. The Pink Floyd drummer and President of the Guild of Motoring Writers added, “as usual it needed another rebuild after Gerry’s ride....No criticism – It needed a rebuild after every trip!”
Gerry commented in a subsequent Autosport interview on the contributory reasons Mason let him out in the BRM…”The worst [car] I ever drove was an old Indycar of Nick Mason’s which kept breaking. So he let me demonstrate his BRM V16 at a VSCC Silverstone. I thought it was fabulous, especially screaming flat through Woodcote.”

I know for my father it was a dream come true to drive the BRM, as his hero was Gonzalez (he met him once and it was the only time I knew my father to be speechless!!) and he had seen him race at Silverstone in '52. When I was growing up he had a square record that he used to play, which was the sound of the BRMs at Silverstone - he used to play it incredibly loud!! Of course he also purchased Doug's fantastic books too...

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I can't remember who sent these two photos to me (I can remove), but it does show the smile on his face!!:-

Posted Image

Posted Image

Apologies for the slight thread highjack, I thought some would appreciate.

#64 Tony Matthews

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 10:40

Apologies for the slight thread highjack, I thought some would appreciate.

Some do, Gregor, thanks.

#65 D-Type

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 10:42

It's no hijack - its about the V16 and relates to the only opportunity for the present generation to have seen and heard a BRM being driven in the manner intended. And iwas long enough ago to be classed as 'Nostalgia' (don't the years flash by.

#66 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 11:36

Some do, Gregor, thanks.


Seconded Tony & thanks for the photos Gregor that action shot brings it all back. Absolute magic.
I saw your Dad coming out of the BRDC suite in the morning, I think he was wearing a white stetson hat above a very big grin. I think it was Gordon Blackwell, the gate-keeper who asked "what you in today then Gerry?"
"Gonna drive the V16!" he chuckled rubbing his hands together like JR Ewing upon finding a new oil field and almost did a little jig, his enthusiasm positively radiating.
It's funny it's one of those Max Boyce style "I was there" moments you just relish recalling and yet it wasn't even a race, just a demo...but what a demo! :clap:

#67 kayemod

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 11:45

It's funny it's one of those Max Boyce style "I was there" moments you just relish recalling and yet it wasn't even a race, just a demo...but what a demo! :clap:


Just like you, I can remember incidents from many years ago with absolute clarity, even recalling word for word what people said, while probably like most of us, I'm having an ever-increasing number of "Now what did I come upstairs for?" moments.


#68 Ray Bell

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 12:21

A superb addition to this thread, Gregor... thank you!

And the subsequent comments it dredged out of people with happy memories.

#69 Doug Nye

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 22:20

It was Tony who was instrumental in fitting the BRM V16 engine with Rolls-Royce superchargers...


News to me. :confused:

DCN

#70 Ray Bell

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 00:07

Perhaps he had a hand in trying to make them work?



#71 onelung

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 00:21

Might not there be some degree of (Sir) Stanley Hooker's DNA in any supercharger technology emanating from Rolls-Royce?

#72 Robin Fairservice

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 02:08

Might not there be some degree of (Sir) Stanley Hooker's DNA in any supercharger technology emanating from Rolls-Royce?

Yes, Read Sir Stanley Hooker's book.
During WW 2, Tony Rudd was a young engineer who ran a system for recording all mechanincal problems on RR Merlin engines, so that they could be dealt with. I understood that he was sent to BRM becaue RR was unhappy with being blamed for all ot their problems, and theysuspected that Mays and Berthon were fiddling with the blowers. From Tony's book I believe that he found out that they were fiddling with the blowers.

#73 David Beard

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 08:24

100 @ 5,000 (105 ft/lbs)
175 @ 6,000 (153 ft/lbs)
250 @ 7,000 (187 ft/lbs)
335 @ 8,000 (220 ft/lbs)
412 @ 9,000 (241 ft/lbs)
525 @ 10,000 (262 ft/lbs)
585 @ 11,000 (278 ft/lbs)
600 @ 12,000 (262 ft/lbs)


Are the figures on brackets supposed to be torque? If so...a very strange unit of measurement ;)

Edited by David Beard, 05 April 2013 - 10:43.


#74 f1steveuk

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 08:44

News to me. :confused:

DCN



I'm pretty certain that was what came out of my research, and that Tony confirmed he was involved. You have me wondering now, I shall check my files when I get home, as I suspect you will know more about it than me!!


#75 fuzzi

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 09:23

The late Geoffrey Wilde and Fred Allen of Rolls-Royce presented a paper to the Institution of Mechanical Engineers "Supercharging the 1½-litre V16 BRM Racing Engine" on 31 January 1964. the paper sets out the work they carried out in the Compressor Section of Rolls-Royce almost as a weekend job between 1945 and 1949. From then onwards the supercharger was under development by BRM, and as DCN's (BRM Volume One) and ACR's (It was Fun) books make clear it was not until Tony Rudd and Willie Southcott were able to to get to grips with the test bed work that they got the engine to work well.

Shame that the vortex throttling idea was never fully exploited, but with the other problems BRM had it is hardly surprising.

The IMechE and the copyright holders gave permission for the paper to be printed as an appendix to Anthony Pritchard's "BRM V16 In Camera".

Copies of all three books are in the IMech E Library.

Edited by fuzzi, 05 April 2013 - 09:26.


#76 Roger Clark

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 09:40

The IMechE and the copyright holders gave permission for the paper to be printed as an appendix to Anthony Pritchard's "BRM V16 In Camera".

Many thanks, I've ordered the book.

#77 Doug Nye

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 09:55

Exactly. I believe a combination of RM, Alfred Owen and Bernard Scott from Lucas who pressed the BRM case with Lord Hives of Rolls-Royce, then Hs himself, were really 'instrumental' in applying the Derby company's supercharging expertise to the V16 engine. Then 'Oscar' Wilde and Prof Allen who master-minded the tailored design and R-R's side of the development programme.

The former told me at great length what low regard they developed for the 'dreamers and garage mechanics' at Bourne. Tony managed to change much of that, but he was really quite a way down the pecking order in all of this, until 1952-53 when it in reality it was all too late - the category for which the project had been conceived had been by-passed and had become an irrelevance. The cars were left to race in parochial British home events while many of we Brits whistled in the wind, believing they were world beaters 'still'...because British enthusiasts were literally desperate for our teams to combat Johnny Foreigner effectively.

Ironically, of course, it was not 'big' money, big industry that would do the trick. It was common sense, war surplus, shoestring-budget Sheer Racer that broke the mould, HWM, then Cooper, then Lotus - who took down the Italians' trousers. Thankfully, Mercedes only weighed-in for 14 months, made their point, and bowed out again. BRM's principals adopted the airs and graces of being in motor racing terms "the British Mercedes-Benz". But they never ever had sufficient funding, nor the available brain power, to fulfil that aspiration. What Abecassis, Heath, Charles and John Cooper and then Colin Chapman realised was that you didn't need to be a Mercedes-Benz to win races, and to make money, motor racing. And they pioneered and then drove forward a revolution. Hurrah!

DCN

#78 Eric Dunsdon

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 11:58

Many thanks, I've ordered the book.

That book also needs an appendix to correct the numerous photo caption mistakes!!.

#79 fuzzi

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 13:25

From DCN:

"What Abecassis, Heath, Charles and John Cooper and then Colin Chapman realised was that you didn't need to be a Mercedes-Benz to win races, and to make money, motor racing. And they pioneered and then drove forward a revolution. Hurrah!"

Plus of course Rodney Clarke at Connaught, who proved the Italians could be beaten and on home turf, but never made any money and Tony Vandervell who spent his own cash to rub their faces in the brake dust. :wave:

Edited by fuzzi, 05 April 2013 - 13:27.


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#80 Doug Nye

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 21:18

From DCN:

"What Abecassis, Heath, Charles and John Cooper and then Colin Chapman realised was that you didn't need to be a Mercedes-Benz to win races, and to make money, motor racing. And they pioneered and then drove forward a revolution. Hurrah!"

Plus of course Rodney Clarke at Connaught, who proved the Italians could be beaten and on home turf, but never made any money and Tony Vandervell who spent his own cash to rub their faces in the brake dust. :wave:


Absolutely right. Vandervell fell more into the big industry category but Clarke and Oliver at Connaught were certainly pioneering heroes.

DCN

#81 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 10:00

Are the figures on brackets supposed to be torque? If so...a very strange unit of measurement ;)

What is strange about horsepower and foot lbs of torque. Many people still use those figures. Especially in the US. And drag racers and speedway types!

#82 onelung

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 10:24

Yes, Read Sir Stanley Hooker's book.
During WW 2, Tony Rudd was a young engineer who ran a system for recording all mechanincal problems on RR Merlin engines, so that they could be dealt with. I understood that he was sent to BRM becaue RR was unhappy with being blamed for all ot their problems, and theysuspected that Mays and Berthon were fiddling with the blowers. From Tony's book I believe that he found out that they were fiddling with the blowers.

It just happens to be on my library shelf, which is why I raised the question - I feel Hooker is a somewhat under-appreciated quantity for much of the populace.
And even more overlooked perhaps, A. J. Rowledge .... here - I just wish there was an equivalent book dealing with Rowledge as that of "Not Much of an Engineer" which tells Hooker's story.

#83 onelung

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 10:27

A torque units is force times length. Ft/lbs can't be a torque. Surely an oversight.

Foot-pounds, Newton-metres ... I don't see a problem.

#84 Allan Lupton

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 12:05

Ft/lbs means length divided by force. Metre/Newton or ft/pounds - if it is closer to your heart - are not units of a torque. I guess the original poster meant this.

Quite so.
ft.-lb. (or lb.-ft.) but not ft./lb.
It is a common mistake, born of lack of understanding, but that doesn't make it acceptable.

#85 D-Type

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 14:36

Quite so.
ft.-lb. (or lb.-ft.) but not ft./lb.
It is a common mistake, born of lack of understanding, but that doesn't make it acceptable.

Seconded.

But my company style manual would have put ft-lb, lb-ft, or N-m without full stops as these are symbols not abbreviations. :p

#86 Ray Bell

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 17:13

I trust I'll be forgiven for my slackness in not checking up?

Is it desirable that I go back and correct my error?

#87 kayemod

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 17:16

I trust I'll be forgiven for my slackness in not checking up?

Is it desirable that I go back and correct my error?


Not really, I doubt if there's a single person here who didn't know exactly what you meant.


#88 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 13:18

Looking in the files I found some photos I took of Big Gerry and the V16 at Silverstone in 1990 - so many people crowding closely around the car it was hard to take any.

Posted Image
"JR" Marshall, with cigar, chatting with Tony Merrick

Posted Image
Outside the old paddock cafe - with it's a dubious makeover ( to keep Bernie happy..ish?)
I think it was fake brickwork on plywood panels but at this point a part of the old roof had yet to be fully obsured.

Do I spy TNF's Ted stood observing the BRM on the left in dark glasses?

#89 Sharman

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 13:50

Quite so.
ft.-lb. (or lb.-ft.) but not ft./lb.
It is a common mistake, born of lack of understanding, but that doesn't make it acceptable.


You must have heard Allan that whenever there is a couple in a field they always have their moment (electro-magnetic I know but I have always liked the comment)

#90 Sharman

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 13:53

Which Mk2 did Collins drive at Aintree in 55?

#91 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 13:57

Which Mk2 did Collins drive at Aintree in 55?

A green one....

#92 AAGR

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 14:26

A green one....


Read Doug's magisterial book - it will tell you ....

AAGR


#93 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 14:31

Read Doug's magisterial book - it will tell you ....

AAGR


Just sold one and don't have any left on the shelf to refer to :blush:

#94 Doug Nye

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 17:04

:eek:

Mein Gott! A buyer?

DCN


#95 Eric Dunsdon

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 17:10

:eek:

Mein Gott! A buyer?

DCN

For him, the confusion is over!.

#96 Tony Matthews

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 17:37

:)

#97 arttidesco

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 18:11

Which Mk2 did Collins drive at Aintree in 55?


According to page 212 Vol.1 of Doug's Saga "..., Peter Collins applied his full attention to Mark II 'No.5' for this supporting Libre event."

Thank Tim Murray for lending me 'The Book' and get Doug a bag of chips when you see him next ;)

Edited by arttidesco, 10 April 2013 - 18:11.


#98 Doug Nye

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 18:24

Mixed nuts would do nicely, thank you..

DCN

#99 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 19:22

For him, the confusion is over!.

:lol:

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#100 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 23:40

It’s not an issue Ray, I only replied when people took the first comment as referred to the use of Imperial units, which clearly wasn’t. As I said, it’s just a oversight, everybody know what you meant.

More than a few pedantic people here.