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Sorry I won


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#1 rjtart

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 00:22

Without getting into whether it was necessary or appropriate, or debating the moral character of the people involved, can anyone come up with other examples of drivers (or teams) who felt obliged to apologize after winning a race?

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#2 R Soul

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 01:06

Sort of. Schumacher won the 2001 (?) Spanish Grand Prix after race leader Hakkinen suffered an engine failure on the last lap. MS said that he felt sorry for him, probably because Hakkinen had a big lead when it happened, and it really was his race. I know that wasn't an actual apology, but it's as close as I can think of.

Edited by R Soul, 29 March 2013 - 01:09.


#3 Meanbeakin

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 01:20

Austria 2002 is an obvious one.

#4 boyRacer

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 02:40

Austria 2002 is an obvious one.


I think that podium was actually more embarrassing than Malaysia.

#5 Szoelloe

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 07:34

Austria 2002, definitely.

#6 Jackmancer

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 09:02

Indianapolis 2002 was kinda weird as well, neither drivers knowing who had won.
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#7 apoka

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 09:02

Austria 2002 is an obvious one.

Even as MS fan, I have to admit that this was worse than Malaysia. Rubens hat to slow down to let MS pass and it was not really necessary (which Ferrari could not have exactly known at this point, but strong indicators were there). In Malaysia, team orders were actually against the top driver and he still had to fight to win it (by now I think Horner statements, lap time comparisons etc. make it clear that Webber was not in cruise mode after his pit stop - Vettel mostly benefited when closing in on Webber but not during the fight).

#8 Henri Greuter

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:35

Indy 2005 another one maybe?


Not for victory and not on the actual podium.

Nurnburgring 1984: Piquet in second place heading for the finish but out of fuel so he slows down, heading for the line. Right behind him Alboreto, who ran out of fuel a few seconds later, also slowing down while heading for the line but still a bit faster than Piuet and had overtaken him short before the last corner. Both men out of the cars: Alboreto making a helpless gesture: "Sorry, but I can't help it



Henri

#9 Ravenak

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 13:07

Well, the FIA had to apologize for Kimi's stolen victory in Brazil 2003.

#10 MrFondue

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 13:17

Well, the FIA had to apologize for Kimi's stolen victory in Brazil 2003.

Wasn't really stolen though.

#11 Ravenak

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 13:46

Wasn't really stolen though.


It completely was. Fisichella was leading the race when Webber crashed, and still when Alonso crashed.

#12 Collombin

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 15:24

Prost was very apologetic about wrenching the 1986 title from under Mansell's nose - of course, they used to get on in those days, and he was talking to the British media at the time........

I do recall a US driver in the 50s apologising to the widow of another driver for winning the race in which her husband had been killed.



#13 Skinnyguy

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 15:48

It completely was. Fisichella was leading the race when Webber crashed, and still when Alonso crashed.


10 years later and people still don´t get it.

It doesn´t matter who was leading when the crashes happened, it matters who was leading two laps before the first red flag is deployed.

Stewards initially got it wrong because they didn´t notice Fisichella had briefly completed another lap right before the first red flag signal was deployed. So, the count backwards of two laps took the to the very lap in which Fisichella passed Räikkönen right before Juncao corner. Fisichella was the right winner by the book, but not because he was leading when people crashed, that´s irrelevant. Relevant factors are on what lap leader was when the first red flag was shown, and what the standings were two laps before that.

#14 Ravenak

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 17:35

You're wrong. The red flag was shown after Alonso's crash and Fisichella had already been in front for two laps at that point. To find Kimi leading the race, you had to go back 2 laps further.

#15 Skinnyguy

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 15:30

You're wrong. The red flag was shown after Alonso's crash and Fisichella had already been in front for two laps at that point. To find Kimi leading the race, you had to go back 2 laps further.


Yes, and that´s why he won. To tell someone is wrong first you must understand what he says. Do yourself a favour and have a read as many times as necesary, you defenitely didn´t get it. It´s perfectly explained, but I´ll try again.

Race winner under a red flag with more than 75% of the race distance covered was whoever crossed the line first, two laps before the first red flag signal was deployed. That man was Fisichella and that´s why he was given the win. Initial mistake giving Räikkönen the win was due to stewards failing to determine correctly on which lap the leader (Fisichella) was when the first red flag was deployed, as he went one more time over the line briefly before the first red flag emerged. The original (and wrong) -2 laps countback took stewards back to the last lap Räikkönen led, the later (correct) -2 laps countback started from one lap later, and it took stewards to the first lap Fisichella lead.

So Fisichella lead the crutial -2 lap, while Räikkönen lead the -3 lap. And stewards missed that Fisichella had started another lap right before the first red flag, and that´s why controversy emerged.

How can you check it´s true? First, watch the race, because you don´t have a clear picture of it at all, not about the race, and not about the rules. If you can´t, just check the final standings wherever you can. You´ll see Räikkönen less than a second behind Giancarlo. He had been passed in what ended up being the last ofical lap of the race. He leaded the previous lap to what ended up being the final lap. There´s no need to go "another 2 laps further" to see him leading as you say.

Fisichella was the legit winner of the race, but you fail to understand why in your original comment, and you make other wrong statements about the final part of the race, and even about the rules. Who lead when the accident happened was totally irrelevant. Relevant factors are 1) on which lap race leader was when the first flag was deployed; and 2) The standings 2 laps before that lap.

The mistake was perfectly justified by the way. The period of time between the appearance of the red flag and the last pass through the line from Fisichella was REALLY small. If you see a replay of Alonso´s crash, you can see Fisichella and Räikkönen going through debris around 5-7 seconds before Alonso. Fisichella had 5-7 seconds to go from the point of the crash to the line. As you can see, it was all really marginal. In fact, the time between the crash and the red flag deployment was what decided the win, as Fisichella couldn´t have crossed the line the very moment when Alonso crashed. Check yourself in the replay starting in 2:43.


Edited by Skinnyguy, 30 March 2013 - 15:58.


#16 choyothe

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 16:48

Well, the FIA had to apologize for Kimi's stolen victory in Brazil 2003.



You're wrong. The red flag was shown after Alonso's crash and Fisichella had already been in front for two laps at that point. To find Kimi leading the race, you had to go back 2 laps further.


Huh? Fisichella won that race.


#17 Ravenak

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 17:42

Huh? Fisichella won that race.


Come on people, you have to read more carefully...

Kimi stole the win from Fisichella. Someone said he didn't really steal the win from, but he did, as there was absolutely no reason for Kimi to win. And yes, he gave the trophy back 5 days later, but he still stole the win for a few days AND the joy of being on the highest step of the podium for the first time

The FIA were completely out of their game.

Edited by Ravenak, 30 March 2013 - 17:44.


#18 scheivlak

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 17:52

Come on people, you have to read more carefully...

Kimi stole the win from Fisichella. Someone said he didn't really steal the win from, but he did, as there was absolutely no reason for Kimi to win. And yes, he gave the trophy back 5 days later, but he still stole the win for a few days AND the joy of being on the highest step of the podium for the first time

Nonsense, if only because it wasn't his first win - he had just won the Malaysian GP.

He was simply declared the winner amongst a hell of confusion - now, what would you do?
Just a year before, Ferrari got a million dollar fine because Michael didn't follow the right podium procedure in Austria and stepped from the top spot.....

Edited by scheivlak, 30 March 2013 - 17:53.


#19 Skinnyguy

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 18:19

Come on people, you have to read more carefully.


You dare telling that to the other guy after your show? :lol:

Kimi stole the win from Fisichella. Someone said he didn't really steal the win from, but he did, as there was absolutely no reason for Kimi to win.


I´m starting to suspect you´re the TL;DR kind of by now. Just trust me, take it calmly, start reading, and watch the race if you want. If you eventually manage to grasp how the race ended, and why it all went wrong, you´ll understand how hard it actually was making the right call, and why it needed so much time to get the evidence of how the timming had decided the race. Just in case you can´t be bothered with that, summary: It was a matter of seconds between the last time Fisi crossed the line and the moment when the red flag was shown. That´s why it was hard to pick a lap to get the standings from. And two drivers leading in the two laps that could have been taken as final standings didn´t help.

Then somehow blaming a driver for the whole issue, and suggesting that a guy declared winner should just not show up or something like that... I´ll just ignore it because by now I know who´s who around here, but you should know it doesn´t make you look smart exactly.

The FIA were completely out of their game.


The FIA made a mistake that anyone actually understanding the issue can see how happened. Then they gathered precise evidence of the timming of the red flag deployment and Fisi´s position, and rectified their mistake. That´s not "being out of your game". You are "out of your game" right now giving wild opinions without bothering to know the facts. You´ve mixed up who was leading on which lap, how the race victory was decided... a total mess. Hope at least this discussion serves you to get a clue about how the last laps of the race went.


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#20 Ravenak

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 18:51

1) When I say Kimi, I mean McLaren, and, to some extent, the people who gave him the win.

2) Everybody was sure of Fisichella's win: the viewers, the commentators and the teams, even the ones who knew about that minus-1 lap rule.

3) I wasn't talking about the joy of a first win for Kimi, but for Fisi, obviously.

All this, ergo you're both wrong.

#21 SpartanChas

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 18:58

Was reading about Michael Park (WRC co-driver of Markko Martin) earlier. When he died, Sebastien Loeb deliberately incurred a time penalty because he didn't want to win that rally.

#22 jj2728

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 19:46

Not necessarily an apology, but Jacky Ickx said that he was relieved to have not won the 1970 WDC without Rindt being there to defend his points lead.

#23 scheivlak

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 19:56

2) Everybody was sure of Fisichella's win: the viewers, the commentators and the teams, even the ones who knew about that minus-1 lap rule.

Everybody?

It was far more complex than that. At first, indeed everybody thought that Fisi had won. I remember the Dutch commentators being surprised that Kimi was declared the winner shortly afterwards but then he realised: "Huh what - o, wait that must be because of the lap countback rule" and explained that to his viewers. Just had a look at the ITV coverage - they were already supsicious and in anticipation before Kimi was announced the winner. So when Kimi was announced - wrongly! - everybody joined in in explaining why and the matter seemed closed.
So you're wrong: not everybody was sure about Fisi's win. And there was a quite general initial acceptance of the announced result, though many felt for Fisi. See here how it was accepted at first at the forum that evening (April 6): http://forums.autosp...w...=55471&st=0

Hours later, it was here at this very forum -OK, it was called Atlas then- that one or two people posted: "Hey, wait a minute! Have a good look at the exact time the red flag was shown and think where Fisi would have been at that moment!"
I can't find that exact thread now - but here is the thread (April 11!) where the new classification was announced, and you can see how proud Bira - then the editor of this site- was that it was quite possibly a discussion on this very forum that made FIA think, look and hear again: http://forums.autosp...showtopic=55627

Edited by scheivlak, 30 March 2013 - 19:58.


#24 Ravenak

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 20:56

Which makes the FIA look even dumber on this particular case. Thanks for seconding me.

#25 Claudius

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 21:32

1) When I say Kimi, I mean McLaren, and, to some extent, the people who gave him the win.

2) Everybody was sure of Fisichella's win: the viewers, the commentators and the teams, even the ones who knew about that minus-1 lap rule.

3) I wasn't talking about the joy of a first win for Kimi, but for Fisi, obviously.

All this, ergo you're both wrong.


:lol: Ok
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#26 ClubmanGT

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 21:36

Everybody?

It was far more complex than that. At first, indeed everybody thought that Fisi had won. I remember the Dutch commentators being surprised that Kimi was declared the winner shortly afterwards but then he realised: "Huh what - o, wait that must be because of the lap countback rule" and explained that to his viewers. Just had a look at the ITV coverage - they were already supsicious and in anticipation before Kimi was announced the winner. So when Kimi was announced - wrongly! - everybody joined in in explaining why and the matter seemed closed.[/url]


On local forums there was a comparison of the race result with the 1992 Bathurst 1000 and the conclusion reached was that it was probably Fisi who should have been given the win, but that was only because of history almost repeating.


#27 scheivlak

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 22:25

Which makes the FIA look even dumber on this particular case. Thanks for seconding me.

I don't think anybody would think otherwise about how the FIA handled this.

For some reason you called this a devious Kimi/McLaren trick which is of course nonsense.

#28 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 00:05

Everybody?

It was far more complex than that. At first, indeed everybody thought that Fisi had won. I remember the Dutch commentators being surprised that Kimi was declared the winner shortly afterwards but then he realised: "Huh what - o, wait that must be because of the lap countback rule" and explained that to his viewers. Just had a look at the ITV coverage - they were already supsicious and in anticipation before Kimi was announced the winner. So when Kimi was announced - wrongly! - everybody joined in in explaining why and the matter seemed closed.
So you're wrong: not everybody was sure about Fisi's win. And there was a quite general initial acceptance of the announced result, though many felt for Fisi. See here how it was accepted at first at the forum that evening (April 6): http://forums.autosp...w...=55471&st=0

Hours later, it was here at this very forum -OK, it was called Atlas then- that one or two people posted: "Hey, wait a minute! Have a good look at the exact time the red flag was shown and think where Fisi would have been at that moment!"
I can't find that exact thread now
- but here is the thread (April 11!) where the new classification was announced, and you can see how proud Bira - then the editor of this site- was that it was quite possibly a discussion on this very forum that made FIA think, look and hear again: http://forums.autosp...showtopic=55627



I think this is the link to that thread. http://forums.autosp...w...=55559&st=0

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 31 March 2013 - 00:08.


#29 Ravenak

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 00:17

I don't think anybody would think otherwise about how the FIA handled this.

For some reason you called this a devious Kimi/McLaren trick which is of course nonsense.


I didn't say it was a trick, I said Kimi stole the win from Fisichella for a little while, which is true. But let's not lose time on terminology, shall we.

#30 Myrvold

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 02:17

Was reading about Michael Park (WRC co-driver of Markko Martin) earlier. When he died, Sebastien Loeb deliberately incurred a time penalty because he didn't want to win that rally.


Both yes and no. Grönholm and Peugeot withdrew from the event, if Loeb won the rally, with Grönholm out, he would've been WDC. They felt a WDC because a team pulled out because of a fatality would be wrong. And therefor they got a time penalty.

#31 scheivlak

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 09:52

I think this is the link to that thread. http://forums.autosp...w...=55559&st=0

Great find!
Funny to read the whole ball of confusion back :D

#32 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 16:54

Great find!
Funny to read the whole ball of confusion back :D



It was a good discussion to read, the group of posters putting the facts together a piece at a time.

#33 Jon83

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 17:27

I doubt anyone who may have apologised for winning a race actually meant it.