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Horner is Bernie's mole - according to team principals


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#1 HPT

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 09:54

There is an interesting article in Autosport subscription services today - for a while now team principals have thought that Horner is Bernie's spy, divulging critical information regarding FOTA and other team meetings to Bernie. According to the article, written by Autosport's Dieter Rencken, Horner doesn't have any respect from the other TPs, and he has long been the subject of their many jokes.

Obviously I can't post the whole article but here's an excerpt:

All this led rival team bosses to make increasingly snide comments about Red Bull's management, with some referring to Horner as 'Mini Bernie'. Game-playing was very much in evidence: for example, in Malaysia a group of team principals met in full view of RBR's hospitality in the belief that they would be spotted and the absent Ecclestone informed.

According to one it took all of two minutes before Horner was seen on the telephone. "He could, of course, have been calling home…" said one with a wink.



This is all new to me. Wonder if this changes how anyone thinks of Horner?

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#2 03011969

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 10:00

There is an interesting article in Autosport subscription services today - for a while now team principals have thought that Horner is Bernie's spy, divulging critical information regarding FOTA and other team meetings to Bernie. According to the article, written by Autosport's Dieter Rencken, Horner doesn't have any respect from the other TPs, and he has long been the subject of their many jokes.

Obviously I can't post the whole article but here's an excerpt:

All this led rival team bosses to make increasingly snide comments about Red Bull's management, with some referring to Horner as 'Mini Bernie'. Game-playing was very much in evidence: for example, in Malaysia a group of team principals met in full view of RBR's hospitality in the belief that they would be spotted and the absent Ecclestone informed.

According to one it took all of two minutes before Horner was seen on the telephone. "He could, of course, have been calling home…" said one with a wink.



This is all new to me. Wonder if this changes how anyone thinks of Horner?

Could all be true. It wouldn't be unreasonable to suspect Horner stitching up the last 3 years championships has also pissed off the other bosses though.

#3 Owen

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 10:06

Horner must be busy as he's also Vettel's defence lawyer. :D

#4 Sin

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 10:08

... o.O yeah... doubt that... I seen Horner talk alot with Niki Lauda recently before races.... and that outside the interviews

maybe they are both spys

Edited by Sin, 29 March 2013 - 10:09.


#5 2ms

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 10:09

Hah, is this serious? It reads like an episode of Desperate Housewives or something.

#6 SpaMaster

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 10:19

Come on, this is low even by F1 fans/journalists' standards. There aren't other teams that get special favours from Ecclestone? Sure, this isn't sour grapes from others out of 3 consecutive WDCs and WCCs? I am not a fan of Horner. This kind of reporting says a lot about some of those team principals, writes and the fan, rather Horner himself. This is stooping low and a thread based on some nasty name-calling and rumours!

#7 prty

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 10:20

Not surprising...

#8 skid solo

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 10:23

Come on, this is low even by F1 fans/journalists' standards. There aren't other teams that get special favours from Ecclestone? Sure, this isn't sour grapes from others out of 3 consecutive WDCs and WCCs? I am not a fan of Horner. This kind of reporting says a lot about some of those team principals, writes and the fan, rather Horner himself. This is stooping low and a thread based on some nasty name-calling and rumours!


Bernies didn't get where he is by playing it straight and being a nice guy. He'll have all his bases covered..

I loved his quote on one of the many Vettel v Webber reads on is forum saying when his no 2 wouldn't agree to let his no 1 pass him if he was ahead they just made sure he didn't have enough fuel to finish the race..

#9 HPT

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 10:23

Come on, this is low even by F1 fans/journalists' standards. There aren't other teams that get special favours from Ecclestone? Sure, this isn't sour grapes from others out of 3 consecutive WDCs and WCCs? I am not a fan of Horner. This kind of reporting says a lot about some of those team principals, writes and the fan, rather Horner himself. This is stooping low and a thread based on some nasty name-calling and rumours!


Don't shoot the messenger. I'm sharing what I read to encourage discussion. I'm not here to discredit Horner. If you bother to check other threads, I'm actually quite fond of the man. I've always maintained that Horner is central to RBR's success and that he deserves all the credit he can get.

If you don't like the thread then don't contribute. It's quite simple really.

#10 baddog

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 10:26

Oh gods, what is FOTA the secret special friends club.. or maybe SPECTRE, and horner is going to get the dissapearing chair-shark tank treatment?



#11 HPT

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 10:31

Oh gods, what is FOTA the secret special friends club.. or maybe SPECTRE, and horner is going to get the dissapearing chair-shark tank treatment?


You do know that one of FOTA's key objectives is to negotiate better commercial deals for the teams right? Having inside info can be advantageous to Bernie's negotiation tactics.

#12 jcbc3

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 10:32

Hah, is this serious? It reads like an episode of Desperate Housewives or something.



Apt.

Since the article also states that Horner was only team principal attending Bernies wedding last year. Just sayin'......

#13 SpaMaster

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 10:34

Don't shoot the messenger. I'm sharing what I read to encourage discussion. I'm not here to discredit Horner. If you bother to check other threads, I'm actually quite fond of the man. I've always maintained that Horner is central to RBR's success and that he deserves all the credit he can get.

If you don't like the thread then don't contribute. It's quite simple really.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. Normally, when I see threads like this, it looks like the poster supports the view. If you don't and just wanted to point this out out of F1 interest, I won't blame you.

#14 Sennasational

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 10:41

Considering how much Horner sucks up to Vettel, it really wouldn't be so surprising if the snivelling toerag brown nosed Bernie to an even greater extent. The guy is a weasel.

Having said that... I can't say I'd care either way.

#15 undersquare

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 10:46

Hehe I love this story!

It does fit, does it not, with Bernie doing the post-concorde deal with Red Bull and Ferrari first...

Supporting Vettel & Horner this week...

Good on Autosport for running it, perhaps they deserve a subscription after all.

#16 Kelateboy

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 10:46

Sore losers....

#17 DILLIGAF

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 10:47

Bernies didn't get where he is by playing it straight and being a nice guy. He'll have all his bases covered..


Yep.

#18 femi

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 10:48

I don't like RB and certainly not a fan of MW and CH but for differing reasons. Having said that, is it not possible that this is a case of giving a dog a bad name or knocking a man when he's down?

#19 peroa

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 10:54

lol, as long as the other teams don't grow a pair it serves them right.
Getting bullied by the smallest kid in school... :drunk:

Williams had to get rid of Parr, because of Bernard.
Mercedes had to hire Lauda, because of Bernard.
etc.

Edited by peroa, 29 March 2013 - 10:54.


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#20 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 10:59

The ass-whupping that RBR have given the other leading teams since 2009 must have a long last impression. This attempt at character assassination is low, even by shoddy journalism standards.

#21 Sakae

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:07

There is an interesting article in Autosport subscription services today - for a while now team principals have thought that Horner is Bernie's spy, divulging critical information regarding FOTA and other team meetings to Bernie. According to the article, written by Autosport's Dieter Rencken, Horner doesn't have any respect from the other TPs, and he has long been the subject of their many jokes.

Obviously I can't post the whole article but here's an excerpt:

All this led rival team bosses to make increasingly snide comments about Red Bull's management, with some referring to Horner as 'Mini Bernie'. Game-playing was very much in evidence: for example, in Malaysia a group of team principals met in full view of RBR's hospitality in the belief that they would be spotted and the absent Ecclestone informed.

According to one it took all of two minutes before Horner was seen on the telephone. "He could, of course, have been calling home…" said one with a wink.



This is all new to me. Wonder if this changes how anyone thinks of Horner?

If true as alleged, my bet would be that Horner is acting on specific orders from the owner, who has his own agenda. (Go back to pre-CA period and rumors about three teams being treated differently than others, and DM (alleged) interest to have more say on commercial side).

#22 BuzzingHornet

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:13

Horner is doing what he needs to do and is doing it incredibly successfully. The old guard don't like it when a new upstart comes along and eats their lunch :)

He probably has a good laugh about it.

#23 HPT

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:14

Sorry for the misunderstanding. Normally, when I see threads like this, it looks like the poster supports the view. If you don't and just wanted to point this out out of F1 interest, I won't blame you.


:up:

#24 milestone 11

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:20

I was going to post something on this article last night. I applaud Dieter Rencken for at least having the courage to stick his head above the parapet.
Unfortunately though, those that haven't read the full article are missing the context. After the defection from FOTA, Red Bull were in a position to negotiate separately with Ecclestone.

The first operation he picked off was Red Bull, offering a team with no historic record of achievement save for – at that stage – two successive double championships (as per Renault in 2005/6) a premium substantially above the terms offered to McLaren, and dwarfing those offered to all others bar Ferrari, which was offered much the same, give or take 10 mil.

Proof of what a snake Horner is, is confirmed in yet another quote from the article.

That team principal Christian Horner late last year allegedly made contact with Ferrari, ostensibly to offer his services (together with those of design genius Adrian Newey – to whom Horner owes the vast part of his success, with Vettel's contribution over the years not being insignificant), further irked many, not least the present incumbents of rather senior positions in Maranello. Again, memories are long.

I somehow doubt that he can be trusted by anyone, including his own team hierarchy.

#25 undersquare

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:20

You can see why the other TP's might resent Horner. He has a huge budget with no worries about sponsors, Newey giving him the best car, with one of the best drivers and he doesn't even have a manager making demands.

Ferrari are there with advantages from FOM and tobacco, but after that neither Bernie nor Todt like McLaren (who aren't allowed even to run a legal floor), Bernie doesn't like Mercedes as a manufacturer and the others all have small budgets.

So is Horner a brilliant Team Principal or just someone who helps Bernie? Fact is, being on Bernie's team pays. As ever in F1 it's impossible to know for sure, but I wouldn't rule it out.

If you were a TP in F1 and Bernie asked you to be a mole, would you say yes or no? As peroa points out Adam Parr said no to Mr Ecclestone...

#26 jjcale

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:26

lol, as long as the other teams don't grow a pair it serves them right.
Getting bullied by the smallest kid in school... :drunk:

Williams had to get rid of Parr, because of Bernard.
Mercedes had to hire Lauda, because of Bernard.
etc.


And the rest of them would give up a nut to be "bernie's spy"...

#27 Sakae

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:27

You can see why the other TP's might resent Horner. He has a huge budget with no worries about sponsors, Newey giving him the best car, with one of the best drivers and he doesn't even have a manager making demands.

Ferrari are there with advantages from FOM and tobacco, but after that neither Bernie nor Todt like McLaren (who aren't allowed even to run a legal floor), Bernie doesn't like Mercedes as a manufacturer and the others all have small budgets.

So is Horner a brilliant Team Principal or just someone who helps Bernie? Fact is, being on Bernie's team pays. As ever in F1 it's impossible to know for sure, but I wouldn't rule it out.

If you were a TP in F1 and Bernie asked you to be a mole, would you say yes or no? As peroa points out Adam Parr said no to Mr Ecclestone...

What is he then getting back from FOM for such "services"? One can pretty much guess what he is getting back from the owner, had he received such instructions. (Perhaps such as - you can keep your job for now).

#28 HPT

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:29

That team principal Christian Horner late last year allegedly made contact with Ferrari, ostensibly to offer his services (together with those of design genius Adrian Newey – to whom Horner owes the vast part of his success, with Vettel's contribution over the years not being insignificant), further irked many, not least the present incumbents of rather senior positions in Maranello. Again, memories are long.


This part I really doubt though. How can Horner offer Newey's services to Ferrari when Newey himself said he doesn't want to go to Maranello? Something is not right there...

#29 naiboz

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:30

they'll be laughing at him on the other side of their faces if Horner ends up being Bernies successor :p

I'd be watching what I was saying

#30 undersquare

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:37

What is he then getting back from FOM for such "services"? One can pretty much guess what he is getting back from the owner, had he received such instructions. (Perhaps such as - you can keep your job for now).


Is this a serious question? He gets money and influence. Shares, percentage, a seat at the table on rules, resource restrictions, tyres, floor and wing tests; who knows it could be early warning on all kinds of things. It's amazing how Red Bull have come from nowhere in so few years to outrank McLaren in Bernie's F1.

#31 Sennasational

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:38

they'll be laughing at him on the other side of their faces if Horner ends up being Bernies successor :p

I'd be watching what I was saying


Bernie would want Horner, a guy who doesn't even have control over his employees to be his successor? A likely story. Horner is a joke.

#32 JimiKart

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:44

I never knew what a snake Horner was until yesterday when I saw the interview with the BBC guys after the Maylasian race. I totally believe this story as in that interview he demonstrated duplicitous double speak the like of which we haven't seen since Ron Dennis was covering for Hammy.

Yup Horner is a master Seb-apologist, he talks out of both sides of his mouth just like Ron, sucking and blowing at the same time.

#33 dau

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:45

I was going to post something on this article last night. I applaud Dieter Rencken for at least having the courage to stick his head above the parapet.
Unfortunately though, those that haven't read the full article are missing the context. After the defection from FOTA, Red Bull were in a position to negotiate separately with Ecclestone.

Proof of what a snake Horner is, is confirmed in yet another quote from the article.

I somehow doubt that he can be trusted by anyone, including his own team hierarchy.

So an allegation is proof for you?

Surely there must be more proof to all this than just "some" team principials seeing Horner on the phone near the RBR hospitality.

#34 Black Widow

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:48

This part I really doubt though. How can Horner offer Newey's services to Ferrari when Newey himself said he doesn't want to go to Maranello? Something is not right there...

Speculation only......

Wasn't there a short period of time where Newey was contracted to another team located outside of Britain but because Newey wanted to live in Britain the team set him up with offices in Britain?

If Horner did offer Newey's services then that probably means that Newey would still be located at Milton Keys and not Maranello. Would then make some sense.

As I said, just speculation.



#35 Sakae

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:48

Is this a serious question? He gets money and influence. Shares, percentage, a seat at the table on rules, resource restrictions, tyres, floor and wing tests; who knows it could be early warning on all kinds of things. It's amazing how Red Bull have come from nowhere in so few years to outrank McLaren in Bernie's F1.

This is far more allegations (or assumptions?) than I can absorb on one reading, to be frank.

#36 P123

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:51

This isn't new news. Red Bull were excluded from a teams meeting at one of the races last season for exactly the reason that they felt things dicussed behind closed doors were making their way to Ecclestone somehow.

#37 HPT

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:56

Speculation only......

Wasn't there a short period of time where Newey was contracted to another team located outside of Britain but because Newey wanted to live in Britain the team set him up with offices in Britain?

If Horner did offer Newey's services then that probably means that Newey would still be located at Milton Keys and not Maranello. Would then make some sense.

As I said, just speculation.


I believe that was John Barnard.

#38 Darth Sidious

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:56

Speculation only......

Wasn't there a short period of time where Newey was contracted to another team located outside of Britain but because Newey wanted to live in Britain the team set him up with offices in Britain?

If Horner did offer Newey's services then that probably means that Newey would still be located at Milton Keys and not Maranello. Would then make some sense.

As I said, just speculation.


Wasn't that John Barnard?

#39 Sakae

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:56

This isn't new news. Red Bull were excluded from a teams meeting at one of the races last season for exactly the reason that they felt things dicussed behind closed doors were making their way to Ecclestone somehow.

This begs a question - is FOTA alive, or ineffective/dysfunctional and dead for all practical purposes thanks to McLaren, Ferrari, and Red Bull?

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#40 P123

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:59

This begs a question - is FOTA alive, or ineffective/dysfunctional and dead for all practical purposes thanks to McLaren, Ferrari, and Red Bull?


It's not what it was. Ferrari, Red Bull and Sauber are no longer members.

#41 DKMoto

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 12:29

Sounds like a bunch of jealous butt hurt from the UK media and Autosport. Grasping at straws.

Shouldnt you guys go back to writing how awesome Lewis is and how Paul Di Resta is greatest driver in world in these + articles?

#42 One

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 12:39

Any team boss will negotiate for the good of their team, so I wonder what exactly this article means by Spy. Should Horner get advantage by the price of giving out secret information about other team's behind the closed door strategy for the sake of achieving more commercial interest, ... could happen, and none will like that. I just do not know if other tea principal might have done the same or not.

Never the less, Horner does not appear as the man with faith and strong operational authorioty. Horner is more like good at accomodating places for everyone and giving good excuses to whatever unfolding in his pout fit. So I can agree that Horner will just do the same during the negotiation with Bernie and give out what ever Bernie wants with no direct profit to his own team, in order for him to have an easy position to negotiate his interests.

Bernie's spy make it sounds like Horner get paid personaly from Bernie to the information that Horner make it available for Bernie. I am not too sure if Horner is that much of a fool.

#43 Black Widow

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 12:54

I believe that was John Barnard.

Thanks

Ooppss! Ignore what I said then...

Wrong person, wrong era. :blush:

#44 MikeV1987

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 13:31

The politics of F1 is like no other!

#45 yoyogetfunky

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 13:43

Sounds like a bunch of jealous butt hurt from the UK media and Autosport. Grasping at straws.

Shouldnt you guys go back to writing how awesome Lewis is and how Paul Di Resta is greatest driver in world in these + articles?


You have to admit that Horner turning down Saint Lewis was bound to create a lot of backlash and the slightest fart from main cause evil Vettel was turned into a stick for beating.;)

But seriously: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: at the amount of attacks on Red Bull. Now this personal attack on Christian Horner, in Autosport! THE motorsports authority. :lol: Red Bull really, really must be doing something very right atm. Or maybe Mateschitz should pull the plug on both RBR and Toro Rosso at the end of the year and leave these honest and likeable people alone.

#46 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 13:49

This is far more allegations (or assumptions?) than I can absorb on one reading, to be frank.



He He. Thats the old 'throw as much crap up into the air and hope that something sticks' routine. Similar to what is being attempted by the author or the source of the article itself.

At the root of it is just petty jealousy, and with Horner being criticized by some for weak management over his TO (he deserves that criticism) the timing is right for this type of thing to happen, kick him while he is down.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 29 March 2013 - 20:47.


#47 Sennasational

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 13:50

You have to admit that Horner turning down Saint Lewis was bound to create a lot of backlash and the slightest fart from main cause evil Vettel was turned into a stick for beating.;)

But seriously: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: at the amount of attacks on Red Bull. Now this personal attack on Christian Horner, in Autosport! THE motorsports authority. :lol: Red Bull really, really must be doing something very right atm. Or maybe Mateschitz should pull the plug on both RBR and Toro Rosso at the end of the year and leave these honest and likeable people alone.


Considering Red Bull Racing is an outfit of which the purpose is specifically to promote their brand, I'm not sure all the negative press will be going over with as many smiley faces at Milton Keynes, however true or fabricated it may be.


#48 ashley313

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 13:56

As a non-FOTA member I doubt CH is doing much reporting on the happenings inside FOTA meetings. He was on his phone? No way! A guy in charge of a Formula 1 team of 500 employees, at a race weekend, had to make a phone call?! How duplicitous! Seriously, he's always on his phone. Even on the pit wall. I'm sure they all are.

If you run a business with the aim of succeeding and making money, and there is an individual with great influence over your success and control of how much money you make, why WOULDN'T you want to have a close relationship with that person? That seems like a no brainer to me. Same goes for SV. Further, of course Bernie is inclined to play nice with the henchmen of a company that is providing not 1 but 2 teams to his grid, could be involved with funding a new race, and does bucket loads to promote the sport around the world.

CH and AN to Ferrari makes 0 sense any way you look at it.

#49 yoyogetfunky

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 14:00

Considering Red Bull Racing is an outfit of which the purpose is specifically to promote their brand, I'm not sure all the negative press will be going over with as many smiley faces at Milton Keynes, however true or fabricated it may be.


They have been in the firing line eversince they are building cars that are beating the established teams. Have you forgotten about the cheating accusations, how many times the teams had the FIA turn their cars inside out, convinced of secret ride height systems and what not? According to Horner, it comes with the territory. They are getting used to it. As for the brand: the RBR statistics nearly match long time racing team McLaren,and they have a driver in Vettel that beats all standing records when hes only 25. I think thats positive exposure. But who knows Mateschitz thinks at the end of this year that hes had enough of this amicable group of team managers, and let them rot in their own waste. If hes gone, thats 9 teams remaining in F1, with a few others in a bad financial situations. Good luck with the image of F1.

#50 MrFondue

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 14:00

Won't be the first time this year Rencken made stuff up...