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All voiturette races


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#1 HistoryFan

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 12:29

Has someone a complete list about all Voiturette Races?

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#2 Vitesse2

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 13:02

That question is about as easily answered as "how long is a piece of string?"

Or, to put it another way, and to quote Alice in Lewis Carroll's 'Alice in Wonderland': "A word can mean anything I want it to mean!"

"Voiturette" is a word which has never really had an official meaning within racing calendars - it was originally a trademark - and is generally used to denote races for smaller cars which had a maximum capacity limit lower than the then-prevailing pre-1947 Grand Prix formulae.

During the 1930s, the generally accepted definition of a voiturette was a car of up to 1500cc, but before then that definition falls down due to the fact that at various times there was either no mandated International Formula or even a 1500cc one. And from 1938 onwards it gets even more complicated.

Post-war and pre-F2 there are national formulae in France and Italy which are lumped in under the "voiturette" banner too. But neither of those admitted cars of more than 1100cc blown/2000cc unblown. Isolated events were held for these even after F2 was instituted in 1948.

You then have to consider various handicap races in Britain and elsewhere as well ...

Edited by Vitesse2, 30 March 2013 - 13:04.


#3 Eric Dunsdon

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 13:59

Has someone a complete list about all Voiturette Races?

David Venables book 'The Racing Fifteen-Hundreds. A History Of Voiturette Racing Froem 1931 to 1940' is an excellent source of information.

#4 Barttore

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 15:29

How about "A Record of Grand Prix and Voiturette Racing" by Sheldon and Rabagliati
Or Racing Voiturettes by Kent Karslake

Edited by Barttore, 30 March 2013 - 15:30.


#5 David McKinney

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 16:14

I don't think HistoryFan does books :)

#6 Vitesse2

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 16:52

I don't think HistoryFan does books :)

Especially not rare and expensive ones! :lol: Rose's "Record of Motor Racing" is equally relevant, come to that.

I hadn't wanted to get into the mire that is pre-Great War voiturette racing, but the books which have been mentioned illustrate my point exactly. As far as written history is concerned a "voiturette" race is whatever Messrs Rose, Karslake, Venables or Sheldon et al say it is. But there is no hard and fast rule as to what a voiturette race actually is. Even Sheldon bends his own rules at times.

Like so much of racing history before the establishment of the F1-F2-F3 ladder, it cannot be slotted into neat drawers. However much you might want to.

#7 D-Type

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 17:57

I suppose you could say that a voiturette races is any race for open-wheeled cars smaller than those complying with the Grand Prix formula, and before that the 'large' class of international races. The pre-WW1 Coupe de l'Auto races for example.
Post 1948 I suppose all Formula 2, Formula 3, Formula Atlantic, Formula Pacific, Formula Junior, Formula Renault, Formula Ford, Formula V etc races are technically 'voiturette' races - in fact probably any International Formulae apart from Formula 5000 and Formula Intercontinental. Or perhaps we should confine "voiturette" to the period before the introduction of Formula 2.

Sorry colonel, I know I'm referring only to Europe and excluding Indianapolis and US National racing.

#8 Charlieman

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 18:22

I suppose you could say that a voiturette races is any race for open-wheeled cars smaller than those complying with the Grand Prix formula, and before that the 'large' class of international races. The pre-WW1 Coupe de l'Auto races for example.


In which case, there are three distinct voiturette series:
* the pre-WW1 races run under a variety of formulae but smaller capacity than a GP car.
* 1926/27 when GP racing adopted voiturette specs (1500cc).
* the pre-1941 races for 1500cc single seaters.

In between the latter two series, Grand Prix racing operated under Formula Libre rules for some of the time. Presumably there were many races with a maximum capacity for cars that would not have been competitive at GP level.

I second the recommendation for the book by David Venables.

Incidentally, Pomeroy writes Voiturette with an upper case V when describing the pre-WW1 racers.

#9 David McKinney

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 20:52

* 1926/27 when GP racing adopted voiturette specs (1500cc)

Putting it simply, at this time the previous cyclecar class became the new voiturette class with an 1100 limit, and continued, side-by-side with the increasing number of 1500 races, into the 1930s


#10 HistoryFan

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 10:38

I don't think HistoryFan does books :)


I do books, but first I had not the knowing about these books and second I'm student, so I have just money für one book a month.


#11 taylov

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 14:55

I do books, but first I had not the knowing about these books and second I'm student, so I have just money für one book a month.


There are some comprehensive entry/results data on-line at http://www.formula2.net/
These cover voiturettes 1931-1936 and 1939-1940 plus post-war races from 1946-1959 (mainly to 1500cc limits).

The data for 1937-1938 can be found at http://www.kolumbus....ellman/main.htm

Tony

Edited by taylov, 31 March 2013 - 14:59.


#12 uechtel

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 09:26

Or perhaps we should confine "voiturette" to the period before the introduction of Formula 2.


Formula 2 was nothing else than to continue the Voiturette de-facto formula 'idea' as something official.

(In the 'formula discussions' in this forum I often see the problem of mismatch between the formula itself (means the technical limitations like engine capactity, weight etc.) and the purpose of the Formula as a whole. Therefore I used the word 'idea' to underline that it was *technically* not the same (different engine size etc.), but for the same *purpose* = to give the organizers the choice of something cheaper promising larger fields and closer competition than the top level Grand Prix formula.)

#13 D-Type

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 12:35

I agree totally. Particularly when considering the 'idea' over 50 - 60 years. It's always been cars that are slower / smaller / cheaper than the top flight.

#14 Charlieman

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 21:20

Formula 2 was nothing else than to continue the Voiturette de-facto formula 'idea' as something official.


I think that is a fair summary and I like your argument about the purpose of officially defined Formulae. The definition of Formula 2/II eliminated Voiturettes as an informal class.

But let's remember that a Voiturette series (an unofficial set of series for 1500cc cars) existed somewhere between 1931 and 1940. It was the Formula 2 or Formula II of its day and lots of race organisers recognised it as an unofficial standard. There was no European cup at the end of the season, but it became very important for Italian and British racers. It grew interesting enough for the Germans to get involved even if Tripoli GP rules hadn't changed.

It was still furiously expensive motor sport.

Pre-WW1 Voiturette rules changed race by race. At the time, manufacturers built cars for specific races, but some chose to build for the small capacity class. It was difficult enough to settle GP rules so a standard Voiturette class never existed.


#15 uechtel

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 21:29

Yes, but the difference was, that until 1948 it was down to each race organizer to define what to understand as a 'voiturette', which makes it probably almost impossible to gather "all voiturette races", as it will be difficult to draw the line. Even in 1948 there were stiill a lot of 1.1 s/c /2.0 u/c events parallel to "official" Formula 2 races.

#16 tsrwright

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 10:47

Putting it simply, at this time the previous cyclecar class became the new voiturette class with an 1100 limit, and continued, side-by-side with the increasing number of 1500 races, into the 1930s


I"m not sure it is as simple as a 1100cc limit, David. According to Rodney Walkerly (Brooklands to Goodwood) in 1912 a meeting of the ACU and RAC adopted definitions of three and four wheeled cyclecars which were to come under ACU jurisdiction. These rules were adopted by the FICM later that year and were:

Group 1 (large) Max weight 772lb, max capacity 1100cc (International Class G)
Group 2 (small) Max weight 660lb, max capacity 750cc (International Class H)

The most recent FIM World Record book (1979) has an article by T W Loughborough, long time Secretary General when the FICM/FIM was based in London, which states that in 1924 the FICM recognised the following with minimum weight 250kg and minimum diameter of tyres 75mm [sic] :

Classes H1&2 (1 &2 seats) up to 750cc
Classes J1&2 (1 &2 seats) up to 1100cc

Thus various Salmson, Calthorpe, Singer and GN four-wheeled cars featured in the FICM record book as at1 January 1925. At the FICM Congress on 30 October 1925 it was reported that it had been agreed with the AIACR that all control of 4 wheeled vehicles would be by the AIACR and of 3 wheeled vehicles by the FICM. However, national bodies could opt out if they agreed between them to do so.

It would interesting to know what races were actually conducted under international or national cyclecar definitions as distinct from the looser concept of the voiturette up to 1100cc.
There was the Amiens race of 1913 and there would have been others but for WW1. David Venables (The Racing Fifteen-Hundreds) mentions Le Mans in 1920 and 1921 and Brescia in 1921 as having separate cyclecar races with Morgan entries so presumably these were held under FICM international cyclecar rules or similar.

Edited by tsrwright, 06 April 2013 - 10:57.


#17 David McKinney

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 13:32

I"m not sure it is as simple as a 1100cc limit, David.

Perhaps not, Terry, but my version's shorter :lol:

My reference was specifically to the period immediately before the 1926/27 1½-litre Grand Prix formula, when voiturette races were usually for cars under 1500cc, and cyclecars under 1100cc (and less often 750cc). When the GP formula changed in 1926, most voiturette races dropped to an 1100cc maximum

The first small-car formulae, early in the century, had been known as Voitures Legères (Light Cars) and Voiturettes (little cars) and tended to be based on weight maxima


#18 tsrwright

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 02:01

My reference was specifically to the period immediately before the 1926/27 1½-litre Grand Prix formula, when voiturette races were usually for cars under 1500cc, and cyclecars under 1100cc (and less often 750cc). When the GP formula changed in 1926, most voiturette races dropped to an 1100cc maximum


Sure, I follow that but were there official classes or even separate races specifically for 'cyclecars'? And were they run under FICM or AIACR international or equivalent national rules?

I think it's important to know more because the 'minor' events or classes often get lost in the reporting or telling of history, so it can get distorted by emphasis on the big names and capacities. For example, the AAA big car races of the same period (at least sometimes) had 'junior' supporting races but I haven't yet found any reports and anyone who knows what they were.

#19 David McKinney

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 05:41

There certainly were separate 1100 races in Europe in the early '20s, though in truth they weren't always called cyclecar races in that period - "1100cc voiturettes" was becoming a common alternative There were also a few dedicated 750 events

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#20 Michael Ferner

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 11:40

Found this thread by chance, never noticed it when it was new (something to do with the OP? :o), but wanted to add that Terry Wright makes a very good point: Cyclecars were the FICM version of Voiturettes, not a lower category, and what most people here refer to as Voiturettes really were Light cars. Formula Three is the "successor" to Voiturette racing, not Formula Two.

#21 uechtel

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 11:50

Sorry to disagree, but in my opinion Formula 2 of 1948 was for the same purpose as the previous Voiturette races. Events of (almost) Grand Prix status (Tripolis etc.) with slightly smaller cars. Hence the "2nd Grand Prix Formula". Formula 3, when it was intriduced, was more or less intended as a "self-built"-class for very amateur drivers.

 

But I agree that Cyclecars are Voiturettes as well. I think the reason why they are somtimes (mostly?) regarded as a category of its own is because of Sheldon.


Edited by uechtel, 14 October 2016 - 11:52.


#22 Michael Ferner

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 16:23

Ah, but therein lies the rub! Those "previous Voiturette races" were already misnamed. Not really sure where the rot set in, but I suspect it was the 1911 Coupe de l'Auto, which changed from Voiturettes to Light cars that year. People were used to calling the Coupe de l'Auto cars Voiturettes, and the name was then often wrongly applied to the pre-WW1 3-litre Light cars, and later to the "Racing Fifteen-Hundreds". It's totally absurd to call a Maserati 6CM or an ERA a Voiturette!! As you rightfully say (well, write), it was the "2nd GP Formula" with slightly smaller cars, hence Light cars, Voitures légères - Voiturettes have always been (more or less) homebuilt specials for the amateur drivers! :)

Edited by Michael Ferner, 28 November 2016 - 16:30.


#23 RogerFrench

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 17:35

Totally absurd? On a question that's surely a semantic issue?
Besides, taking 1937 as an example, a blown 1500 seems to me to be decidedly "voiturette" relative to a blown 5.6 litre W125. Donington seemed to suggest that too.

#24 uechtel

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 08:01

I see it´s only a matter of wording, for the rest I agree. There is a category of "2nd class Grand Prix cars" and a class of "homebuilt amatuer racers". So if you want also the term "Formula 3" would be misleading, suggesting, that it would have been a third Grand Prix formula. Well, you can argue, that the Monaco and Macau F3 races would have such a status, but I don´t think it would fit to the scenery of 1950.



#25 Michael Ferner

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 08:27

It may be just semantics, but it's still annoying. A bit like calling Scots Englishmen.

When you look at how it all evolved, it's really difficult to see how a Ferrari 500 or a March 832 could possibly be called a Voiturette. It doesn't sound right, it doesn't look right, it doesn't feel right, and it definitely isn't right. Even back in the twenties and thirties, the name Voiturette was rarely used; it mostly started with the Black Books again. And with that, it was copied over and over again. Once an error like that is in the system, it's nigh impossible to get rid of it.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 29 November 2016 - 08:27.


#26 uechtel

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 14:51

I thought Venables was responsible for this. Were the black books earlier?



#27 Michael Ferner

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Posted 01 December 2016 - 13:07

Well, Venables does indeed write a lot about "voiturettes", even if the book's title "The Racing Fifteen-Hundreds" is sort of non-committal. It predates the Black Books by a couple years, but Sheldon et al had already published other titles before that. What about Kent Karslake, "The Racing Voiturette"?

Edited by Michael Ferner, 01 December 2016 - 13:08.