19 replies to this topic

[Jake Alderson]

Does anyone have an entry list and/or results for the GT race over 1,600cc?
As usual for me my interest is the Morgans and the Autosport gives mention of only one.
Thanks
Jake Alderson

[john winfield]

Does anyone have an entry list and/or results for the GT race over 1,600cc?
As usual for me my interest is the Morgans and the Autosport gives mention of only one.
Thanks
Jake Alderson

Here's a scrappy scan, Jake, the best that I can do for the moment. My first sight, aged 6, of cars on the Grand Prix circuit; the names de Udy, Roger Mac and the Hon. E.H.B. Portman have remained with me ever since!
Good entry which includes, on paper, three Morgans, although I don't know where they finished, or even if all three started.



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[D-Type]

It's interesting to see a Jaguar-powered Allard being raced. And the Cobra (must be one of the first) being described as Shelby American and not AC

[Jake Alderson]

Here's a scrappy scan, Jake, the best that I can do for the moment. My first sight, aged 6, of cars on the Grand Prix circuit; the names de Udy, Roger Mac and the Hon. E.H.B. Portman have remained with me ever since!
Good entry which includes, on paper, three Morgans, although I don't know where they finished, or even if all three started.



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Thanks John,
That is just brilliant and confirms my thoughts of other Morgans.
I am most grateful
Jake

[nicanary]

It's interesting to see a Jaguar-powered Allard being raced. And the Cobra (must be one of the first) being described as Shelby American and not AC

I think that's probably the old ex-Sopwith Sphinx, based on an Allard J2 and originally Armstrong-Siddeley powered. Brian Croot later fitted it with the Jaguar engine.

[Alfie]

Also interesting is the presence on the list of Rob Beck's Jaguar Egal.

That dates it further back than I originally thought. Can anyone tell me when it was built originally?

[john winfield]

Jake,
Glad the scan was of use.
Leafing through the programme, the 3rd Clubmen's Championship, there are lots of good things. Eight races in all, the over 1600 GTs being the last event.
1. Vintage & Venerable. Morley/Bentley, Kerr/Alvis etc.

2. Britax Saloons. Bo Pittard, Phil de Banks, Doc Merfield, Norman Abbott, Ted Bunce, Pat Coundley, Liz McKechnie, Steve Neal (still involved at Brands today!), Mary Taylor, Harry Ratcliffe, André Baldet, Malcolm Golden, Jacqui Bond-Smith etc.

3. Formula 3. John Miles, Roger Mac, Arthur Mallock, Keith St. John, John Fenning, John Britten etc.

4. GT up to 1600. J. Delmar Morgan/Emery, Jem Marsh, Mark Konig, Sid Taylor?, Doug Mockford/Diva, Harry Stiller etc.

5. 750/1172. Bergonzi/DRW etc.

6. Sports. Paul Hawkins, Charles Lucas, Peter Gaydon/U2, Rollo Fielding, Bluebelle Gibbs, Roger Nathan, Rhoddy Harvey-Bailey etc.

7. Historic & Modern. Pat Lindsay, Dan Margulies, Peter Hawtin/ Cooper, Jack Pearce, Chris Summers etc.

8. GTs over 1600 as above. As far as I know, Roger Mac's E-Type won its class, with Rob Beck's Jaguar-Egal fourth. Not sure where they were in relation to class winners Mike de Udy's Porsche (904?) and Eddie Portman's Ferrari (250 Le Mans Berlinetta?).

Edited by john winfield, 31 March 2013 - 18:09.

[Jake Alderson]

Jake,
Glad the scan was of use.
Leafing through the programme, the 3rd Clubmen's Championship, there are lots of good things. Eight races in all, the over 1600 GTs being the last event.
1. Vintage & Venerable. Morley/Bentley, Kerr/Alvis etc.

2. Britax Saloons. Bo Pittard, Phil de Banks, Doc Merfield, Norman Abbott, Ted Bunce, Pat Coundley, Liz McKechnie, Steve Neal (still involved at Brands today!), Mary Taylor, Harry Ratcliffe, André Baldet, Malcolm Golden, Jacqui Bond-Smith etc.

3. Formula 3. John Miles, Roger Mac, Arthur Mallock, Keith St. John, John Fenning, John Britten etc.

4. GT up to 1600. J. Delmar Morgan/Emery, Jem Marsh, Mark Konig, Sid Taylor?, Doug Mockford/Diva, Harry Stiller etc.

5. 750/1172. Bergonzi/DRW etc.

6. Sports. Paul Hawkins, Charles Lucas, Peter Gaydon/U2, Rollo Fielding, Bluebelle Gibbs, Roger Nathan, Rhoddy Harvey-Bailey etc.

7. Historic & Modern. Pat Lindsay, Dan Margulies, Peter Hawtin/ Cooper, Jack Pearce, Chris Summers etc.

8. GTs over 1600 as above. As far as I know, Roger Mac's E-Type won its class, with Rob Beck's Jaguar-Egal fourth. Not sure where they were in relation to class winners Mike de Udy's Porsche (904?) and Eddie Portman's Ferrari (250 Le Mans Berlinetta?).

What is interesting in the GT class results is that your programme results gives the 2000 to 3000cc class to Hon Ed Portman's Ferrari 250LM, whereas Autosport gives it to Alan House's Morgan! There are some very odd cars racing and some were certainly not homologated as GT cars by the FIA. The Ferrari was one at this time. Could that be the reason?
Jake

[john winfield]

What is interesting in the GT class results is that your programme results gives the 2000 to 3000cc class to Hon Ed Portman's Ferrari 250LM, whereas Autosport gives it to Alan House's Morgan! There are some very odd cars racing and some were certainly not homologated as GT cars by the FIA. The Ferrari was one at this time. Could that be the reason?
Jake

I was six years old and I loved Ferraris. Perhaps that's why Portman 'won' his class! The Autosport report and results might be more accurate, unless of course their reporter particularly liked Morgans.

Edited by john winfield, 01 April 2013 - 13:45.

[D-Type]

I was six years old and I loved Ferraris. Perhaps that's why Portman 'won' his class! The Autosport report and results might be more accurate, unless of course their reporter particularly liked Morgans.

Oooh! Didn't you write well for a six-year-old! Or, did Dad write the results in for you?

But do we know the age of the Autosport reporter? By all accounts because of budget constraints they used some fairly dubious writers

[john winfield]

Oooh! Didn't you write well for a six-year-old! Or, did Dad write the results in for you?

Originally written in pencil, overwritten in pen later! Probably when I was about 39.......

But do we know the age of the Autosport reporter? By all accounts because of budget constraints they used some fairly dubious writers

Yes, terrible weren't they? Simon T in short trousers.......

Edited by john winfield, 01 April 2013 - 14:12.

[David McKinney]

But do we know the age of the Autosport reporter? By all accounts because of budget constraints they used some fairly dubious writers

Better not let Patrick McNally hear you say that
It's his name on the Autosport report

And if Portman's Ferrari was his 250LM, it would have been 3.3 litres, and therefore in the E-type class

[john winfield]

Better not let Patrick McNally hear you say that
It's his name on the Autosport report

And if Portman's Ferrari was his 250LM, it would have been 3.3 litres, and therefore in the E-type class

David, so do you have an idea what type of Ferrari Portman would have been driving with a 2953cc engine?

[pete53]

Portman raced the John Coombs 250 GTO (3792) on several occasions in 1964 so presumably it was this car that he was driving at Silverstone.

[David McKinney]

David, so do you have an idea what type of Ferrari Portman would have been driving with a 2953cc engine?

You mean I should have checked the programme scan before posting?

[john winfield]

You mean I should have checked the programme scan before posting?

No, not at all! I'm thoroughly confused. I think I remember the Ferrari being more 250LM shape rather than GTO but which Ferraris from that period were powered by (just under) 3 litre engines and did Portman have one? I read your comment to mean that Portman's 250LM was a 3.3 and therefore couldn't have been the one listed in the programme.

Edited by john winfield, 01 April 2013 - 16:54.

[David McKinney]

I'm not a Ferrari expert, but have always believed the 250LM capacity - apart from one or two early cars - was 3.3 litres, hence their sometimes being called 275LMs today (incorrectly, IMHO), and my comment

A much likelier mount for Portman in 1964 would have been Robert Perry's 2953cc GTO (ex-Coombs 3729)

[bradbury west]

That was my recollection too, David, so I checked. Massini has it that only the prototype had a 3 litre engine, and that was changed pretty soon after the car's build. The Portman car was sold on to Salvadori, seemingly unused. RS sold it on again.
Roger Lund

[RCH]

The LM Ferrari was always called 250LM although technically it should have been 275LM. I assume that was part of Enzo's attempts to convince the FIA that it was no more than a 250GTO evolution. The 250GTO-64 had a very LM esque body. So who won overall? I'm surprised to see Jack Sears there in a Cobra and Protheroe in a Jaguar, although curiously EH? Also I thought the Jaguar Egal appeared later as Alfie has said.

[john winfield]

The LM Ferrari was always called 250LM although technically it should have been 275LM. I assume that was part of Enzo's attempts to convince the FIA that it was no more than a 250GTO evolution. The 250GTO-64 had a very LM esque body. So who won overall? I'm surprised to see Jack Sears there in a Cobra and Protheroe in a Jaguar, although curiously EH? Also I thought the Jaguar Egal appeared later as Alfie has said.

I'll check later this week with my brother, whose programme might contain more factual information. He wouldn't have let personal preference influence his results section either! He might even have a few photos.

I do like Silverstone programmes from the 1960s but entry lists with car make, but no model details, can be a challenge for all but the experts. It has taken me a while even to understand the Ferrari LM / 3.3 litre debate above! I think I'm there now....cylinder capacity...... 3 litre / 12 x 250, 3.3 litre / 12 x 275?

Edited by john winfield, 02 April 2013 - 08:02.