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Team Orders - Surprised by Attitude Change


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#1 flymo

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 14:53

I'm not sure if I'm alone in this, but I am very surprised by the tone of the rhetoric I am seeing in the aftermath of the Malaysia team orders row. As recently as 2010, team orders were illegal, and were sneered at as the sort of "illegal unsporting behaviour practised only by those naughty Machiavellian boys at Ferrari" and would of course never be undertaken by any right-thinking race team. Now, only a few years into the era of legalisation, obedience to team orders has become the very highest sacred duty of the race driver. Why the attitude shift? Is it real, or just something stirred up by the press?

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#2 LB

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 15:00

Well I for one am happy vettel stuck two fingers up andwent screw you im winning. I wish barrichello did too.

#3 mgs315

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 15:03

I wouldn't say it's the issue that team orders happen that has people taking at the moment (that conversation ship sailed not long after they were made legal again) but more at the fact that team orders were ignored.

Also, a team order to actually swap the order of the cars tends to look crappier in some people's eyes instead of an order to 'hold position, lets get these 2 cars home'.

Edited by mgs315, 31 March 2013 - 15:04.


#4 Kvothe

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 15:07

Has there been an attitude shift? As pointed out in another thread, neither Mercedes, nor Red Bull ordered one driver aside for the other like Ferrari. instead team orders were implemented to keep cars in position during the final parts of a race, with the overt rationale being to maximise points (whatever the underlying motive may be), and get cars both home safely to the end, with Turkey 2010 held up as justification. Such motives make them more understandable and palatable, even if some still disagree with them, and they tend to leave less of a bad taste when compared to the Ferrari example since there is at least the promise that the other driver would be treated the same in the exact same position, and isn't a genuine no.2

#5 Sin

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 15:10

depends who you ask in germany you will get the result of people being in majority against teamorders, while here you seem to have a 50% 50% poll about stuff like that

#6 Kelateboy

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 15:12

I wouldn't say it's the issue that team orders happen that has people taking at the moment (that conversation ship sailed not long after they were made legal again) but more at the fact that team orders were ignored.

Also, a team order to actually swap the order of the cars tends to look crappier in some people's eyes instead of an order to 'hold position, lets get these 2 cars home'.

There was a poll conducted by f1fanatic website, and the results to-date are as follow :-

Were RBR right to order Vettel not to pass Webber?
YES 49% NO 46% NO OPINION 5%

Were Mercedes right to order Rosberg not to pass Hamilton?
YES 24% NO 73% NO OPINION 3%

http://www.f1fanatic...es-team-orders/

Maybe you can get Autosport very own poll up and running in this thread to gauge the readers' sentiment... :)


#7 Kelateboy

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 15:13

depends who you ask in germany you will get the result of people being in majority against teamorders, while here you seem to have a 50% 50% poll about stuff like that

Sorry, but where is here?

#8 Fudce

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 15:18

I don't think it was team orders itself that has got people upset, it's that that one driver respected them whilst the other didn't.

#9 Sin

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 15:20

Sorry, but where is here?


here is this board

#10 BillBald

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 15:25

Well I for one am happy vettel stuck two fingers up andwent screw you im winning. I wish barrichello did too.


Some would say that Vettel enjoys the protection of senior figures in the team, and that was why he was able to say 'screw you' - plus the fact that he's a 3x WDC.

That wasn't the case with Rubens at Ferrari, and it's not the case for many drivers in any team.

If most drivers followed Vettel's example, the 2013 Silly Season thread would suddenly become very active.



#11 MikeV1987

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 15:28

100% agree with you flymo, the British press have blown this way out of proportion and it seems like lots of fans fell for it.

#12 study

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 15:31

100% agree with you flymo, the British press have blown this way out of proportion and it seems like lots of fans fell for it.


:rotfl:

Its always that darned British Press, the swines :stoned:

#13 zombie1965

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 15:33

IMHO team orders are not ok especially if a change of track position is involved, however a hold station order is justifiable in the closing stages of a race if a passing attempt is looking to risky and nether driver is likely to yeild. its in the teams best interest to give an order to maximise WCC points and insure both cars finish the race without incident. BOTH drivers have to comply in every situation otherwise trust is lost and then its every man for himself Ie.. no more team orders. :smoking:

#14 racerbaz

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 15:38

Well I for one am happy vettel stuck two fingers up and went screw you i'm winning. I wish barrichello did too.

Me too - racing drivers are put on the planet to race - not to give way !
I think there should be an offence called 'refusing to race' and drivers should be punished if found guilty of it !
While they are all invariably fine racing drivers, those who decide to obey team orders and not race, lose many peoples respect from that very point on.
It is arguable that they become second class in everyone's eyes from that point on.
Perhaps they had already lost the teams respect before the point when they were ordered to give way ?
My attitude has hardened over the years AGAINST team orders as they are a cancer destroying competition and racing.



#15 MikeV1987

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 15:39

:rotfl:

Its always that darned British Press, the swines :stoned:


Here is a prime example
http://www.dailymail...ian-Vettel.html

If you don't think the media plays fans like musical instruments then you are kidding yourself :lol:

Edited by MikeV1987, 31 March 2013 - 15:39.


#16 study

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 15:42

Wow, amazing a newspaper reporting a sports story told them to them by one of the owners of the sport, I suppose they shouldn't be bad and should just keep quiet and not say anything even when people speak to them.

#17 Szoelloe

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 15:43

depends who you ask in germany you will get the result of people being in majority against teamorders, while here you seem to have a 50% 50% poll about stuff like that



If you ask the right people in Germany you will get your 50% there too. There is absolutely no shift in the general view on team orders for the past 40 years. Casual fans find it disgusting especially when team orders don't favor their favored driver. As soon as it does though, it's usually all right. Quite normal, I would say, but then, casual fans usually think F1 is a sport. Team orders are an accepted fact to live with for the majority of hardcore fans, not to speak of insiders. As long as there are two cars/team, and a WCC is awarded, there will be team orders, however much we whine about it. There always will be debates about the circumstances involved, or if they were necessary, I can understand that, but team orders were always here, and are not going away either.



#18 study

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 15:45

If you don't think the media plays fans like musical instruments then you are kidding yourself :lol:


I'm just not deluded enough that its only British Press making things up and being evil, while german and italian press are paragons of virtue.

#19 Sin

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 15:47

If you ask the right people in Germany you will get your 50% there too. There is absolutely no shift in the general view on team orders for the past 40 years. Casual fans find it disgusting especially when team orders don't favor their favored driver. As soon as it does though, it's usually all right. Quite normal, I would say, but then, casual fans usually think F1 is a sport. Team orders are an accepted fact to live with for the majority of hardcore fans, not to speak of insiders. As long as there are two cars/team, and a WCC is awarded, there will be team orders, however much we whine about it. There always will be debates about the circumstances involved, or if they were necessary, I can understand that, but team orders were always here, and are not going away either.


yeah that is not how polls work tho polls are about general opinion... from all kinds of people not from a picked group of people...

if you only ask neonazis if Hitler was a good guy you would get a majority finding him great---

I generally and ALWAYS disliked team orders.... and yeah I dont go into the depths of hardcore and casual fans... since quite simply I think you are wrong... and just see the things as you want them to see

Edited by Sin, 31 March 2013 - 15:49.


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#20 Bleu

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 15:52

Team order "let x pass" has always caused more drama than order "hold position".

#21 Zil

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 15:59

The reason is pretty simple actually. The driver that was disobeying the "bad and unsporting" teamorders (pre Malaysia that is) is by far the most disliked driver around at the moment. There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that if the roles were reversed, Webber would have been hailed as a "true" racer sticking it to evil RB while Vettel would have been called a little whining b*** that was getting preferred treatment.

#22 Sakae

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 16:07

This all wrong, methinks, and we are debating a wrong issue IMO. Vettel's case is in the center of many conversations, yet tire issue is slipping under the radar. Focus should be on main attraction, which is why there was need (in view of RBR management at least) to issue those orders in the first place? It's a second race FFS, and we are stopping racing after a second pit stop? To me it's a disaster in making.

#23 bub

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 16:09

I'm not sure if I'm alone in this, but I am very surprised by the tone of the rhetoric I am seeing in the aftermath of the Malaysia team orders row. As recently as 2010, team orders were illegal, and were sneered at as the sort of "illegal unsporting behaviour practised only by those naughty Machiavellian boys at Ferrari" and would of course never be undertaken by any right-thinking race team. Now, only a few years into the era of legalisation, obedience to team orders has become the very highest sacred duty of the race driver. Why the attitude shift? Is it real, or just something stirred up by the press?


I can't speak for others but for me it's not about attitude to team orders/whether they are right or wrong, I have no opinion/preference on that. If they're legal then they're fine, if they're not legal then they're wrong imo. I don't mind seeing F1 as an individual sport where everybody races everybody or as a team sport where different teams race each other and more tactics/team orders are involved or as it is now when each team can choose to use team orders or let their drivers race.

For me obeying team orders is important because it's about being team player and F1 is a team sport.

Edited by bub, 31 March 2013 - 16:26.


#24 Rurouni

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 16:10

I believe people still like no TO. But the OP must understand that what happened in Malaysia isn't just about Vettel ignoring the TO but more about Vettel having an unfair advantage by ignoring TO and that was definitely not racing.

Basically TO to hold position like RBR did at Malaysia ,for me, was acceptable because it didn't give an unfair advantage to either drivers. Vettel should try to overtake Webber before the last stop. If it was the team fault that Vettel ended up behind Webber, he should take it out to the team and not compromise his team mate.
The Merc one was more unacceptable because the driver behind obviously have something more thus even if they need to use TO, it would be to allow Rosberg to pass Hamilton.

In the end, I would prefer no TO. But it's unrealistic to prevent any TO considering the fact that this is a combination of team sport and individual sport. If a team employ TO, I expect that it is for the interest of the team alone without giving a major advantage to their drivers. There is an exception though... if one of the driver is fighting for WDC and the other one isn't, then TO to give an advantage to their no.1 is kinda okay (maybe not really okay, but understandable).

#25 Szoelloe

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 16:11

yeah that is not how polls work tho polls are about general opinion... from all kinds of people not from a picked group of people...

if you only ask neonazis if Hitler was a good guy you would get a majority finding him great---

I generally and ALWAYS disliked team orders.... and yeah I dont go into the depths of hardcore and casual fans... since quite simply I think you are wrong... and just see the things as you want them to see


? Have I said I liked TO? I just said whining about it will not make them go away. In fact, Outlawing them has not made them go away. Your opinion is respected, but you have posted nothing that makes TO's unreasonable. I won't comment on your analogy because you are german, and your gender. But please, answer me this: Why weren't you so eager to post on this topic when SV was on the favored end of TO's for the past 3 seasons, with his second dad hovering over the pitwall every race?


#26 Sin

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 16:13

? Have I said I liked TO? I just said whining about it will not make them go away. In fact, Outlawing them has not made them go away. Your opinion is respected, but you have posted nothing that makes TO's unreasonable. I won't comment on your analogy because you are german, and your gender. But please, answer me this: Why weren't you so eager to post on this topic when SV was on the favored end of TO's for the past 3 seasons, with his second dad hovering over the pitwall every race?


pretty simple cause I joined this board December 2012 and first started watching F1 again India 2011 to begin with after I stopped when Jordan threw out HHF

#27 discover23

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 16:13

As recently as 2010, team orders were illegal, and were sneered at as the sort of "illegal unsporting behaviour practised only by those naughty Machiavellian boys at Ferrari" and would of course never be undertaken by any right-thinking race team.

How misinformed have you been.

#28 Szoelloe

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 16:16

pretty simple cause I joined this board December 2012 and first started watching F1 again India 2011 to begin with after I stopped when Jordan threw out HHF


That's convenient. Sorry about HHF though, he deserved more. Let's just agree to/and disagree.


#29 Watkins74

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 16:22

I don't believe team orders really bothers people when it is to win a Championship but when it happens in the 2nd race by not only one but two teams it is a kind of annoying.

JMHO

#30 study

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 16:27

It helps when it involves two of the top three drivers in haters in F1.

#31 P123

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 16:30

I don't believe team orders really bothers people when it is to win a Championship but when it happens in the 2nd race by not only one but two teams it is a kind of annoying.

JMHO


Agreed. If they can be clearly justified then I don't think people will complain (except those with a serious grievance against team or driver). Kimi and Massa both gave up positions during their championship fights in '07 and '08 but that went by without comment as they were clearly necessary.

#32 zombie1965

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 16:31

I believe people still like no TO. But the OP must understand that what happened in Malaysia isn't just about Vettel ignoring the TO but more about Vettel having an unfair advantage by ignoring TO and that was definitely not racing.

Basically TO to hold position like RBR did at Malaysia ,for me, was acceptable because it didn't give an unfair advantage to either drivers.
In the end, I would prefer no TO. But it's unrealistic to prevent any TO considering the fact that this is a combination of team sport and individual sport. If a team employ TO, I expect that it is for the interest of the team alone without giving a major advantage to their drivers. There is an exception though... if one of the driver is fighting for WDC and the other one isn't, then TO to give an advantage to their no.1 is kinda okay (maybe not really okay, but understandable).



Fully Agree, sensible post

#33 yoyogetfunky

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 16:34

I'm not sure if I'm alone in this, but I am very surprised by the tone of the rhetoric I am seeing in the aftermath of the Malaysia team orders row. As recently as 2010, team orders were illegal, and were sneered at as the sort of "illegal unsporting behaviour practised only by those naughty Machiavellian boys at Ferrari" and would of course never be undertaken by any right-thinking race team. Now, only a few years into the era of legalisation, obedience to team orders has become the very highest sacred duty of the race driver. Why the attitude shift? Is it real, or just something stirred up by the press?


Hockenheim 2008: Blue team: Driver B, driver A is faster than you! Allround praise by the press, denial by team it was a team order, no action by the FIA.

Hockenheim 2010: Red team: Driver B, driver A is faster than you! Allround condemnation by the press even when the team admitted it was a team order, and a $100.000 fine from the FIA.

Conclusion: attitude shift has to do with biased opinions.

#34 discover23

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 16:37

Agreed. If they can be clearly justified then I don't think people will complain (except those with a serious grievance against team or driver). Kimi and Massa both gave up positions during their championship fights in '07 and '08 but that went by without comment as they were clearly necessary.

I don't get this - mathematically and in theory and definition they are the exact same thing..

#35 study

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 16:40

Hockenheim 2008: Blue team: Driver B, driver A is faster than you! Allround praise by the press, denial by team it was a team order, no action by the FIA.

Hockenheim 2010: Red team: Driver B, driver A is faster than you! Allround condemnation by the press even when the team admitted it was a team order, and a $100.000 fine from the FIA.

Conclusion: attitude shift has to do with biased opinions.


Unfortunately as you very well know the situations were totally different, in 2008, they was on a different fuel strategy and driver A had beign dropped back due to a badly timed pitstop.
Also driver B was running 4th, when driver A, passed B, driver A carried on and actually won, while driver B continued to trundle around and had no effect on those running in front of him.

If they had driver B hold back Driver A, then the end result would have being, 5th and 4th, instead of the 1st and 5th it actual was*

I can't recall the actual finishing positions, but it really doesn't matter, as its a weak pointless argument the poster has tried to make.

In 2010, the positions were Driver B, position 1, Driver A, position 2.

Edited by study, 31 March 2013 - 16:41.


#36 gm914

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 16:41

I believe people still like no TO. But the OP must understand that what happened in Malaysia isn't just about Vettel ignoring the TO but more about Vettel having an unfair advantage by ignoring TO and that was definitely not racing.

Basically TO to hold position like RBR did at Malaysia ,for me, was acceptable because it didn't give an unfair advantage to either drivers. Vettel should try to overtake Webber before the last stop. If it was the team fault that Vettel ended up behind Webber, he should take it out to the team and not compromise his team mate.
The Merc one was more unacceptable because the driver behind obviously have something more thus even if they need to use TO, it would be to allow Rosberg to pass Hamilton.

In the end, I would prefer no TO. But it's unrealistic to prevent any TO considering the fact that this is a combination of team sport and individual sport. If a team employ TO, I expect that it is for the interest of the team alone without giving a major advantage to their drivers. There is an exception though... if one of the driver is fighting for WDC and the other one isn't, then TO to give an advantage to their no.1 is kinda okay (maybe not really okay, but understandable).

Well said.

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#37 fabr68

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 16:52

I'm not sure if I'm alone in this, but I am very surprised by the tone of the rhetoric I am seeing in the aftermath of the Malaysia team orders row. As recently as 2010, team orders were illegal, and were sneered at as the sort of "illegal unsporting behaviour practised only by those naughty Machiavellian boys at Ferrari" and would of course never be undertaken by any right-thinking race team. Now, only a few years into the era of legalisation, obedience to team orders has become the very highest sacred duty of the race driver. Why the attitude shift? Is it real, or just something stirred up by the press?


It is all in the eye of the beholder.

When a popular team/driver do it, it is not as discusting as when an unpopular and hated team/driver do it.

People are very angry at Vettel but you know if this was Hamilton disobeying a team order to overtake Alonso and win, the media would have praised it and directed all the heat towards the team and Alonso.

It is a very hypocrite stance but I rather have team orders legal. I prefer everyone do it in the open to dampen the outrage when the hated teams/drivers do it.

#38 seahawk

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 16:58

Well, hold position is also a disadvantage for a driver who saved a set of fast tires for the last stint. It is impossible to say when a TO is fair and when it is not.

Edited by seahawk, 31 March 2013 - 16:59.


#39 undersquare

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 17:00

It's not realistic to hope for no team orders as long as there are teams with two cars.

All you can ask is for it to be open to us fans so we know, like Mercedes, not sneaky like with 'Multi 21' code, and then when it happens for one driver not to take unfair advantage and basically cheat a la Pironi.

In 2010 it had to be sneaky because it was illegal, that's the difference. Even so a 'hold station' deal can be fair if it's agreed at the start of the season and the same for both drivers.

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#40 DKMoto

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 17:13

Its because its Vettel and because theres a 3 weep gap till the next race.

Which means that journalists have to create some controversy so they can continue to make their money with this down time.

Also because its Vettel. If the roles were reversed and MW was the one who ignored TO and got the win then 99% of this forum would be cheering and celebrating about how evil RbR used TO's in the 2nd race of the season to get Vettel points. But when situation is reversed, the same people get all upset and start crying on how dare Vettel not follow the team order and what a bad human he is.



#41 undersquare

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 17:22

Well, hold position is also a disadvantage for a driver who saved a set of fast tires for the last stint. It is impossible to say when a TO is fair and when it is not.


If they have saved a set of new tyres and they didn't know then it's unfair, obviously :confused:

But it's such an old and common policy mostly they do know it's a risk to do that.


#42 sharo

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 17:22

The reason is pretty simple actually. The driver that was disobeying the "bad and unsporting" teamorders (pre Malaysia that is) is by far the most disliked driver around at the moment. There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that if the roles were reversed, Webber would have been hailed as a "true" racer sticking it to evil RB while Vettel would have been called a little whining b*** that was getting preferred treatment.

^^This

Thread now may be closed. :)

#43 yoyogetfunky

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 17:27

The reason is pretty simple actually. The driver that was disobeying the "bad and unsporting" teamorders (pre Malaysia that is) is by far the most disliked driver around at the moment.


By the press that is.

I think most fans stood up for Vettel, especially in light of remarks made by Webber post Silverstone 2011.

#44 bourbon

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 17:47

Team orders will always be apart of the sport.

Fan/press attitude does sway and it has nothing to do with the team order itself.

Otherwise you would have had similar outrage after Silverstone 2011 and Malaysia 2013; "hold station" was the order and on both occassions they were not followed by the rear driver. The fan/press reaction to the order being given in Silverstone was outrage and against RBR. In Malaysia, the reaction was understanding and support for RBR.

On both occassions, the team had a rationale beyond teammate position (2011 - Busted wheel nut; 2013 - Iffy tyres) - but as we saw, the cars held up under the strain in each case.

Meanwhile, press/fan/team outrage is meaningless to a driver on a mission. So whatever...

Edited by bourbon, 31 March 2013 - 17:47.


#45 tifosi

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 17:51

It's pretty simple really;

Team Order given by Ferrari is disgusting and totally cheapens the sport.

Team Order given by any other team dating back to the 1920s, a stunning example of great teamwork and a brilliant tactic!

#46 Fatgadget

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 17:55

Team order "let x pass" has always caused more drama than order "hold position".

Precisely!...."Fernando is faster than you!" :rolleyes: Holding station and turning down the wick at race end is perfectly reasonable.


#47 Watkins74

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 18:38

It's pretty simple really;

Team Order given by Ferrari is disgusting and totally cheapens the sport.

Team Order given by any other team dating back to the 1920s, a stunning example of great teamwork and a brilliant tactic!

:up: Exactly

When Grosjean was told last year "Kimi is faster than you" no one cared.

#48 study

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 18:39

No one cares unless it is ferrari?

I'm pretty sure I've heard countless arrows being aimed at Enstone and McLaren over the years in regards to team orders.

#49 joshb

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 20:52

Its because its Vettel and because theres a 3 weep gap till the next race.

Which means that journalists have to create some controversy so they can continue to make their money with this down time.

Also because its Vettel. If the roles were reversed and MW was the one who ignored TO and got the win then 99% of this forum would be cheering and celebrating about how evil RbR used TO's in the 2nd race of the season to get Vettel points. But when situation is reversed, the same people get all upset and start crying on how dare Vettel not follow the team order and what a bad human he is.


and @Zil "The reason is pretty simple actually. The driver that was disobeying the "bad and unsporting" teamorders (pre Malaysia that is) is by far the most disliked driver around at the moment. There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that if the roles were reversed, Webber would have been hailed as a "true" racer sticking it to evil RB while Vettel would have been called a little whining b*** that was getting preferred treatment"


Spot on both of you, I've been saying it since last Sunday

#50 yoyogetfunky

yoyogetfunky
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Posted 31 March 2013 - 20:58

and @Zil "The reason is pretty simple actually. The driver that was disobeying the "bad and unsporting" teamorders (pre Malaysia that is) is by far the most disliked driver around at the moment. There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that if the roles were reversed, Webber would have been hailed as a "true" racer sticking it to evil RB while Vettel would have been called a little whining b*** that was getting preferred treatment"


Spot on both of you, I've been saying it since last Sunday


And he wouldv been called 'fingerboy'. They love to call him fingerboy. Dont leave that out ;)