77 replies to this topic

[Seanspeed]

For real. Caterham hire two mediocre pay drivers and they're gonna pay for it.

Marussia getting money.

Good on em. Dont believe in karma, but Caterham getting rid of two proper drivers will cost them.

[CrucialXtreme]

For real. Caterham hire two mediocre pay drivers and they're gonna pay for it.

Marussia getting money.

Good on em. Dont believe in karma, but Caterham getting rid of two proper drivers will cost them.

Agreed. Jules is going to beat the wheels off the Caterham's this year.

[Les]

You could argue its only a coincidence that Marrussia have a 'proper' driver since Razia couldn't afford to pay for his ride. That aside Bianchi has had a couple of great drives (also surprised he is related to 60s driver Lucien Bianchi, thought they were just namesakes). That said Ted's post Melbourne indicate he's nervous so lets see how the next few races go.

[BoschKurve]

I haven't really paid attention to the backmarkers the past few seasons because I didn't find anything interesting about them. With Jules Bianchi, that's completely changed. This guy is stunning already, and is making Chilton, Van Der Garde, and Pic look like the amateur hour. It's not even close with how much better he is as a driver than the other three.

I couldn't help but wonder what might have been had Force India gone with Sutil and Bianchi.

But I do like how he is starting off with Marussia....I really think he is going to be something special in the years to come, and he's the first talent to come along in awhile that's really opened my eyes. I see nothing but positives for him driving in F1 right now, and I hope it stays that way.

[Kingshark]

We all know that Max Chilton is going to do all the work.

On a more serious note, I have been positively surprised by Bianchi. I didn't think much of him as being anything but a crash kid after his two years in GP2, but he's been very impressive so far.

Either that, or his mediocre teammate and underrated car have given us a false impression.

I think that it's a combination of both. Marrusia have a decent car, and Jules is doing a fine job.

[turssi]

Very impressive so far! Pic really needs to up his game in. Front of this new adversary.

Chilton, van der Garde, Razzia are gone.

[BigCHrome]

Caterham is supposed to really improve their car for Barcelona so let's wait until then.

[Les]

Caterham is supposed to really improve their car for Barcelona so let's wait until then.

Yeah Tony Fernandes said...

[DanardiF1]

I get the feeling already that like Kamui Kobayashi, Bianchi is a driver who was more held back by spec-equipment in junior levels than helped. We saw that Koba's even more mediocre (compared to Bianchi, who despite being a bit of a serial crasher had a better record) GP2 performances had no comparison to his almost fully-formed F1 debut and career.

The gap in engineering levels and support afforded to drivers of even the smaller F1 teams compared to the GP2 outfits must be a lot bigger than we think when drivers can so obviously be hamstrung by equipment that is intended to be neutral for all.

Edited by DanardiF1, 01 April 2013 - 04:17.

[Wingcommander]

For real. Caterham hire two mediocre pay drivers and they're gonna pay for it.

Marussia getting money.

Good on em. Dont believe in karma, but Caterham getting rid of two proper drivers will cost them.

Marussia won't get any money until Bernie stops pushing them out of the sport.

[Seanspeed]

Marussia won't get any money until Bernie stops pushing them out of the sport.

10th place in the constructors guarantees them money.

[teejay]

He has been fantastic.

[muramasa]

what's interesting is that those who were quick and busy claiming drivers like Kobayashi and Perez was nothing special and dont deserve good seats coz their teammates were blah blah hence cannot get comparison dont apply the same rule to drivers like Bianchi (whose teammate has no prior F1 experience and was expected to be rather crap in the first place) and Hulk (who was mediocre at best in his debut season even considering as Rubens teammate, and whose teammate at FI was di Resta who was beaten by or at best on par with Sutil who then was well beaten by Fisi) and now jumping on Bianchi bandwagon almost thoughtlessly, or at least cannot be seen to be dismissing him or saying it's too early to judge.

Funny indeed.

[seahawk]

10th place will be decided by a freak race.

[Wingcommander]

10th place in the constructors guarantees them money.

No it doesn't. They havent been offered the concorde agreement so they might aswell win the WCC and go home without any prize money. To me it is quite clear that Bernie wants them out.

Edited by Wingcommander, 01 April 2013 - 07:30.

[Kelateboy]

10th place in the constructors guarantees them money.

The difference in prize money between 10th and 11th is humongous. According to a few reports that I read, the team finishing 10th will get $35mil, while the one finishing 11th and 12th (in 2012) will get only $10mil.

[chrisblades85]

Caterham is supposed to really improve their car for Barcelona so let's wait until then.

They've been saying that for 3 years....

[santori]

He's been excellent; just what I was hoping for from watching him in F3.

I think you're a little harsh on Charles Pic and (possibly) Giedo van der Garde. Pic was very good last year and wouldn't have been so far behind Bianchi in Malaysia if not for problems which weren't his fault. With Van der Garde we haven't yet seen enough (I'm guessing that the Caterham isn't quite as good as the Marussia at the moment)

[Nemo1965]

He's been excellent; just what I was hoping for from watching him in F3.

I think you're a little harsh on Charles Pic and (possibly) Giedo van der Garde. Pic was very good last year and wouldn't have been so far behind Bianchi in Malaysia if not for problems which weren't his fault. With Van der Garde we haven't yet seen enough (I'm guessing that the Caterham isn't quite as good as the Marussia at the moment)

Plus 1. I think that my compatriot Van der Garde is not good enough for F1... but there is no way at the moment that a fair comparison between Bianchi and the Caterham drivers is possible. First of all: it is very early in the season. Two: they are not driving the same cars... We don't know how good the Marussia is.

Other point of attention: If the Marussia is a little bit better than the Caterham, and a little bit worse than the Williams, it helps Bianchi to shine. He can drive in clear air, not attacked at the front, nor distracted at the front. We have to wait how good he is when he is dealling with the circumstances that made Schumacher look like a noobie in his second career: cars that become highly unstable when you approach them from the back, cars that overtake you like the wind from the back. Bianchi's record in GP2 when racing in the pack, surrounded by equal fast cars, was not stellar. If not to say: terrible.

[ensign14]

The thread title unconsciously points out a fundamental flaw with the constructors' title. A smaller team is better off with one megadriver and a bill payer than with two very decent drivers. Because the chances are that the points/higher places accumulated by the better driver will be better than those accumulated by the two good ones.

Which essentially means that Marussia could be rewarded more for being half a team than Caterham for being a complete team.

I've already shown the solution - award constructor points based on where the second driver comes. So if a team wins all the races but the second driver is so overlooked that they barely score a point - showing that they're a one man band - then the constructors' champs are likely to be the team that gets both its drivers high up at the end.

That's an unlikely scenario these days (although it happened in 1972), but at the lower end it's magnified.

[jjcale]

Sorry to burst your bubble guys ... but its not JB who is great, it is his team mate who is poor.

The Marussia is a fundamentally better and faster car than the Caterham at the moment. You guys seem to think that the form book from the past two or so years still applies... but things have moved on the Caterham is the worst car this year. Any competent driver in a Marrussia should be beating the Caterhams (...mechanical incidents and accidents not taken into consideration).

The Williams has also been poor... but I dont have a view on how much of a gap there is between it and the Marussia.

Edit: I should also add that I am not saying that JB is not a good prospect for the future, I am only saying that he is doing what any competent driver sould be doing ATM, so this is not evidence of how fantastic he is (or is not) - and therefore the only conclusion that we can safely draw is that his team mate is really poor.... but to understand this point you have understand how bad the Caterham is... and I dont think many people do.

Edited by jjcale, 01 April 2013 - 10:35.

[Alx09]

Sorry to burst your bubble guys ... but its not JB who is great, it is his team mate who is poor.

I think it's a mix of both.

[jjcale]

I think it's a mix of both.

Well what is your view on the cars? .... everybody is all focused on the drivers... mistakenly so IMO

[WBarnato]

Whilst I have been impressed with Jules Bianchi and its seems that Caterham may have made a mistake, surely the greater mistake was letting Timo Glock go.

It would be interesting to see how much quicker Timo Glock would have been in the MR02. Could he be challenging the Williams and Toro-Rosso rather than beating the Caterham?

Anyway after two races its a bit premature to call the race over. It only takes one freak result to completely change the battle for 10th.

[noikeee]

I've always thought Bianchi would do well in F1, even after the not-fully-convincing last 3 seasons in GP2 and WSR, and think he's been highly impressive. However I also think the best thing that's ever happened to him is Max Chilton...

Therefore it's really hard to gauge his performance, given Chilton's striking lack of experience and low reputation (I was going to say "lack of talent" but didn't want to be rude - he may be a very rich kid that hasn't really done enough to deserve a F1 ride but it's still not fair to discard him after 2 races). It reminds me of a decade ago when we had this Fernando Alonso kid beating Tarso Marques in a Minardi by calendar years. Or the following year Mark Webber driving circles around Alex Yoong. Both turned out to be good, I think Bianchi will be too, but how good? I suspect he's more Webber-level than Alonso-level, but who knows at this stage...

He's also been slightly flattered by a considerable jump in performance by Marussia, and the fact both teams start this season with a big reset button having changed their driving lineups completely. It may be that Caterham are lost in setups with little reference points from last year. Sure the same applies to Marussia, and it's partially the driver's job, but who knows whether that car is easier to set up or not. It's nevertheless remarkable that Bianchi is on the pace immediately, Chilton had quite a few more days of testing...

Overall grade so far: B. Looking very promising, but needs to be evaluated better in different conditions.

[bub]

Pity we don't have Glock as a reference.

[BRG]

I don't get the enthusiasm for Bianchi. Took two years to win F3 Euroseries despite being at ART, two seasons fo GP2 but only 3rd place, then dropped down to Renault 3.5 and couldn't win that either.

Out of F1 at the end of the year, I reckon, unless he finds some cash to buy a seat.

[olliek88]

I don't get the enthusiasm for Bianchi. Took two years to win F3 Euroseries despite being at ART, two seasons fo GP2 but only 3rd place, then dropped down to Renault 3.5 and couldn't win that either.

Out of F1 at the end of the year, I reckon, unless he finds some cash to buy a seat.

No one ever wins the F3 Euroseries in their first year, hell, even Vettel could only manage 2nd in his second F3 year, so what does that say! The reason why Jules missed out on the other titles wasn't because he wasn't fast, its because he was forever giving points away with needless crashes, the kid is bloody fast.

[CrucialXtreme]

I don't get the enthusiasm for Bianchi. Took two years to win F3 Euroseries despite being at ART, two seasons fo GP2 but only 3rd place, then dropped down to Renault 3.5 and couldn't win that either.

Out of F1 at the end of the year, I reckon, unless he finds some cash to buy a seat.

Because he has out-performed not only his teammate but also handily beat the Caterham's in both GP's in a car/team that was last in 2012 and largely unchanged for 2013.

[charly0418]

As someone said before, what they've done means nothing. 10th place will again be defined by a crazy race like last year in Brazil.

[Collective]

Pity we don't have Glock as a reference.

Exactly.

[Jimisgod]

I don't get the enthusiasm for Bianchi. Took two years to win F3 Euroseries despite being at ART, two seasons fo GP2 but only 3rd place, then dropped down to Renault 3.5 and couldn't win that either.

Out of F1 at the end of the year, I reckon, unless he finds some cash to buy a seat.

Again with this? No one cares what you did outside F1, and may GP2 winners have gone on to fail dismally, if Bianchi maintains his current pace the only way is up: Force India or Sauber are most likely, other teams are an outside possibility.

[Collective]

Because he has out-performed not only his teammate but also handily beat the Caterham's in both GP's in a car/team that was last in 2012 and largely unchanged for 2013.

They were already quite close to the Caterhams without KERS. Now they have it. I think the Marussia is fundamentally a better car than the Caterham now that they have the KERS on board. I really, reallly wish Glock was still around to have a proper measuring stick. Chilton is hopeless, so we are in the dark with JB.

Also, take into account that he's got good F1 mileage between Ferrari and Force India prior to his debut.

[Bloggsworth]

Of course he will...

[CrucialXtreme]

They were already quite close to the Caterhams without KERS. Now they have it. I think the Marussia is fundamentally a better car than the Caterham now that they have the KERS on board. I really, reallly wish Glock was still around to have a proper measuring stick. Chilton is hopeless, so we are in the dark with JB.

Also, take into account that he's got good F1 mileage between Ferrari and Force India prior to his debut.

Yes I agree. I think it will be huge for Marussia if they(JB) can get them into 10th. Still interesting story at the back of the grid IMO.

[noikeee]

I don't get the enthusiasm for Bianchi. Took two years to win F3 Euroseries despite being at ART, two seasons fo GP2 but only 3rd place, then dropped down to Renault 3.5 and couldn't win that either.

Out of F1 at the end of the year, I reckon, unless he finds some cash to buy a seat.

Sarcasm?

1. Since when is that even a bad record in the feeder series? Sure it's not immaculate like Hamilton's or Hulkenberg's, but still F3 champ, title-challenger in both GP2 and WSR doesn't necessarily indicate a poor driver. It's best if you win everything but you don't need to win everything to come good in F1.

2. Have you not followed the last 2 F1 races? He beat the other backmarkers by a long long way. He's on Ferrari's ranks. There's not any indication he'll drop out of F1 soon, if anything his career is gaining momentum.

Edited by noikeee, 01 April 2013 - 15:07.

[Viryfan]

I think that we need to raise up some points.

In 2009 when he integrates the FDA, Bianchi's aim was to get in F1 as quickly as possible with a limited budget so he had to win title from scratch in his 4th year in Motor Racing.

So it was an hard task when you compare to Hamilton (he was in 6th year in motor racing when he won his gp2 crown, Hulkkenberg was in his 5th year plus A1Gp).

You must consider that, he went too fast , too soon. Too much pressure.

By the end of 2011 he ran an impressive run of 10 points finishes in GP2, he found some kind of consistency out there.

In 2012 he trashed Korjus, i don't think that the Tech1 was that good in WSR, at it was not better compared that the second generation of FR3.5 car for the team. And when we see the current pre season test, Tech1 is not that when you compare to ISR or Fortec.

[HaydenFan]

His two years in GP2 show how difficult the series is. Some drivers where really good in the feature race, others reaped the benefits in the sprints. Bianchi was good in both. The champions in GP2 score wins, but not podiums. In 2010, Maldonado had 6 wins and 8 podiums. That means if he didn't win, he didn't bring in great results. 2011, Grosjean had 5 wins with 10 podiums. Grosjean just dominated that season though. But Bianchi had in 2010, 4 podiums and no win. Solid season seeing that he statistically had a much better season that the 2010 champ. In 2011, he had 1 win with 6 total podiums. Again, a very consistent season compared to even the second place Filippi. But he didn't compete for the title due to the inability (for some reason or another) to make it to the top step of the podium.

And last season in FR3.5, he had the championship if not for some Schumacher-esch moves by Frijns.

But moving on from the past into F1 2013, Bianchi is possible the best driver to drive for the new teams in F1.

Edited by HaydenFan, 01 April 2013 - 15:21.

[CrucialXtreme]

Sarcasm?

1. Since when is that even a bad record in the feeder series? Sure it's not immaculate like Hamilton's or Hulkenberg's, but still F3 champ, title-challenger in both GP2 and WSR doesn't necessarily indicate a poor driver. It's best if you win everything but you don't need to win everything to come good in F1.

2. Have you not followed the last 2 F1 races? He beat the other backmarkers by a long long way. He's on Ferrari's ranks. There's not any indication he'll drop out of F1 soon, if anything his career is gaining momentum.

+1

Seat time in the Force India last year helps & being part of the FDA helps as well. Bianchi has talent.

[charly0418]

His two years in GP2 show how difficult the series is. Some drivers where really good in the feature race, others reaped the benefits in the sprints. Bianchi was good in both. The champions in GP2 score wins, but not podiums. In 2010, Maldonado had 6 wins and 8 podiums. That means if he didn't win, he didn't bring in great results. 2011, Grosjean had 5 wins with 10 podiums. Grosjean just dominated that season though. But Bianchi had in 2010, 4 podiums and no win. Solid season seeing that he statistically had a much better season that the 2010 champ. In 2011, he had 1 win with 6 total podiums. Again, a very consistent season compared to even the second place Filippi. But he didn't compete for the title due to the inability (for some reason or another) to make it to the top step of the podium.

And last season in FR3.5, he had the championship if not for some Schumacher-esch moves by Frijns.

But moving on from the past into F1 2013, Bianchi is possible the best driver to drive for the new teams in F1.

He got beaten by a very green Firjns, yes he made a very Shumacher like move on the last race, but still, getting beaten by Frijns who barely has any experience in Motorsport compared to Bianchi isnt good. And it wasnt only Frijns, Antonio Felix da Costa would have beaten both and he's even younger.

[Viryfan]

He got beaten by a very green Firjns, yes he made a very Shumacher like move on the last race, but still, getting beaten by Frijns who barely has any experience in Motorsport compared to Bianchi isnt good. And it wasnt only Frijns, Antonio Felix da Costa would have beaten both and he's even younger.

Just look to Fortec car's performance.

Stoffel Vandoorne is also very fast, and Oli Webb who was nowhere near the top in 2011.

Teams are different.

If one team has an edge over the other it gives a completely false perception of driver.

[noikeee]

No doubt Frijns and Felix da Costa looked better in terms of performance compared to experience last year, still doesn't mean Bianchi isn't any good, or even will be a worse F1 driver than them - though logic would dictate they come from a more promising starting point.

I suspect all 3 will be pretty good F1 drivers, possibly one of them rising to become a top star. Frijns has the most spectacular CV, 3 highly competitive titles in 4 years in cars is pretty amazing, he seems to have hit an unfortunate wall with no seat for this year though and I suspect that may severely restrict his development.

[ZuTiMa]

I haven't really paid attention to the backmarkers the past few seasons because I didn't find anything interesting about them. With Jules Bianchi, that's completely changed. This guy is stunning already, and is making Chilton, Van Der Garde, and Pic look like the amateur hour. It's not even close with how much better he is as a driver than the other three.

I couldn't help but wonder what might have been had Force India gone with Sutil and Bianchi.

But I do like how he is starting off with Marussia....I really think he is going to be something special in the years to come, and he's the first talent to come along in awhile that's really opened my eyes. I see nothing but positives for him driving in F1 right now, and I hope it stays that way.

Agree

Flashbacks of Alonso at Minardi!

[PorcupineTroy]

what's interesting is that those who were quick and busy claiming drivers like Kobayashi and Perez was nothing special and dont deserve good seats coz their teammates were blah blah hence cannot get comparison dont apply the same rule to drivers like Bianchi (whose teammate has no prior F1 experience and was expected to be rather crap in the first place) and Hulk (who was mediocre at best in his debut season even considering as Rubens teammate, and whose teammate at FI was di Resta who was beaten by or at best on par with Sutil who then was well beaten by Fisi)

... who was beaten by Alonso at Renault, who was matched by Trulli in the first half of 2004, who was beaten by Frentzen at Jordan, etc. Drivers change, so I would be taking teammate comparisons from a few years back with a grain of salt. Still, as a Binachi fan, I agree that he may be flattered by Chilton doing poorly (although Max himself managed to win a couple races in GP2 last year, so it's not like he's complete garbage).

[Kyo]

Not really hard to shine when you are racing Chilton, Pic and Van der Garde.

Looking at his junior record that were good but not extraordinary and who he is facing right now I will wait till he is racing better drivers in F1 to come to a conclusion on how good he is.

[Seanspeed]

Well what is your view on the cars? .... everybody is all focused on the drivers... mistakenly so IMO

Chilton is a bit better than a lot of people think, too. A lot of people treat him as if he's some trash driver, but he's ok. Nothing special, no, but by 2012, he was a regular front-runner in GP2.

I dont think its 'clear' that the Marussia is such a better car. Maybe it is, we'll see, but from what I've seen so far, I wouldn't think there's that big a difference. Chilton has finished behind a Caterham both races so far in straight fights, so its not unreasonable to think that if Marussia had opted for a lesser paydriver, their chances of beating Caterham might not be that great.

I'm not jumping on the Bianchi bandwagon or saying he's going to be a world champion in the future or anything. I've been critical of him in the past and there's a long way to go still, but if he keeps this up, it will have been a very good decision on Marussia's part.

And yes, there's a chance some freak race will decide the winning constructor, but I think Marussia at the moment have the best shot with Bianchi at the helm.

Edited by Seanspeed, 01 April 2013 - 17:22.

[Bleu]

10th place in WCC is also a lot about luck. Bianchi can well drive a great race and finish just five seconds behind Toro Rosso in a normal race, taking 16th place. Then in a race with lots off attrition, van der Garde is the only one of Caterham/Marussia drivers who finishes and takes 12th place.

Here are the standings of back-end drivers of last three years, and I don't think you can really say these tell about their performances. Glock beaten by di Grassi and d'Ambrosio, Karthikeyan won de la Rosa and so on. Kovalainen's best season of the three performance-wise was definately 2011. Still he was only 2nd behind his team-mate while beating him a year earlier.

2010
1. Kovalainen
2. Trulli
3. Chandhok
4. Senna
5. di Grassi
6. Glock
7. Yamamoto
8. Klien

2011

1. Trulli
2. Kovalainen
3. Liuzzi
4. d'Ambrosio
5. Glock
6. Karthikeyan
7. Ricciardo
8. Chandhok

2012
1. Petrov
2. Glock
3. Pic
4. Kovalainen
5. Karthikeyan
6. de la Rosa

[One]

For real. Caterham hire two mediocre pay drivers and they're gonna pay for it.

Marussia getting money.

Good on em. Dont believe in karma, but Caterham getting rid of two proper drivers will cost them.

I predicted this, even though I voted for Caterham during two Lotus names, the consequence was obvious and the team was just not up to the job.

[One]

BTW, quite obviously even Bianchi may not have performed as was if the car was not up to. I mean...

Edited by One, 02 April 2013 - 11:09.

[tormave]

Pic made a blunder of the century moving "up" to Caterham from Marussia. This year Bianchi may make some sort of name for himself, but he'll face the same fate as Kovalainen unless he can move up to a points scoring team. This year he'll do well in the Marussia, but it'll be difficult to say whether it's down to him or Pat Symonds with Chilton clearly being there only to pay the bills. Next year with Marussia will be another crap shoot with a new car. Caterhams were really notoriouslg unreliable last year and most of the upgrades they managed to bolt on only made the car slower. Pic and GvdG are wasting a wad of cash only to look slower than their abilities this year.