107 replies to this topic

[readonly]

If some rich guy wanted to create a new racing series that competes with F1 for the title of pinnacle of motorsports, what would you recommend to do first ? I think there are many obstacles to beat like: TV rights, safety rules, investors, etc. Lets try and make a good compilation of thoughts that could eventually encourage the compilation of all the needed resources to make this a reality. A1gp is a good example of how a very interesting proposal has been killed maybe by some mistakes that could be avoided.

What do you think ?

[undersquare]

OMG if only they would.

They need stars. And I don't mean Rob Huff .

And really, really good TV coverage.

[tjkoyen]

The best drivers, the best and most exotic and interesting circuits, pure raw racing, very fast and technologically advanced cars...

You need to create a series the drivers want to race in and then the fans will follow the drivers.

[Fulcrum]

- lot of money
- Ferrari
- Bernie Ecclestone

[smitten]

What do you think ?

I think you should look to A1Gp for examples of what not to do, and to see that it is not trivially easy.

Most sport grows organically over a number of years because people like to compete. "Inventing" a formula to compete with F1 because you want a share of the riches is almost certainly doomed to failure.

Edited by smitten, 02 April 2013 - 14:55.

[readonly]

I agree with you both, totally ( undersquare and tjkoyen ).

Getting the star drivers there might be difficult but it could be done by hiring a few of them.
How can really good TV coverage be guarranteed ?
What circuits would be good ?
Very fast and technologically advanced cars can only be achieved with technological freedom, I think.

Edited by readonly, 02 April 2013 - 14:59.

[readonly]

- lot of money
- Ferrari
- Bernie Ecclestone

Money, of course. Ferrari, likely. but Bernie? the whole point is to get rid of him ...

[readonly]

I think you should look to A1Gp for examples of what not to do, and to see that it is not trivially easy.

Most sport grows organically over a number of years. "Inventing" a formula to compete with F1 because you want a share of the riches is almost certainly doomed to failure.

I would like to know what really happened to A1gp. Do you know ? I know this is a dream and that it would take time. The chance we have to have it is the total misdirection of current F1 that so many fans hate. Pointing in the right direction can either force F1 to change or make some other series evolve to overtake F1. Don't you think so ?

[Ravenak]

If some rich guy wanted to create a new racing series that competes with F1 for the title of pinnacle of motorsports, what would you recommend to do first ? I think there are many obstacles to beat like: TV rights, safety rules, investors, etc. Lets try and make a good compilation of thoughts that could eventually encourage the compilation of all the needed resources to make this a reality. A1gp is a good example of how a very interesting proposal has been killed maybe by some mistakes that could be avoided.

What do you think ?

Delegate the workload to people who know their **** in motorsports, as many as needed.

Inject as much money as they ask for. Do nothing and wait.

[undersquare]

I would like to know what really happened to A1gp. Do you know ? I know this is a dream and that it would take time. The chance we have to have it is the total misdirection of current F1 that so many fans hate. Pointing in the right direction can either force F1 to change or make some other series evolve to overtake F1. Don't you think so ?

Well they sold it to Sky. Fatal.

[Sakae]

- lot of money
- Ferrari
- Bernie Ecclestone

Geeez anyone but BE. They do need a good business plan, and good lawyers to avoid collision with F1. I dream about new GP series for some time, that is free of bankers and accountants at the helm. NFL is a good example how a sport club could be run.

[One]

good excuses to race against each other! simple but obviously extremely vague in many series therefore remain as a feeder...

[smitten]

The chance we have to have it is the total misdirection of current F1 that so many fans hate.

Nobody cared about A1 Gp in the same way that nobody cares about the "Race of Champions". They are all marketing and no substance.

As for fans "hating" F1... I dislike certain aspect of the sport, but it has grown into it over a number of years and it will continue to evolve. For everybody who hates the chocolate tyres there is one who loves them.

F1 is the only international motor-racing series that the man in the street has heard of. Some may mention "rallying" but that is the same as mentioning "racing". You can't invent a series that appeals to the septics because they don't understand anything that isn't an oval driven in trucks by a man called Wayne. The rest of the world is just not interested in circuit racing over and above F1. Stop the average F1 "fan" in the street and they wouldn't even be able to tell you the name of the primary feeder series.

It is a losing battle to try and start a new "F1", and anybody who tries has more money than sense.

[One]

series for excitement fails...

[Ravenak]

series for excitement fails...

Does Nascar fail?

[One]

Does Nascar fail?

NASCAR got great excuses to race.

[HaydenFan]

You'd have to create a formula in which is essentially CART in terms of the cars. I think teams creating their own cars raise costs. Teams building own engines (Ferrari, Mercedes) increases costs. Put those in the hands of outside companies.

Getting venues will be difficult though. For the performance you want in the cars, how many places would be safe to race on that are actually interesting? If you're going at the major circuits not under the F1 banner leave you with many great circuits, but how many would be safe for a car with performance similar to F1 in their current form? Not many outside of Asia.

Would the FIA be involved? Or at what level? Because they won't allow you to come close to being a true competitor of Formula One (which is where IndyCar is at now).

Outside of becoming engine suppliers, keep with the trend in F1 now, and try to be a place where the automakers don't want to be as a team. The automakers see the sport as a business and when things get difficult (like what occurred to F1 in 2008-2009) you don't want big money groups cutting and running taking cars off the grid.

You don't need budget caps if you set up the sport correctly. Introduce targets for the suppliers for parts and pieces to charge to keep costs down.

What is going to attract teams?

[GSiebert]

They'd need something radicaly different from F1.
Today F1 is still trying to find a balance between the old F1 (the sport, the technology) and the new (the show, and the budget and technology limits implied) with stupid rules. But it remains the main series in motorsport, and it's too big now for only a slightly different series to emerge and take its place.

I wish there was a super high tech series (that would probably look like something like this )

[One]

both of them fails, imho.

Edited by One, 02 April 2013 - 15:45.

[RealRacing]

For me, good racing. If I found a series with better on-track racing than F1 (in similar type of cars), I´d switch in a second.

Now, if you are asking how to compete with F1:

-What I said above
-Good coverage and marketing
-Attack the weaknesses of F1
-Try to attract at least some top drivers and teams
-Create a level playing field

[Rob]

We need a new Formula 5000. Big engines, lots of horsepower and ten times the fun.

[Nemo1965]

Here is an idea I've been toying with for about a decade: digital sponsorship on the cars. With which I mean: instead of having fixed sponsors for every team, you could use digital imagery on television to show changing advertisements on the cars. The more money you pay, the longer your advert is shown on the car, the more money you pay the better the position the car has you sponsor.

If you did this, teams themselves do not have to pursue sponsors, the organisers of the series do. And even small sponsors can have airtime too.

Lets face it, the major problem of a racing series is funding. Why would a Dutch company, for instance, pay 5 million euro's to have a small banner on Guido van der Garde's car all year, while not all the races are broadcasted in the Netherlands? With the digital sponsoring on cars, you could pay, say, 1.000.000 million euro's for several minutes of airplay during the grand prix you want.

The large sponsors would roughly be the same and sponsor roughly the same teams, you get a lot more of smaller sponsors who get more bang for their bucks.

The other advantage of this idea: the cars can have any shape you want, for example: you can have Formula 1 cars without rear wings which would enhance the overtaking. Why? Because at this moment the most important place for the sponsors is the rear wing...

An uneasy watching experience? Not all. Recently I watched a documentary about Egypt, and now and then the walking around presenter was followed by digital text to enhance his story. The technique has advanced so much you could 'paint' the cars digitally with very good, quiet effect.

[Ravenak]

Here is an idea I've been toying with for about a decade: digital sponsorship on the cars. With which I mean: instead of having fixed sponsors for every team, you could use digital imagery on television to show changing advertisements on the cars. The more money you pay, the longer your advert is shown on the car, the more money you pay the better the position the car has you sponsor.

If you did this, teams themselves do not have to pursue sponsors, the organisers of the series do. And even small sponsors can have airtime too.

Lets face it, the major problem of a racing series is funding. Why would a Dutch company, for instance, pay 5 million euro's to have a small banner on Guido van der Garde's car all year, while not all the races are broadcasted in the Netherlands? With the digital sponsoring on cars, you could pay, say, 1.000.000 million euro's for several minutes of airplay during the grand prix you want.

The large sponsors would roughly be the same and sponsor roughly the same teams, you get a lot more of smaller sponsors who get more bang for their bucks.

The other advantage of this idea: the cars can have any shape you want, for example: you can have Formula 1 cars without rear wings which would enhance the overtaking. Why? Because at this moment the most important place for the sponsors is the rear wing...

An uneasy watching experience? Not all. Recently I watched a documentary about Egypt, and now and then the walking around presenter was followed by digital text to enhance his story. The technique has advanced so much you could 'paint' the cars digitally with very good, quiet effect.

[Rob]

Lets face it, the major problem of a racing series is funding.

With a new series, the commercial rights will be with the governing body so the TV money can be allocated a bit more sensibly.

[FerrariV12]

I think you should look to A1Gp for examples of what not to do, and to see that it is not trivially easy.

Most sport grows organically over a number of years because people like to compete. "Inventing" a formula to compete with F1 because you want a share of the riches is almost certainly doomed to failure.

Agree with this - F1, while very much overly standardised these days, was not planned from the ground up, but can trace its lineage from the first independent Grand Prix races, to the inception of the World Championship a few decades later, to the pre-packaged commercial entity formed from it a few decades later still.

If I was to undertake this pipe-dream myself, I'd start off small, running events on an amateur basis with a fairly open rulebook and entry procedure (and probably fairly low car counts to start with), and see what developed out of that. If nothing at all, then the end result would still be the same as an A1GP-style fanfare-followed-by-inevitable-collapse.

But if you really do have to go with an all-new series aiming to hit the ground running then you need a USP, and "Hey everybody!!! Look at us! All the cars are the same so driver ability REALLY counts here!" just doesn't cut it when 99% of racing series are doing the same thing. Which is probably why Formula E, regardless of the hairdryer/power drill soundtrack, probably has more of a chance of succeeding, providing the FIA don't find a way to mess it up.

Edited by FerrariV12, 02 April 2013 - 16:04.

[Rubens Hakkamacher]

Bernie.

.. and this formula, which allows for old-time mechanical ingenuity and creativity:

RULES/REGULATIONS:

1) For safety reasons, the vehicle must not exceed 210 mph;
2) Enclosed FIA approved driver shell;
3) Anything you can fit in a box 200 cm wide, 95 cm high and 425 cm long.
4) The driver, and only the driver, must control the steering, brakes, gear shifting and ride height.

[sosidge]

What any formula needs, above all else, is a small group of disgruntled internet fans who will give it their dedicated support simply because it isn't F1.

[Rob]

Bernie.

.. and this formula, which allows for old-time mechanical ingenuity and creativity:

RULES/REGULATIONS:

1) For safety reasons, the vehicle must not exceed 210 mph;
2) Enclosed FIA approved driver shell;
3) Anything you can fit in a box 200 cm wide, 95 cm high and 425 cm long.
4) The driver, and only the driver, must control the steering, brakes, gear shifting and ride height.

I'd like to add...

5) The commercial rights can only be leased for a maximum period of 5 years.

...purely as a safety measure. Just in case.

[JeanClaude]

- lot of money
- Ferrari
- Bernie Ecclestone

Yep money and Ferrari otherwise it won't work.
Bernie not perse but yes a new series would benefit by learning from Bernies genius strokes and mistakes.

Anyway it will never happen, FOM, FIA, Ferrari in other words the powers that be will never let another series compete with F1. No probs though as I like F1 as it is and there's plenty of other racing out there too

What any formula needs, above all else, is a small group of disgruntled internet fans who will give it their dedicated support simply because it isn't F1.

lol

JC

[One]

i say this.

f1 = rich men's race
nascar = get away hero's race

so the next one should be pure racing with little money.
this ends up in a virtual race series, to me.

[Sin]

background music like this and flying jet cars....

[garoidb]

Some kind of heritage. Great racing alone will not attract the top drivers and sponsors. Because of the heritage, it means something to be the F1 World Champion, or to win a Grand Prix.

There have been some attempts to achieve this by leveraging off events which have heritage (the Indy 500, the Le Mans 24 hour race) but they have not really succeeded. F1 has a great back story, much of it written when the sport was nothing like it is now (e.g. the 1976 GP season, or the Prost - Senna rivalry). In single seaters, it is pretty much impossible to compete with that starting today.

[SR388]

Money, Manufacturers, and Media exposure.

[senna da silva]

Unlimited formula. The only requirement should be a crash test.
Keep it small to start, something like 5 races for the year, one on each continent.
Hold at least one race on an existing F1 track to illustrate how much faster they are.
Market the hell out of it.

[SR388]

Unlimited formula. The only requirement should be a crash test.
Keep it small to start, something like 5 races for the year, one on each continent.
Hold at least one race on an existing F1 track to illustrate how much faster they are.
Market the hell out of it.

I am not sold on an unlimited Formula. The only reason races back in the early 90s weren't a procession was unreliability and the teething issues of pit crews. If the cars were as reliable as they are today, but Red Bull could dump more money and science into the car, it would be dull as all heck.

[senna da silva]

I am not sold on an unlimited Formula. The only reason races back in the early 90s weren't a procession was unreliability and the teething issues of pit crews. If the cars were as reliable as they are today, but Red Bull could dump more money and science into the car, it would be dull as all heck.

Perhaps, but I believe that people want to see what the fastest car in the world is. The world would sit up and take notice if there were cars racing that exceed 400kmh on straights and go around a track 10 seconds faster than an F1 car.

[ForzaGTR]

Unlimited formula. The only requirement should be a crash test.
Keep it small to start, something like 5 races for the year, one on each continent.
Hold at least one race on an existing F1 track to illustrate how much faster they are.
Market the hell out of it.

Gun turrets...

[ANF]

Money, Manufacturers, and Media exposure.

And some History.

[senna da silva]

Gun turrets...

Lol. People would probably love that ****.

[Gyno]

Been thinking about starting a rival racing series for a while now but dont have the money.

First and most important would be a fixed Budget cap.
With a budget cap of 30-50mil you will get manufactors to join in.

After that it's easy.
Strict safety rules.
Open engine regs, race whatever you got, could be a diesel or gas engine and change it as often as you like.
Proper tires that last for more then 2 laps when pushed hard. And each TEAM deciding what tires they will use before each GP NOT the tire supplier.
NO driver aids. Meaning a steering wheel without any buttons except for radio and drinks button.
Ground force active suspension and what ever else the teams comes up with is allowed.
As long as it passes Strict safety test before each gp.
If any rules are broken the team will be DQ from the race, Unlike F1 that let illegal cars race all the time aslong as they make some changes for the next race.

NO TILKE TRACKS.

Edited by Gyno, 02 April 2013 - 18:21.

[HaydenFan]

I think at this moment and in the foreseeable future the automakers of the world are done supporting as full time teams in single seater racing. When I read manufacturers being mentioned in this thread, what is being said? Do you want the likes of Toyota or Honda or BMW entering, spending way too much and not improving the series? Or is it like what is current in F1, and seen in the past where Renault, Cosworth-Ford, Peugeot, Honda (prior to BAR deal), where they are just engine builders?

I think the big deal should be customer chassis'. You as a team are not allowed to make any alterations to the chassis you buy. And the chassis you buy can be bought by other teams.

But at the end of the day, why start a new series? Do you want to be this series to be the technical pinnacle of motorsport? Do you want to have the best drivers, best teams (from a non-technical aspect), races based on a purely drivers benefit? You need to define why F1 is the pinnacle and that is where creating a series to rival F1 is doomed to struggle. A1GP, Superleague, IndyCar never intended to compete for F1 at the top.

I feel that the only way a rival series would start would be for the current teams in F1 to move into a break-a-way series from F1. Bernie only owns F1 and the things about F1, but the teams are free to move. And you give them the venues, and a car that is reasonable, then you will compete with F1.

Plus, the talk of flying series has been attempted and bring up a whole set of safety, cost, venue issues.

[undersquare]

ed to make any alterations to the chassis you buy. And the chassis you buy can be bought by other teams.

But at the end of the day, why start a new series? Do you want to be this series to be the technical pinnacle of motorsport? Do you want to have the best drivers, best teams (from a non-technical aspect), races based on a purely drivers benefit? You need to define why F1 is the pinnacle and that is where creating a series to rival F1 is doomed to struggle. A1GP, Superleague, IndyCar never intended to compete for F1 at the top.

For me the reason would be to have a SPORT where all the participants compete on a level playing field.

It would have to have a lot of glamour, stars, and be beautifully presented. Free to air, of course.

[readonly]

For me, the pinnacle of motorsports must include...
a) the best possible cars a driver can race,
b) the best possible drivers a car owner can hire.

car owners should invest money in creating the best car because they want to be known as the best car makers.
car owners should hire the best driver because he can be a plus in performance
real drivers should attracted more and earn less if the car is really better.
real drivers should be payed more when the car is not the best.
fans should pay more if the cars and drivers are better.

[Seanspeed]

fans should pay more if the cars and drivers are better.

Announcer at the track:

"Lewis Hamilton breaks the Buddh International lap record folks! We'll be sending around employees to collect $3 from each persWAIT! Vettel has now smashed that record by another 3 tenths! That'll be $6 now."

[Sakae]

I think at this moment and in the foreseeable future the automakers of the world are done supporting as full time teams in single seater racing. When I read manufacturers being mentioned in this thread, what is being said? Do you want the likes of Toyota or Honda or BMW entering, spending way too much and not improving the series? Or is it like what is current in F1, and seen in the past where Renault, Cosworth-Ford, Peugeot, Honda (prior to BAR deal), where they are just engine builders?

I think the big deal should be customer chassis'. You as a team are not allowed to make any alterations to the chassis you buy. And the chassis you buy can be bought by other teams.

But at the end of the day, why start a new series? Do you want to be this series to be the technical pinnacle of motorsport? Do you want to have the best drivers, best teams (from a non-technical aspect), races based on a purely drivers benefit? You need to define why F1 is the pinnacle and that is where creating a series to rival F1 is doomed to struggle. A1GP, Superleague, IndyCar never intended to compete for F1 at the top.

I feel that the only way a rival series would start would be for the current teams in F1 to move into a break-a-way series from F1. Bernie only owns F1 and the things about F1, but the teams are free to move. And you give them the venues, and a car that is reasonable, then you will compete with F1.

Plus, the talk of flying series has been attempted and bring up a whole set of safety, cost, venue issues.

Just a footnote - BMW has done more in F1, and rose through ranks more during their short stay as team owners, than for example Williams's team, and some others you are omitting in your lament. It was rather unfortunate when their business plans changed, but seeing how they performing in road car technology, there is nothing bad you can say about them. Toyota was however a different case. There are some other inaccuracies in you post, but whatever.

[Fastcake]

You won't create a new series to rival F1. No one is going to take the risk of starting from scratch when there's a perfectly good race series that already existing.

Just a footnote - BMW has done more in F1, and rose through ranks more during their short stay as team owners, than for example Williams's team, and some others you are omitting in your lament. It was rather unfortunate when their business plans changed, but seeing how they performing in road car technology, there is nothing bad you can say about them. Toyota was however a different case. There are some other inaccuracies in you post, but whatever.

Yeah just look at BMW's achievements as a team in F1 compared to William's. One win and a half dozen podiums, before making a bad car and giving up. Impressive.

[One]

WRC is the one yet to be perfection-ed.

[pingu666]

lots of money, famous drivers, non spec cars, non spec tyres, classic events, manufacturers,
kidnap hamilton, busch brothers and mr larson and kimi

dont be a made for tv format, they nearly always wither away.

my idea for a series would be 300hp ish, f1 safety level, 2meter width max, with no minium weight, unlimited energy recovery (300hp + whatever you can get via kers, solar panels, whatever)

[Sakae]

You won't create a new series to rival F1. No one is going to take the risk of starting from scratch when there's a perfectly good race series that already existing.

Which one is that?

[MoebiusPT]

Using the path that the makers of the BPR series did in the 90s would be a good choice.

Something that the pre-ITC DTM format was also good, although a bit localized to have a very wide appeal, but even so, some great names were gravitating around that time (Rosberg, Larini, Nanini, Ludwig, Schneider).