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Toyota may return to F1 under Lexus banner


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#51 Reinmuster

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 11:12

I'm always thinking that Toyota's unsuccessful years happen not because the Japanese's philosophy - the Kaizen, but more to their employees who running the team unable to understand their 'Kaizen' method..

Agree with One. I like to see those Japanese running their own team.




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#52 Sakae

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 11:59

I'm always thinking that Toyota's unsuccessful years happen not because the Japanese's philosophy - the Kaizen, but more to their employees who running the team unable to understand their 'Kaizen' method..

Agree with One. I like to see those Japanese running their own team.

Toyota was running a team in Germany under British management. It is difficult to understand today by outsiders, who was actually in charge first time around. First line manager making on spot decisions, managing director, or the steering committee? If my recollection is correct, Japanese managers got involved more hands-on only later on when team was already in a tail spin, but they did not managed to recover before total pull-out.

#53 One

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 12:27

Toyota was running a team in Germany under British management. It is difficult to understand today by outsiders, who was actually in charge first time around. First line manager making on spot decisions, managing director, or the steering committee? If my recollection is correct, Japanese managers got involved more hands-on only later on when team was already in a tail spin, but they did not managed to recover before total pull-out.


Rally legend Ove Anderson was the founder of the squad, I recall. He has got a great trust from Japanese Toyota for the development of the Toyota's motor sport development program as well, I recall if I am correct. I believe this way of giving full trust to the one who performed the most within their previous operation is very Japanese, no matter where the man is coming from. I love this attitude actually. Just that this was no broad casted well enough for anyone to understand what Japanese is about Toyota operation, IMHO.

I remain modest in stating that Toyota should have approached the formula one racing in full Japanese engineering team rather than formulating 'winner' dream team in Europe, only because none will understand where the racing spirits is coming from. It is hard to make difference from a successful business man buying around winning assets and devastate the existing market, well why not, but 'most' do not love such attitude again IMHO...


#54 Sakae

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 12:39

Rally legend Ove Anderson was the founder of the squad, I recall. He has got a great trust from Japanese Toyota for the development of the Toyota's motor sport development program as well, I recall if I am correct. I believe this way of giving full trust to the one who performed the most within their previous operation is very Japanese, no matter where the man is coming from. I love this attitude actually. Just that this was no broad casted well enough for anyone to understand what Japanese is about Toyota operation, IMHO.

I remain modest in stating that Toyota should have approached the formula one racing in full Japanese engineering team rather than formulating 'winner' dream team in Europe, only because none will understand where the racing spirits is coming from. It is hard to make difference from a successful business man buying around winning assets and devastate the existing market, well why not, but 'most' do not love such attitude again IMHO...

Right, but Ove Anderson retired from helm (stayed as an consultant) in 2003. Credit to him, but after him there were other people in charge.

#55 Fastcake

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 13:37

I really don't see how the nationality of the team has any bearing on the success of Toyota in Formula One. How would setting up a new team in Japan automatically gain them any more success than the previous effort in Germany?

#56 TF110

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 18:47

They should have dropped Trulli and Ralf a long time before. They were well past their due date IMO. Then they replace Ralf with Glock who isn't much if at all better. You see where they ended up after Toyota left- Ralf Retired and is slow in DTM, Glock and Trulli went to Marussia and Caterham. That to me shows the stock of their drivers. Not much stock at all. The TF109 was a good car and second only to the Red Bull late in 2009's season. I hope they come back, but if they do they should continue to do what they're doing now in WEC as a philosophy. Hiring on Oreca as a 'helping hand' is a wise decision as they know the in's and out's of LeMans style racing. Some of their strategies were baffling in F1. Bahrain 2009 was the biggest one IMO. A sure win tossed by the wrong tire choice in the 2nd stint.

#57 Baddoer

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 14:27

They should only make the engines and let more competent people to race. Oh wait, their engine guy was from Ferrari...

#58 ApexMouse

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 15:27

As one person designs the engine of course. Hush.

#59 One

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 15:33

They should only make the engines and let more competent people to race. Oh wait, their engine guy was from Ferrari...


Toyota should be back if they wants to beat this kind of stupid arguments, tho it was true...

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#60 muramasa

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 16:15

I'm always thinking that Toyota's unsuccessful years happen not because the Japanese's philosophy - the Kaizen, but more to their employees who running the team unable to understand their 'Kaizen' method..

true about first part of your sentence, either with or without Japanese philosophy has got nothing to do with their result. About kaizen tho, actually i doubt Toyota GmbH was doing Kaizen at all. Kaizen just refers to Toyota's complex, dynamic production system of right place right time, sort of, and imo highly overrated - to the extent that people like to apply kaizen to just anything about Toyota or even Japan. I remember some people even claimed that even to implement small update to front wing, they need approval from Toyota board in Japan :lol: :rolleyes: :lol: Total bullshit I'd say.

And I dont consider their F1 challenge exactly as failure or unsuccessful. Their problem was that they were stable at podium challenging position every year. It's just that in 00s building F1 team from scratch and grow into championship contender has become extremely difficult. BMW went close and got a victory but actually couldnt quite achieve it. Mercedes since acquisition of Brackley has been pretty mediocre, sure they've got 1 win but they've never been more than upper mid-fielder.
And BMW and Merc arent Japanese.
Even teams like Mclaren and Ferrari have been struggling to win championship for the last several years, and they arent Japanese either. So to say Toyota and Honda have been poor because of Japanese philosophy is nothing but ridiculous.

I remember Gascoyne had had some (very) negative things to say about Toyota, but looking back now he's only produced good car in 99 Jordan.
-Renault cars under him were poor and it's only after he left for Toyota that Renault started to be stronger.
-his Toyota cars were going nowhere, and Toyota actually started to go upward after he left.
-then midland/spyker were slowest car on the grid, and after his departure Force India got better again and now is solid midfielder despite all these financial mess.
-his current team Caterham is going nowhere at the bottom despite decent financial situation, and now being surpassed by Marrusia.


I actually do hope to see Toyota back on grid. Would be great to see all Japanese engineers instead, not a fake Toyota guys from Germany and England. Toyota is a mighty successful Japanese Car Maker, we should want to see how Japanese Group will go in to the formula one operation and make then a radical change in thinking. Should be much more evolutionary done than how Red Bull has done it.

jeeeeeeeeeeesus :lol: :lol: :lol:
come on, Ferrari hires many "foreigners" top engineers. Actually many Japanese enginners go to Toyota Gmbh. And you know there are some Japanese engineers working in Mclaren, Ferrari, Lotus and FI.
Anyways, realistically, to do international racing you need european base. it would be of course nice to see Japanese racing operation done in Japan, simply because it would give variety to international racing and interesting standpoint, but unfortunately logistics wise it's not quite effective.



#61 Disgrace

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 23:15

I've never seen such a long post full of such rubbish. Your slandering of Gascoyne is utterly pathetic and downright false. Anyone simpleton could pick that post apart but your bias makes it a most unattractive proposition.

Edited by Disgrace, 06 April 2013 - 23:26.


#62 Eff One 2002

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 00:40

Probably bullshit, but I'm all for new teams.

#63 JonathanProc

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 01:17

The TF109 was a good car and second only to the Red Bull late in 2009's season.


I remember the McLaren being better than the Toyota and maybe even the Red Bull too in the latter half of '09 though.

Apologies for going slightly off-topic!

#64 muramasa

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 04:33

I've never seen such a long post full of such rubbish. Your slandering of Gascoyne is utterly pathetic and downright false. Anyone simpleton could pick that post apart but your bias makes it a most unattractive proposition.

Why not take the simpleton role by yourself?
I'm not saying Gascoyne is crap, he may have been always in wrong place wrong time to certain degree but he's not quite up to the hype apparently. Extremely competitive engineer no doubt but he's not the kind of Newey, Allison, Bell, Tombaziz etc that he's been considered to be. At least he hasnt quite proved yet.
Regarding Toyota there are far too many negative bias in general and many of what Gascoyne said and people's criticism towards Toyota that followed his remarks were quite exaggerated to say the least. If pope or king or whoever said sth inappropriate, I wouldnt hesitate to point out, and it's completely separate from dissing. that's the point.
But it's not rubbish nor pathetic nor false that none of his cars were particularly special except 99 Jordan. His Toyota cars were solid but that's it, and was not going anywhere above certain level. And after he left Toyota was doing just fine and actually their development direction seemed to have been settled and streamlined.
Maybe if he gets chance at teams like Lotus or Williams or Ferrari or whatever he might finally prove his worth, which of course would be fantastic.



#65 Iremos

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 04:38

true about first part of your sentence, either with or without Japanese philosophy has got nothing to do with their result. About kaizen tho, actually i doubt Toyota GmbH was doing Kaizen at all. Kaizen just refers to Toyota's complex, dynamic production system of right place right time, sort of, and imo highly overrated - to the extent that people like to apply kaizen to just anything about Toyota or even Japan. I remember some people even claimed that even to implement small update to front wing, they need approval from Toyota board in Japan :lol: :rolleyes: :lol: Total bullshit I'd say.

And I dont consider their F1 challenge exactly as failure or unsuccessful. Their problem was that they were stable at podium challenging position every year. It's just that in 00s building F1 team from scratch and grow into championship contender has become extremely difficult. BMW went close and got a victory but actually couldnt quite achieve it. Mercedes since acquisition of Brackley has been pretty mediocre, sure they've got 1 win but they've never been more than upper mid-fielder.
And BMW and Merc arent Japanese.
Even teams like Mclaren and Ferrari have been struggling to win championship for the last several years, and they arent Japanese either. So to say Toyota and Honda have been poor because of Japanese philosophy is nothing but ridiculous.

I remember Gascoyne had had some (very) negative things to say about Toyota, but looking back now he's only produced good car in 99 Jordan.
-Renault cars under him were poor and it's only after he left for Toyota that Renault started to be stronger.
-his Toyota cars were going nowhere, and Toyota actually started to go upward after he left.
-then midland/spyker were slowest car on the grid, and after his departure Force India got better again and now is solid midfielder despite all these financial mess.
-his current team Caterham is going nowhere at the bottom despite decent financial situation, and now being surpassed by Marrusia.



jeeeeeeeeeeesus :lol: :lol: :lol:
come on, Ferrari hires many "foreigners" top engineers. Actually many Japanese enginners go to Toyota Gmbh. And you know there are some Japanese engineers working in Mclaren, Ferrari, Lotus and FI.
Anyways, realistically, to do international racing you need european base. it would be of course nice to see Japanese racing operation done in Japan, simply because it would give variety to international racing and interesting standpoint, but unfortunately logistics wise it's not quite effective.



This was actually a good post! :up:

#66 One

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 11:11

jeeeeeeeeeeesus :lol: :lol: :lol:
come on, Ferrari hires many "foreigners" top engineers. Actually many Japanese enginners go to Toyota Gmbh. And you know there are some Japanese engineers working in Mclaren, Ferrari, Lotus and FI.
Anyways, realistically, to do international racing you need european base. it would be of course nice to see Japanese racing operation done in Japan, simply because it would give variety to international racing and interesting standpoint, but unfortunately logistics wise it's not quite effective.


:rolleyes:

IMHO what is important is that fans understand what Toyota is about, not a racing team themselves.

It does not need a rocket science to understand that quickest way will be to assemble a dream team by cashing in. But was it also successful in creating understanding and support from all the world? I do think it was not. IMHO, it was doubtful if it were not failure, as the majority suggested stories how Toyota was doing things, and being urged to spoke to each other with the way Toyota spend money, concerned that Toyota will change the formula one as sport, got whispering, finger pointing and finally it folded with no WCC nor WDC.

On the contrary, what has Super Aguri did? If you aske fans about Super Aguri, then they will tell you that they are the smallest team but foght well on track, got charactor, got stories to tell, passionate and hate Honda for pushing them to fold. HOnda has another compensation stories for Brawn so made their face OK, but IMHO Honda;s conduct against Super Aguri was not popular. OK, millions was involved so I do understand a bit tho.

1. If you do formula one for marketing sake, then the team MUST BE POPULAR.
2. If you do formula one for winning, then the team MUST WIN.
3. If you do formula one for the sake of just be on the grid then just spend money.

I wonder what results have some teams left?

#67 muramasa

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 14:31

:rolleyes:

IMHO what is important is that fans understand what Toyota is about, not a racing team themselves.

It does not need a rocket science to understand that quickest way will be to assemble a dream team by cashing in. But was it also successful in creating understanding and support from all the world? I do think it was not. IMHO, it was doubtful if it were not failure, as the majority suggested stories how Toyota was doing things, and being urged to spoke to each other with the way Toyota spend money, concerned that Toyota will change the formula one as sport, got whispering, finger pointing and finally it folded with no WCC nor WDC.

On the contrary, what has Super Aguri did? If you aske fans about Super Aguri, then they will tell you that they are the smallest team but foght well on track, got charactor, got stories to tell, passionate and hate Honda for pushing them to fold. HOnda has another compensation stories for Brawn so made their face OK, but IMHO Honda;s conduct against Super Aguri was not popular. OK, millions was involved so I do understand a bit tho.

1. If you do formula one for marketing sake, then the team MUST BE POPULAR.
2. If you do formula one for winning, then the team MUST WIN.
3. If you do formula one for the sake of just be on the grid then just spend money.

I wonder what results have some teams left?

Actually i agree with most of your point, I'd like to see "truly Japanese" racing operation (either F1 or WEC) too. (I know what you mean by "fake german/british...", but hey :lol: )
and I've got too many harsh things to say about Toyota and Honda (as well as other JP manufactures), not just F1 but also overall marketing/manufacturing strategy. But many stories regarding Toyota are simply not fact often and sometimes complete bs, yet people still believe in them. Many of bashing they received and are receiving are completely baseless and illogical , so i can hardly know how can they be responsible. They are rather generic and conservative so tend to be easy target is my opinion.

Anyway if you be realistic, to do full scale international racing from Japan and build R&D facility solely dedicated to it here makes less logistics sense. you need base somewhere in europe to commit to it and be flexible at the same time. To do it from Japan is like Audi or Pegeot doing SuperGT from europe.

Maybe it's Toyota/Honda themselves who want to do it from Japan more than anyone, but they should realize those issues well more than anyone as well.
We talked about Super Aguri recently and yea i think it's one possibility too, but unfortunately current F1 doesnt offer realistically sustainable opportunity to Japanese teams based in Japan.
I want them to do better and be more aggressive tho, but that's easier said than done.


#68 One

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 21:35

OK, the world economy crisis happened, and Honda exit the formula one in a very elegant manner, perhaps Toyota a bit bit less, but I still have to say a one great thing of Toyota, which is that now Ferrari uses their tunnel. The team still is running, showing their relevancy to the teams and achieving status. Toyota's unfinished car was widely viewed with surprise and many thought that it might have stolen a show or two.

They are planning to come back with Lexus Badge that is interesting if it were true. I assume it will be an American guy on the helm and talking as American team, big mouth.

How about Nakajima and other Japanese driver? I am not sure. I think that Toyota will make money on Lexus and find no problem there, and that is how Toyota is I am assuming. Perhaps Toyota has nothing to do with being a Japanese folk.

#69 repcobrabham

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 23:36

But in this case where's the joke? It's not like the April Fool's about a decade back where KIA were joining CART.


don't get me wrong, i don't think it's particularly funny or clever - but the rumour originated on a lexus site, so it's a gag for the target audience that has spiralled out of control (IMHO).

#70 One

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 11:35

Anyway if you be realistic, to do full scale international racing from Japan and build R&D facility solely dedicated to it here makes less logistics sense. you need base somewhere in europe to commit to it and be flexible at the same time. To do it from Japan is like Audi or Pegeot doing SuperGT from europe.


Let me get back to this point.

I have no clue how you can conclude as you have for Toyota operation, if you consider Toyota had seemingly NO limit in their budget. No limit means that they can transport anything they want to anywhere and pay anything to anybody. Full Stop. Only time is the factor. Then that is exactly where TOYOTA excels any company in the whole world. Actually TOYOTA is the best on earth in terms of managing time, products and resources.

So why have TOYOTA be dependent on European operation? My answer is very simple. TOYOTA knew that TOYOTA's technology and knowledge themselves is insufficient to make TOYOTA the champion on the formula one track, It CANNOT be done by themselves. So TOYOTA cried for help.

Honda is the same to my opinion, except that from Sochiro.

#71 Gene and Tonic

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 18:49

Motorsport Magazine tweeted this today: https://twitter.com/...905521834516483

#72 Sakae

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 19:25

Motorsport Magazine tweeted this today: https://twitter.com/...905521834516483

...and their (Lexus engine) customers are..?

#73 Gene and Tonic

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 00:12

Well I don't know - perhaps Marussia? With Minardi involved you'd think maybe Toro Rosso, but I thought the stage was set for them to move to Renault engines next year. I checked twitter around the time they posted that tweet and there were no others related, so I don't know where the magazine have got the info. Maybe from conversations with inside sources perhaps.

#74 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 00:17

I don't understand the Minardi link.

#75 tweiss

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 02:39

unless they've been developing an engine for 6+ months absolutely no chance for 2014.

Maybe they bought the PURE motor from Pollack...he was using their Germany facilities for development.....

#76 Timstr11

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 04:43

Motorsport Magazine tweeted this today: https://twitter.com/...905521834516483

Minardi invloved?
I don't know where Motorsport-Magazine gets that from because Italian media are only saying that Minardi heard rumors of Toyota stepping in as engine supplier from Cologne.
There has been no mention of Minardi's involvement. I don't see why he would be involved either: http://www.blogf1.it...lexus-dal-2014/

Edited by Timstr11, 19 April 2013 - 04:45.


#77 Sakae

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 04:53

Well I don't know - perhaps Marussia? With Minardi involved you'd think maybe Toro Rosso, but I thought the stage was set for them to move to Renault engines next year. I checked twitter around the time they posted that tweet and there were no others related, so I don't know where the magazine have got the info. Maybe from conversations with inside sources perhaps.

From the article - two names are mentioned, Williams and (maybe) McLaren

#78 peroa

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 06:13

lol, more engines than teams in 2014...

#79 SpaMaster

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 06:22

Let me get back to this point.

I have no clue how you can conclude as you have for Toyota operation, if you consider Toyota had seemingly NO limit in their budget. No limit means that they can transport anything they want to anywhere and pay anything to anybody. Full Stop. Only time is the factor. Then that is exactly where TOYOTA excels any company in the whole world. Actually TOYOTA is the best on earth in terms of managing time, products and resources.

So why have TOYOTA be dependent on European operation? My answer is very simple. TOYOTA knew that TOYOTA's technology and knowledge themselves is insufficient to make TOYOTA the champion on the formula one track, It CANNOT be done by themselves. So TOYOTA cried for help.

Honda is the same to my opinion, except that from Sochiro.

No limit means they can waste as much money as they want? No limit is for needful purposes. Not so that they can set up their operations in Antarctica. What about other teams that are not so great in time management and setting up their operations in Europe? Europe is preferred mainly for logistic reasons. Not because Europe has the most intelligent people in the world.

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#80 Shiroo

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 06:39

maybe Lotus :p? Lotus-Lexus xD

#81 One

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 10:00

No limit means they can waste as much money as they want? No limit is for needful purposes. Not so that they can set up their operations in Antarctica. What about other teams that are not so great in time management and setting up their operations in Europe? Europe is preferred mainly for logistic reasons. Not because Europe has the most intelligent people in the world.


Are you from an illogical country? Pls do not blame me fr what I did not write.

1. TOYOTA is a Japanese company, obviously I am talking about TOYOTA setting up team in Japan. I have no clue why you mention Antarctica. Only thing I can imagine is that Japan is a part of Antarctica. I hope not for you that you do not mean Japan is geographically part of southern pole, but in terms of vicinity to the heart of sport. But let me remind you, TOYOTA makes the best car that could beat Merc in Japan. SO what the issue to set up a formula one team in Japan, if you can pay all necessary cost for it? Time is the problem as it takes eleven hours to fly things from Japan to Europe for example. But TOYOTA is extremely good at managing those, including logistics. The Best, and it means a lot, then beat the rest, try it, otherwise there is no point.

2. I have no idea why you are talking about money not for needful purposes. NO, I do state that the cost must be as small as possible no matter what, because the best team operate like that. The championship winning team like Ferrari does not waist money. Not because they have too little, but because spending money in in correct work wast time in ineffective works, that makes team go slow. So spend money as little as possible, is the key to make the operation as pointy as possible to win the game. If it finally ending up in spending 500 million Euro, OK, that is a lot of money, for some team that is too much to spend, but for Toyota that is not expensive. A lot of money is not always too expensive.

3. Forget Europe if you are Japanese company. TOYOTA is taking the world market from JAPAN, and that is sopposed to be the pride of a Japanese company, that is the world No.1. Europe means where you sell your cars, where your valued customers are, but it is not where you base your pride. That is what I think, but obviously that is not what TOYOTA thinks. As to how you feel, is not what I should like to unfold my discussion, as I am talking about TOYOTA. But if you have arguments that why TOYOTA needs to feel Europe as their root of pride, please let me know.

4. If you are European and does have root, then I think it is obviously natural that you do have some Eurocentric idea.

#82 Fastcake

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 10:16

maybe Lotus :p? Lotus-Lexus xD


As big a pain that would be to pronounce, Lotus would be the most logical team to hook up with. With McLaren and Honda all but certain, Lotus would be the biggest team left without a works engine deal.

#83 Sakae

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 12:00

3. Forget Europe if you are Japanese company. TOYOTA is taking the world market from JAPAN, and that is sopposed to be the pride of a Japanese company, that is the world No.1. Europe means where you sell your cars, where your valued customers are, but it is not where you base your pride. That is what I think, but obviously that is not what TOYOTA thinks. As to how you feel, is not what I should like to unfold my discussion, as I am talking about TOYOTA. But if you have arguments that why TOYOTA needs to feel Europe as their root of pride, please let me know.


You seems to write about a subject in terms aligned to your way of thinking, but in real terms you seems to be lacking real world knowledge. FYI, Toyota opened marketing office in Europe, and was developing their survey and marketing strategy for full five years (according to an article I read long time ago in a business section), before they decided to enter EU market, so they know a thing or two about local conditions.
Your advise "Forget Europe if you are Japanese company" is really not adhering their strategy, however there are other factors (currencies disparities, investments in local manufacturing plants, market oversaturation with suppliers, etc.) why certain steps were cancelled or redirected to Asian market, temporarily, of course, but forget EU? I think not; it's a market of over 500 mill people, and no one in his healthy mid will toss that out of door for good. Problem also is, that due to energy cost, Europeans do not like to borrow much, and as long public transport is quite good, we do buy cars, but we are choosy in our shopping, and German designed cars are performing relatively well in sales on several continents for reasonable cost. Competition is high, but I live in Europe, and I do see actually Nissans, Toyotas, and Hondas in the streets, just as Hyundais, and Kia. Those guys know what they are doing, and they do not need out advise. Japan has overcome initial stigma in USA, pawed way for other countries like Korea, and today no one gives a second thought to it, despite that I have seen recently Ford waving national flag into buyer's faces once again. Europe will accept and welcome Japanese cars just as well, as they do with their VW. No problem.

Edited by Sakae, 19 April 2013 - 12:03.


#84 One

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 12:37

You seems to write about a subject in terms aligned to your way of thinking, but in real terms you seems to be lacking real world knowledge. FYI, Toyota opened marketing office in Europe, and was developing their survey and marketing strategy for full five years (according to an article I read long time ago in a business section), before they decided to enter EU market, so they know a thing or two about local conditions.
Your advise "Forget Europe if you are Japanese company" is really not adhering their strategy, however there are other factors (currencies disparities, investments in local manufacturing plants, market oversaturation with suppliers, etc.) why certain steps were cancelled or redirected to Asian market, temporarily, of course, but forget EU? I think not; it's a market of over 500 mill people, and no one in his healthy mid will toss that out of door for good. Problem also is, that due to energy cost, Europeans do not like to borrow much, and as long public transport is quite good, we do buy cars, but we are choosy in our shopping, and German designed cars are performing relatively well in sales on several continents for reasonable cost. Competition is high, but I live in Europe, and I do see actually Nissans, Toyotas, and Hondas in the streets, just as Hyundais, and Kia. Those guys know what they are doing, and they do not need out advise. Japan has overcome initial stigma in USA, pawed way for other countries like Korea, and today no one gives a second thought to it, despite that I have seen recently Ford waving national flag into buyer's faces once again. Europe will accept and welcome Japanese cars just as well, as they do with their VW. No problem.


Ha Mr. Sakae, I am convinced that you are also busy talking about your own subject but not mine. OK, I take it a part pf this mis-com.'s comes from my too quick writing.

1. It is only about Formula One Racing team, that I am referring to.
2. Toyota Road Cars in Europe, and in other part of the world, has good reputation. So much so that some envy its success.
3. Toyota and Honda did fight a lot on the formula one track, which was good to set the tone of the product.

But if you like talk abourt road car here is wat I think. All Ferrari owner wants to own True Italian Ferrari. They do not want Ferrari made in China isn't it? And Toyota Super Car (not the most accessible road car) owner wants own Toyota made in China and be proud of it and pays much for it? Com'n I do not think so.

It is too sneaky to say that Toyota is the best car company because they have won formula one championship, if the team in Europe does that. OK, Merc is working with Ba British operation and bought British engine maker and saying that Mercedes is a great car company. Buy hey, do German race fans care about their winning race team being setup in Britain? How about after Braw and Todt, Stefano and Costa got the lead of Ferrari operation, and what do we think about the motivation of Luca to do so? Pride, yes, but sending out good buzz for marketing, that is truly the reason. Do it from Japan and show off what Toyota of Japan can do. Win the championship in this way, this impresses the world THE MOST. that is it. THE MOST.

#85 TF110

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 22:59

Toyota's supercar the Lexus LFA is made in Japan :wave: Every Lexus car was made in Japan until they just announced that the ES series car will be made in the USA. TMG (who ran the F1 team, and current WEC team) stemmed from TTE, Toyota Team Europe. It's all a part of the Toyota family. Do not think that this is separate. There are Japanese board members that are involved in the WEC project, and the engine and hybrid powertrain are made in Japan! This is the best of both worlds. That is what Toyota is. Not "just Japanese". People need to remember that.

#86 blowndiffuser

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 06:40

I do think the Enstone team would be the most logical choice if Lexus were to enter F1. And, I'm sure it would be easy to ditch the Lotus namesake as there are hardly any links or reasons for advertising the Lotus brand at the moment.

Edited by blowndiffuser, 20 April 2013 - 06:44.


#87 McBain

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 13:28

The Lexus RX has been made in Cambridge, Canada for 10 years now.

#88 onewingedangel

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 13:42

http://www.motorspor...omeback-rumour/

A return with Williams would make sense for both sides. With Toto Wolff looking to sell his shares, could we see Toyota take a stakeholding?

#89 Sakae

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 14:24

Now Honda (in 2015) as well?

#90 Fastcake

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 16:24

Now Honda (in 2015) as well?


That's rather old news Sakae, we've been discussing Honda for months.

#91 Sakae

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 09:13

grandprix.com

"Yes, even Toyota is toying with a comeback," Swiss newspaper Blick's veteran correspondent Roger Benoit said in Bahrain.

"The Japanese have Williams in sight, and they could get Japanese favourite Kamui Kobayashi back in a race cockpit."Senior Renault engine figure Rob White, however, doubts not only the Toyota rumours, but also the reports that Honda's plans are already well advanced.

"If they actually wanted to come back," he is quoted by Speed Week, "then why not take part in the planning meetings?

"We have never received a request in this regard -- the meetings are always only represented by Ferrari, Mercedes and us.



#92 Gene and Tonic

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 09:28

Is it 2009 again?

#93 Dunc

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 15:54

I'd be surprised if that were to happen, Dietrich has spent any awful lot of $'s to get RBR to where they are now and its all part of his mass global marketing campaign for Red Bull, i can't see him giving that up, not for any amount of money. I could see their Renault engines being re-bagded though.


I actually think this is not that daft a suggestion. Corporations want to be linked to success and when RBR's current level of success comes to an end - which sooner or later it has to do - I doubt the corporation will stay in F1.

I hope Toyota do come back to F1, and bring Kamui with them. Putting him in a Williams would be awesome!

Edited by Dunc, 25 April 2013 - 15:56.


#94 TF110

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 16:28

The Lexus RX has been made in Cambridge, Canada for 10 years now.

Every Lexus CAR is made currently in japan. Not SUVs.;)

#95 Sakae

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 17:07

Ha Mr. Sakae, I am convinced that you are also busy talking about your own subject but not mine. OK, I take it a part pf this mis-com.'s comes from my too quick writing.

1. It is only about Formula One Racing team, that I am referring to.
2. Toyota Road Cars in Europe, and in other part of the world, has good reputation. So much so that some envy its success.
3. Toyota and Honda did fight a lot on the formula one track, which was good to set the tone of the product.

But if you like talk abourt road car here is wat I think. All Ferrari owner wants to own True Italian Ferrari. They do not want Ferrari made in China isn't it? And Toyota Super Car (not the most accessible road car) owner wants own Toyota made in China and be proud of it and pays much for it? Com'n I do not think so.

It is too sneaky to say that Toyota is the best car company because they have won formula one championship, if the team in Europe does that. OK, Merc is working with Ba British operation and bought British engine maker and saying that Mercedes is a great car company. Buy hey, do German race fans care about their winning race team being setup in Britain? How about after Braw and Todt, Stefano and Costa got the lead of Ferrari operation, and what do we think about the motivation of Luca to do so? Pride, yes, but sending out good buzz for marketing, that is truly the reason. Do it from Japan and show off what Toyota of Japan can do. Win the championship in this way, this impresses the world THE MOST. that is it. THE MOST.

Sorry, but what's your point again in this?

#96 Sakae

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 17:15

Every Lexus CAR is made currently in japan. Not SUVs.;)

Cambridge South plant is the only one outside of Japan, where RX 350 is built. The other two are for Corola, and last one I think is a crossover.

Edited by Sakae, 25 April 2013 - 17:17.


#97 One

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 20:12

Sorry, but what's your point again in this?


Toyota can do it from japan, yet it does not want it because Toyota thinks that they are not anymore Japanese. They are wrong, IMHO.

#98 Sakae

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 20:56

Toyota can do it from japan, yet it does not want it because Toyota thinks that they are not anymore Japanese. They are wrong, IMHO.


I have feeling that I should not touch this one, but OK, I bite. How did you arrive to that conclusion?

#99 One

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 07:02

I have feeling that I should not touch this one, but OK, I bite. How did you arrive to that conclusion?


Well it is a general tendency to set up such a large company as international operation, at some point it's cultures melts or seems to feel melted to become in some way rooted to other culture. European Toyota has been active good long time, made good results in Sport car racing, WRC and so on. Jean Todt got hands in the past as well, If I recall correctly.

This makes it logical to do it from TTE, but strange things happen in Formula One, suddenly the world look Toyota as from Nationality anchored operation.


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#100 PayasYouRace

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 08:03

Toyota can do it from japan, yet it does not want it because Toyota thinks that they are not anymore Japanese. They are wrong, IMHO.


They could but it would be making things a lot harder for themselves. They'd have to either work everything out for themselves or convince a bunch of expert engineers who are most likely settled family men to move halfway across the world.

The F1 industry is based in the Oxfordshire area for a reason. That's where the experience and the expertise is.