Jump to content


Photo
* * - - - 6 votes

Sergio Perez's inexperience hurting McLaren?


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
90 replies to this topic

#51 Peter Perfect

Peter Perfect
  • Member

  • 4,877 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 06 April 2013 - 06:24

Isnt it a bit premature to claim that after just 2 races?

Extremely.

Unless you work for McLaren and know exactly what the drivers contribution has been so far this year I honestly don't think it's possible to know.

Besides which, as Boxerevo said, McLaren have bigger problems at the moment.

Advertisement

#52 SophieB

SophieB
  • RC Forum Host

  • 2,320 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 06 April 2013 - 07:04

That is ridiculous thing to say especially after it was Mclaren themselves who claimed the now had the Perfect blend of experience and a young potentially fantastic driver who just needed polishing off and finishing and that was what Mclaren are good at.

So after 2 races its his fault the team are suffering? The team are deriving other benefits from having Sergio instead of Lewis, they get to have a senior/junior driver and can build and focus on the older guy while the younger ones 'gets his edges smoothed' (presumably by Sam Michael)
They can then avoid having a number 1/2 driver yet have their expereinced WC driver lead the team like Alonso has done


Except...ARE they especially good at that, though? For every time they've taken a chance and it’s paid off, there's one where it's been disastrous. For every Mika Hakkinen, there's a Michael Andretti in their history. Heikki claimed he found the McLaren approach of 'well, you're raw around the edges now but don't worry we will make you good' only made him doubt himself and his talent. Incidentally, Lewis prior to 2007 was apparently told much the same as Heikki, that he shouldn't worry if he was half a second slower than Fernando. But the difference between Heikki and Lewis can be seen in his response. He says he just nodded politely and thought 'yeah, that's not going to happen...' In short, I suspect the McLaren driver moulding thing harms more than it helps and is best ignored.

Also, yeah what you've outlined above strikes me as exactly a number 1/2 driver system but without having to call it that. I agree it helps Button hugely who gets all the advantage of that without taking the flak that say, Alonso gets at Ferrari for being openly acknowledged as the lead driver. But it doesn't help Perez much. McLaren can talk about excusing future inexperience all they like but, as has been seen, that only makes some of the press loudly question why McLaren have suddenly started running a Finishing School.

Edited by SophieB, 06 April 2013 - 07:20.


#53 Fatgadget

Fatgadget
  • Member

  • 1,995 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 06 April 2013 - 07:37

Poor Sergio Perez.Hamilton's seat at McLaren is now a poisoned chalice! :p
Lets face it,whoever steps into it will forever be compared to Hamilton.Effectivelly has to win the WDC in their first season! :eek:

#54 charly0418

charly0418
  • Member

  • 1,318 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 06 April 2013 - 08:59

Effectivelly has to win the WDC in their first season! :eek:


huh, what?

#55 Fatgadget

Fatgadget
  • Member

  • 1,995 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 06 April 2013 - 09:44

huh, what?

You heard me.Lewis Hamilton very nearly won the championship on his first attempt...Anyone stepping into his seat has gotta do better to eclipse him.

#56 kosmos

kosmos
  • Member

  • 7,056 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 06 April 2013 - 10:08

You heard me.Lewis Hamilton very nearly won ...Anyone stepping into his seat has gotta do better to eclipse him.


The one who should do better is the team, build a car that it's as good as the 2007 car, then ask whatever you want to Perez.

#57 V8 Fireworks

V8 Fireworks
  • Member

  • 5,534 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 06 April 2013 - 10:21

it was a Jenson-friendly decision to choose the young Perez over Hulk; so they have what they wanted.

If Hulk is so good why is he not driving the Sauber in a masterful and precise way as a future champion? I noted a scrappy and middling performance from Hulk in Malaysia.
Gutierrez is far too close to Hulk IMO.

#58 V8 Fireworks

V8 Fireworks
  • Member

  • 5,534 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 06 April 2013 - 10:24

Every year,when a Mclaren comes to a braking zone is shake-shake-shake

They chose not to run the flexy front wing of RBR too.

Ultimately, a very stiff suspension is very acceptable by FIA regulations, whilst RBR's solution to aero and ride height is grey at best.

#59 JaredS

JaredS
  • Member

  • 1,142 posts
  • Joined: December 12

Posted 06 April 2013 - 12:37

"He [Perez] had some great races last year but I'm not yet clear as to what level of information or value he brings the team. "Give Perez a really good car and he might shine but to me the ultimate driver is one who can drag performance out of an underperforming car. The jury is still out as to whether Perez has the potential to do that."[/i]

http://www.f1times.c...s/display/07423


Well we don't yet know if Perez can drag performance out of a bad car. I tend to agree and don't expect that he can but haven't seen enough yet and he's just joined the team. However I'm not sure why he's focusing on Perez because let's face it, we know Jenson can't drag performance out of a bad car. Jenson himself admits it.

Advertisement

#60 Seanspeed

Seanspeed
  • Member

  • 14,524 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 06 April 2013 - 13:04

Well we don't yet know if Perez can drag performance out of a bad car.

I agree this thread is too early and maybe too eager, but man, some of you are treating Perez as if he's a rookie thrown straight into a top team or something. He's been at Sauber for 2 years already. Going into your 3rd season, you are not an 'inexperienced driver' anymore and its weird how everybody is treating him as so.

For me, there's no excuses if he doesn't perform this year.

#61 zottzell

zottzell
  • Member

  • 117 posts
  • Joined: June 12

Posted 06 April 2013 - 13:17

So the conclusions being drawn after the first two races basically is that Perez is crap based on just the track record of these first two races when compared to Hamiltons first season.
And then totally disregarding that the situation is completely different seeing that Hamilton at that time had a seriously competitive car and Perez is driving what's arguably is at best the 5:th top car in the field.
Seems really unfair I have to say, feels kinda strange to say it but I cant really wait until this season is over and all the Hamilton fans have gotten rooted in the Mercedes threads and thus leaving the McLaren threads to the people genuinely interested in the team (I'm not even a McLaren fan but I got great respect the tradition and the team as such).

#62 Baddoer

Baddoer
  • Member

  • 1,495 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 06 April 2013 - 13:44

These guys like Watson or Stewart just lost touch with reality and are here to make noises ensuring 1% of people still remember them.

#63 MirNyet

MirNyet
  • Member

  • 911 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 06 April 2013 - 13:49

Not a fan of either driver but until McLaren addresses whatever if affecting the car, neither driver is hurting the team - there is a possibility they will slow down the recovery, but McLaren needs to sort the car first. Until they do that, any discussion of the drivers is pointless.

Nonsense thread...

#64 study

study
  • Member

  • 2,452 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 06 April 2013 - 14:10

Seems really unfair I have to say, feels kinda strange to say it but I cant really wait until this season is over and all the Hamilton fans have gotten rooted in the Mercedes threads and thus leaving the McLaren threads to the people genuinely interested in the team (I'm not even a McLaren fan but I got great respect the tradition and the team as such).


I think thats insulting. I was a supporter of McLaren long before Lewis came on the scene, but I am no longer due to that fact Whitmarsh, Michaels and Button are running the show there, this pally little group will be the downfall of mclaren with there miss management.

Edited by study, 06 April 2013 - 18:00.


#65 muramasa

muramasa
  • Member

  • 3,213 posts
  • Joined: November 08

Posted 06 April 2013 - 14:25

For me, there's no excuses if he doesn't perform this year.

like Massa and Webber.

oh wait...


#66 JaredS

JaredS
  • Member

  • 1,142 posts
  • Joined: December 12

Posted 06 April 2013 - 14:33

I agree this thread is too early and maybe too eager, but man, some of you are treating Perez as if he's a rookie thrown straight into a top team or something. He's been at Sauber for 2 years already. Going into your 3rd season, you are not an 'inexperienced driver' anymore and its weird how everybody is treating him as so.

For me, there's no excuses if he doesn't perform this year.


Fully agree with you. He's got to be up there soon, but my main point is that it's only been 2 races and he hasn't been too shabby either. There seems to be a very polarised view - either he's as strong as Lewis or he's considered a failure. That's very unfair in my opinion.

#67 fabr68

fabr68
  • Member

  • 3,963 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 06 April 2013 - 14:37

I think at this moment Mclaren is hurting Perez reputation more than the other way around. He is after all, their leading driver on the WDC standings at the moment.

Too early to judge.

#68 study

study
  • Member

  • 2,452 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 06 April 2013 - 15:19

Yep that is a good question, he is leading equal with Button at the moment, how come this is reflecting badly on Perez but is okay for Button?

#69 MirNyet

MirNyet
  • Member

  • 911 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 06 April 2013 - 15:30

Yep that is a good question, he is leading equal with Button at the moment, how come this is reflecting badly on Perez but is okay for Button?


Button has a car related DNF to his name.

#70 Seanspeed

Seanspeed
  • Member

  • 14,524 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 06 April 2013 - 15:49

like Massa and Webber.

oh wait...

Have no idea what you're talking about.

Fully agree with you. He's got to be up there soon, but my main point is that it's only been 2 races and he hasn't been too shabby either. There seems to be a very polarised view - either he's as strong as Lewis or he's considered a failure. That's very unfair in my opinion.

Well you said we haven't seen what he can do in a poor car, but you're acting like he's been at Mclaren his whole life. Would you consider the Saubers of the past two years to be great cars? They've had their moments, sure, but they've still only been 7th and 6th in the WCC the past two years respectively. I think he's done his 'apprenticeship' in lesser cars already so we know exactly what he can do in them.

I dont think anybody was ever thinking he's the next Lewis Hamilton, either. I think some Mclaren fans may just desire that Lewis' replacement at least better better-than-mediocre, which I think is a reasonable expectation. So far, Perez isn't acheiving that, but there's still time to prove himself yet.

Yep that is a good question, he is leading equal with Button at the moment, how come this is reflecting badly on Perez but is okay for Button?

Button was set for a solid 5th place last race before the pit trouble. To pretend they've been equal is intellectually dishonest and you know it.

Edited by Seanspeed, 06 April 2013 - 15:51.


#71 SenorSjon

SenorSjon
  • Member

  • 1,478 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 06 April 2013 - 16:53

Perez is the first guy in the top teams to not have been able to endlessly test the car. Grosjean did Pirelli F1 testing before F1 and it was a big help in securing his GP2 crown due to tire knowledge. He even was Renault test driver in 2008.

When Kovalainen and later Hamilton came in the car, they knew it inside out on the track. Perez is still learning and I don't think he is doing too shabby. I'm more worried about Button, his form is beginning to show pre 2009 signs.


#72 balage06

balage06
  • Member

  • 83 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 06 April 2013 - 17:13

Perez is the first guy in the top teams to not have been able to endlessly test the car. Grosjean did Pirelli F1 testing before F1 and it was a big help in securing his GP2 crown due to tire knowledge. He even was Renault test driver in 2008.


So you think 10 laps in a demo car at a WSR event in 2008 and a few Pirelli test days with the old Toyota in 2010 are better preparation than two full seasons with Sauber? Interesting.

#73 trogggy

trogggy
  • Member

  • 7,334 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 06 April 2013 - 17:18

I'm more worried about Button, his form is beginning to show pre 2009 signs.

You really should go and have a look at the ratings thread.

As for Perez he's doing just fine - this is a silly thread.

#74 BillBald

BillBald
  • Member

  • 3,669 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 06 April 2013 - 17:21

A lot of wishful thinking going on here.



#75 JaredS

JaredS
  • Member

  • 1,142 posts
  • Joined: December 12

Posted 06 April 2013 - 17:27

Well you said we haven't seen what he can do in a poor car, but you're acting like he's been at Mclaren his whole life. Would you consider the Saubers of the past two years to be great cars?


Sean, there is a great deal in between poor and great.

#76 SenorSjon

SenorSjon
  • Member

  • 1,478 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 06 April 2013 - 17:31

Well, I thought I would check the database of F1Racing. It is a bit more work than post 2009 :p

Formula 1 test at Circuit de Catalunya 12 June 2008
8. fr Romain Grosjean Renault 01:23.899 60

Formula 1 test at Circuito Permanente de Jerez 22 July 2008
6. fr Romain Grosjean Renault 01:21.223 71

Formula 1 test at Circuito Permanente de Jerez 25 July 2008
4. fr Romain Grosjean Renault 01:19.561 90

Grosjean is still driving the Renault, only it is dubbed Lotus now. Combined with extra 2010 Pirelli testing is whole lot more than other drivers could have done (also with design pointers for Renault/Lotus). And I guess testing alongside Alonso isn't to bad either.;)

Perez doesn't have that luxury.

#77 jjcale

jjcale
  • Member

  • 7,290 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 06 April 2013 - 17:51

I agree this thread is too early and maybe too eager, but man, some of you are treating Perez as if he's a rookie thrown straight into a top team or something. He's been at Sauber for 2 years already. Going into your 3rd season, you are not an 'inexperienced driver' anymore and its weird how everybody is treating him as so.

For me, there's no excuses if he doesn't perform this year.


How do we know he is not already performing this year? even taking into account that its only 2 races so far...

Seeing he is new to the team and the car is supposedly flawed, or at least difficult to set up, I would give him a solid B so far. He could easily have been in the points in both races if Macca had not messed up his quali in Aus.

Edited by jjcale, 06 April 2013 - 17:59.


#78 study

study
  • Member

  • 2,452 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 06 April 2013 - 18:02

Button was set for a solid 5th place last race before the pit trouble. To pretend they've been equal is intellectually dishonest and you know it.


I'd assume that many of the crowd in the Button vs Lewis thread would have said Lewis troubles was dishonest in the reckoning up.

#79 trogggy

trogggy
  • Member

  • 7,334 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 06 April 2013 - 18:09

I'd assume that many of the crowd in the Button vs Lewis thread would have said Lewis troubles was dishonest in the reckoning up.

Get over it.

Advertisement

#80 Race2win

Race2win
  • New Member

  • 26 posts
  • Joined: March 13

Posted 06 April 2013 - 18:12

I see some here are quick to compare him to Lewis with just 2 races in. Not that Im saying hes a rookie. BUT not every driver is as quick as Lewis Hamilton from the word go in a new car. Also people are forgetting that when Lewis joined Mclaren the car was fast. Now hes joined Merc and again the car is good. But this 2013 Mclaren cannot be compared to either the 2013 Merc or the 2007 Mclaren. Thats just wrong.

#81 study

study
  • Member

  • 2,452 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 06 April 2013 - 18:51

Get over it.


Is your adding up dishonest, as I suspent by your sig that you'd have about turn on that point.

#82 trogggy

trogggy
  • Member

  • 7,334 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 06 April 2013 - 18:53

Is your adding up dishonest, as I suspent by your sig that you'd have about turn on that point.

No, it isn't.
What's this snivelling got to do with Perez?

Edited by trogggy, 06 April 2013 - 18:55.


#83 Peter Perfect

Peter Perfect
  • Member

  • 4,877 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 06 April 2013 - 18:58

What was the point of this thread again?

#84 muramasa

muramasa
  • Member

  • 3,213 posts
  • Joined: November 08

Posted 06 April 2013 - 19:13

Have no idea what you're talking about.

of course you havent, that's why you can write such double standard thing.

Massa has had many and long under performing period but still there.
Webber is solid but now 3 or 4 years together its safe to say he's below Vettel by quite a margin.
But it's not like any of these drivers were given chance of just few years.
Yet you give Perez only 1 year in a top team by saying "there's no excuses if he doesn't perform this year.".

Laughable.

Be fair and apply the same standard to drivers like Massa and Webber.
Or even Grosjean, who actually had considerably more overall F1 experience than Perez.


#85 study

study
  • Member

  • 2,452 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 06 April 2013 - 20:03

No, it isn't.
What's this snivelling got to do with Perez?


The point was made:
Button was set for a solid 5th place last race before the pit trouble. To pretend they've been equal is intellectually dishonest and you know it.

To the question, that at the moment, Perez is leading Button, so why question just him


If that statement can't stand for button vs Perez
then why (like in your sig) use a similar scoring for Button vs Lewis

Edited by study, 06 April 2013 - 20:04.


#86 Race2win

Race2win
  • New Member

  • 26 posts
  • Joined: March 13

Posted 06 April 2013 - 20:04

What was the point of this thread again?

+1..... Agreed

#87 rijole1

rijole1
  • Member

  • 633 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 06 April 2013 - 20:12

The one who should do better is the team, build a car that it's as good as the 2007 car, then ask whatever you want to Perez.

:up: It's really unfair to judge the drivers only after 2 races and when the car seems to have some serious problems.
Perez and Button, they haven't been bad if you look at the circumstances at Mclaren right now.

#88 trogggy

trogggy
  • Member

  • 7,334 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 06 April 2013 - 20:12

The point was made:
Button was set for a solid 5th place last race before the pit trouble. To pretend they've been equal is intellectually dishonest and you know it.

To the question, that at the moment, Perez is leading Button, so why question just him


If that statement can't stand for button vs Perez
then why (like in your sig) use a similar scoring for Button vs Lewis

Replied by PM.


#89 jjcale

jjcale
  • Member

  • 7,290 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 06 April 2013 - 20:13

Replied by PM.


Hey!!!

I was looking forward to seeing what you had to say... :p

#90 trogggy

trogggy
  • Member

  • 7,334 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 06 April 2013 - 20:15

Hey!!!

I was looking forward to seeing what you had to say... :p

Copied PM to jj... :lol:

#91 Buttoneer

Buttoneer
  • RC Forum Admin

  • 16,810 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 06 April 2013 - 20:22

This particular bash-a-driver thread has run its course, especially this early in the season.