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Lotus 49 onboard of Circuit of the Americas


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#1 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 16:02

Circuit of the Where? It's in Austin, Texas and is the location of the United States Grand Prix.

http://www.youtube.c...p;v=Opzzn9sl1kU

The pilot is Caterham F1 test driver Alexander Rossi, who clearly has never driven an H-pattern in his life. The downshifts make me wince.

Though he drove a levered sequential gearbox in his formulative years so he shouldn't be a stranger to at least blipping the throttle you'd assume...



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#2 john aston

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 16:10

I am normally reluctant to criticise drivers - because they'r e doing it and I 'm not but really.. ...I fear Mr Rossi's career may be a short one as he can't drive a shovel into a pile of s**t on the basis of this shameful performance. Should have put Jenson in it- there's a man who can heel and toe.

#3 James Page

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 16:13

It seems to want to bite him every time he hits the brakes, too.

That said, it's nice to see a car like this being driven at something approaching representative speeds.

EDIT: having just put headphones on and listened to it properly, yes - the occasional blip of the throttle wouldn't have gone amiss!

Edited by James Page, 05 April 2013 - 16:23.


#4 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 16:16

In his defense it IS a Lotus 49, the track is not very grippy(F1 cars were all over the place in their first practice laps) and he's driven downforce cars all his life. So there is a bit of "what's all this then"

But the gear changes make me despair. It's something you learn on day 1 of getting your competition license, you'd think someone of his experience could figure it out immediately. Or would have driven something that needed it on another occasion.

#5 David M. Kane

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 16:31

Obviously his first laps in the car. They didn't give him much of a briefing!

#6 David McKinney

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 16:49

I only watched the first two minutes. That was enough :down:

#7 arttidesco

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 18:28

If ever there was an advert that the current techno F1 is essentially all wrong watching this film is it :drunk:

#8 E1pix

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 06:52

Sloppy driving indeed, and bad news if he's my nation's next GP driver. :down:

Whether thoroughbred or tractor, speed follows control... never the inverse.

#9 Dipster

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 07:13

Circuit of the Where? It's in Austin, Texas and is the location of the United States Grand Prix.

http://www.youtube.c...p;v=Opzzn9sl1kU

The pilot is Caterham F1 test driver Alexander Rossi, who clearly has never driven an H-pattern in his life. The downshifts make me wince.

Though he drove a levered sequential gearbox in his formulative years so he shouldn't be a stranger to at least blipping the throttle you'd assume...



Wince? Oh yes. Vandalism on a work of art is what I would call it.

#10 Doug Nye

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 08:41

Well how instructive... Once he'd worn out both the gearbox and the steering there was no doubting the kid's reflexes. Bet he was impressed by the 49's braking capability. Rather too much bias to the rear by the look of his entry into some of the turns... That grabs your full attention.

DCN

#11 MartLgn

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 12:01

Whether thoroughbred or tractor, speed follows control... never the inverse.


Who was it who said 'You can tidy up speed but not speed up tidyness?'

#12 nmansellfan

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 13:52

Part of the reason R&T took the 49 to the Circuit of the Americas was to compare it's performance with a modern sports car, a Corvette ZR1, with nigh-on 650 horsepower. The Corvette posted a 2m20 lap (not sure if Mr. Rossi was driving) and the 49 posted a 2m17 lap, running out of revs on the back straight at 165mph with a few hundred metres before the braking point. A 3 litre GP car, even one with no downforce, is still an impressively quick machine I think!

In one of R&T's videos it mentions the Corvette and 49 had almost identical cornering speeds and braking points.

#13 john aston

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 16:16

I am surprised the gap was so small- more domestically a Formula Junior T59 Cooper will lap Cadwell Park in the same time more or less as a new 911GT3.

#14 funformula

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 17:06

Who was it who said 'You can tidy up speed but not speed up tidyness?'


I remember the story JYS driving around Silverstone in a saloon car, showing Juan Pablo Montoya the track, giving the young driver advice, talking and teaching all the time (as usual :) )and seemed to be totally relaxed like grandpa on a sundays afternoon trip.
Montoya was getting slightly pissed about all that, thinking heĀ“ll give this guy some sh..t showing him how the new F1 hotshoe will drive this car REALLY fast.
They changed seat and Juan-Pablo drove his balls out trying to impress the old man on the passenger seat...and was (IIRC 6 seconds) slower.


#15 Mistron

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 17:37

Off original topic, but didn't JYS giva a similar lesson to one of his drivers (F3000 or F1?) and get into a car descibed as 'undrivable' an go markedly quicker? I have a memory it was at Brands

#16 kayemod

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 17:57

I am surprised the gap was so small- more domestically a Formula Junior T59 Cooper will lap Cadwell Park in the same time more or less as a new 911GT3.


Even with a fairly old Lotus 49, I'm surprised as well. Mercedes did some demos a few years ago where they started cars at intervals, around I think Silverstone. An AMG E Class was almost halfway round when they released an F1 car, possibly a McLaren, and it still caught and passed before the end on the lap.


#17 Garsted

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 19:18

Even with a fairly old Lotus 49, I'm surprised as well. Mercedes did some demos a few years ago where they started cars at intervals, around I think Silverstone. An AMG E Class was almost halfway round when they released an F1 car, possibly a McLaren, and it still caught and passed before the end on the lap.



I think this is the one you are thinking of, There is another video where he does a similar thing against some Mercedes racing saloons.
I think the Lotus 49 would have fared better against the Corvette if it had been set a up a little better (I agree with DCN about the brakes) and had a regular historic driver who was familiar with this type of car.

Steve

#18 Doug Nye

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 19:50

...and perhaps who showed it sympathy...

Team Lotus luminary Dick Scammell once told me that at the Nurburgring one year he got the chance to see his cars in action out on track. He couldn't believe how much the drivers were abusing them! Yet onboard footage of the same drivers in the same cars showed smooth, rhythmic, sympathy. Granted, they wouldn't have been so quick with a cine camera attached, but at least they had it in them...This isn't a fair comparison, given Rossi's inexperience, but in cars of that period not getting out of shape saved swags of time.
I guess some things don't change?

DCN

#19 David M. Kane

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 21:29

...and perhaps who showed it sympathy...

Team Lotus luminary Dick Scammell once told me that at the Nurburgring one year he got the chance to see his cars in action out on track. He couldn't believe how much the drivers were abusing them! Yet onboard footage of the same drivers in the same cars showed smooth, rhythmic, sympathy. Granted, they wouldn't have been so quick with a cine camera attached, but at least they had it in them...This isn't a fair comparison, given Rossi's inexperience, but in cars of that period not getting out of shape saved swags of time.
I guess some things don't change?

DCN


I believe he wasn't given a proper briefing. Having driven a DFV powered '74 March 741, my first go literally was a massive shock. The engine and gearbox were much, much more than I was prepared for mentally and physically..


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#20 Nick Planas

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 00:02

I believe he wasn't given a proper briefing. Having driven a DFV powered '74 March 741, my first go literally was a massive shock. The engine and gearbox were much, much more than I was prepared for mentally and physically..


If this is the case, good for him. Certainly spectacular - wonder how many more laps before the 'box gave out though!

Am I alone in wishing that Mario could have been asked to do this as well, having raced this car too - I would LOVE to see him giving it some real stick!

#21 brucemoxon

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 00:48

Had he never driven a Formula Ford? Heel-and-toe downchanges and no aero shouldn't have taken him by surprise then.

I too could only watch for a little while - to see a car like this being driven so horribly badly... Reminded me of Satoro Nakajima. The theory among my car club mates was he was out there with a camera so we'd know how we'd look. Then it turned out he was just not strong enough to drive the car. Goes to show...

This is much less distressing...





Bruce Moxon

#22 brucemoxon

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 00:49

Had he never driven a Formula Ford? Heel-and-toe downchanges and no aero shouldn't have taken him by surprise then.

I too could only watch for a little while - to see a car like this being driven so horribly badly... Reminded me of Satoro Nakajima. The theory among my car club mates was he was out there with a camera so we'd know how we'd look. Then it turned out he was just not strong enough to drive the car. Goes to show...

This is much less distressing...





Bruce Moxon

#23 Les

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 01:23

Had he never driven a Formula Ford? Heel-and-toe downchanges and no aero shouldn't have taken him by surprise then.

I too could only watch for a little while - to see a car like this being driven so horribly badly... Reminded me of Satoro Nakajima. The theory among my car club mates was he was out there with a camera so we'd know how we'd look. Then it turned out he was just not strong enough to drive the car. Goes to show...

This is much less distressing...





Bruce Moxon


The noise! Sublime!

He's not quite going at full pelt but I thought this vid of the master at work in a 25 was appropriate, especially as its the sad anniversary of his death today.



#24 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 06:31

Is this better?

http://www.youtube.c...p;v=daUJc70CjhA

Vince H.

#25 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 10:56

It's hard to tell from the way it is filmed but Brundle doesn't seem to be driving anywhere near as hard. And I don't mean in technique terms, rather that he's doing what looks like warm-up laps.

#26 kayemod

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 11:48

It's hard to tell from the way it is filmed but Brundle doesn't seem to be driving anywhere near as hard. And I don't mean in technique terms, rather that he's doing what looks like warm-up laps.


I thought that he was just showing due deference to an important piece of motor racing history, I'm sure he could have gone faster, but his gear changes were lovely.


#27 jj2728

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 13:14

Why couldn't someone have rung up Jackie Oliver?

#28 Gary C

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 15:26

Jackie Oliver? The man who has crashed more 49's than anyone else! Think about it............ LOL.

#29 Cargo

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 05:19

Gruesome stuff ...An F1 driver who can't change gear? :confused: Chapman, Hill, Clark and Rindt are all spinning in their graves....Caterham need to dump this Rossi character. Even I could have done better... but doubt I would fit in the cockpit. :lol:

What R&T should have done was to have got Fittipaldi to do the test. He's still around.

#30 fer312t

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 05:42

Caterham need to dump this Rossi character. Even I could have done better...


To see Lotus 49 driven at 1/5 speed is more insulting to me than some awkward down changes. :wave:

For his sake and the car's though, a bit more briefing and practice in this area (before filming) would have been better! I like the fact that he drove the car, and generally think some of you cranks are being a bit too critical :cool:

What R&T should have done was to have got Fittipaldi to do the test. He's still around.


I think the whole point of test was to play up the generational gap between car and driver...

Do we think he would have had an easier/harder time if it were Hewland rather than the 'sequential' ZF?

#31 jeremy durward

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 08:57

Do we think he would have had an easier/harder time if it were Hewland rather than the 'sequential' ZF?


Which gearbox is in this car? Didn't the original 49 run a sychro ZF box?


#32 fer312t

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 09:07

Which gearbox is in this car? Didn't the original 49 run a sychro ZF box?


Yes, the ZF...which, as I understand it, has a mechanism that requires you go through the gears sequentially.

#33 jeremy durward

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 09:58

I'm not sure this is the "sequential" ZF box, that I think last saw service in the Lotus 18... But I've been wrong before. But as a synchro gearbox could that help explain the downshifts? A worn out synchro box can be a huge pain to downshift at speed, maybe that helps explain the dificulties the driver is having?

#34 kayemod

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 10:02

I'm not sure this is the "sequential" ZF box, that I think last saw service in the Lotus 18...


Doesn't Martin Brundle tell us that it's a sequential box during his run at Silverstone?

#35 jeremy durward

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 10:57

Doesn't Martin Brundle tell us that it's a sequential box during his run at Silverstone?


I took that to mean that you must use all the gears without skipping any, rather than a sequential change in the modern sense.

#36 kayemod

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 11:02

I took that to mean that you must use all the gears without skipping any, rather than a sequential change in the modern sense.


That's what I meant, you can see the H-pattern gate in cockpit shots, did sequential boxes in the current sense exist in the 60s?


#37 jeremy durward

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 11:14

That's what I meant, you can see the H-pattern gate in cockpit shots, did sequential boxes in the current sense exist in the 60s?


The Lotus had what was called the queerbox, which was sequential as I understand it minus the ratcheting lever that came back to centre. I think it was used in the 12 16 and then a transaxle version in the 18.

#38 RS250

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 13:12

Just watched the film - oh dear.....
In the light of recent events (Piper v Hales) I'd love to hear Mark Hales thoughts.
Anybody know who picked up the tab for the repair to what used to be a gearbox?







#39 Dipster

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 14:17

That's what I meant, you can see the H-pattern gate in cockpit shots, did sequential boxes in the current sense exist in the 60s?


Certainly they did on bikes.

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#40 MonzaDriver

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 12:46

Certainly they did on bikes.


What a beautiful thread !!!
Surely one can wonder is this a F1 test driver ???
My opinon is that is not his fault. Maybe he could use the brain a lot more and realize this is not his F1 and needed a different driving.
But this is his only mistake.
To me this gearbox is a lot different from the original one, and also the engine seems a lot " quiet"
If I remember correctly first gear was toward the rear and closer to the driver leg, and surely those cars have 5 gears.
But why we presume this Alexander Rossi could drive well this masterpiece of F1 car.
We all know, he cannot be Jim Clark, even if was the reincarnation of Jim Clark he cannot drive it well.
Under the bridge, he totally forget weight transfer, and he lift off too harsh, and the car goes from under to oversteer to suddenly.
Almost to the point he loose it.
But why he would know that, with today downforce you dont care about weight transfer in a bend like this.
Today F1 stay in the same trajectory anyway.
And the same for the racing line, even if he took it wrong, one meters too wide for example,
with today F1 tyres with a brutal steering wheel stroke, you can put it back in the racing line.
And the lapt time it's the same.
With this Lotus 49 that cost you a second.
Alexander Rossi goes wide on the exit, the rear wheel is on the curb and the wheelspinning became worst, but he doesn't care.
Why? Because with today F1 you can go even on grass, put the foot down with almost 800 horsepower, and the car doesn't react.
Electronics keep it there. Like we saw on the last GP with Perez it work also on desert's sand.
Every time Rossi put it in first rear he would use the second, because the slow down is so brutal he almost spin.
With today F1 with seven gears in a lot of hairpins it's almost the same first or second gear, the lap time it's the same.
And the use of the steering wheel on the esses ??? Why smooth, have a look at Austin GP onboard camera of the Grand Prix,
in those esses............... horrible.
With this Lotus 49, you cannot do the silly things Perez and Button done during the last GP. This Lotus spins even if you think about it.
So in the past, you have to be a correct racing driver, you have to be a gentlemen, because with this Lotus 49,
you have to use the tow and then try once to overtake the next car, you cannot zig-zag anywhere.
So this Alexandre Rossi is bad, well Vettel would be even worst, Webber would not be able to complete a race in this Lotus 49.
Michael Schumacher would not win even a single world championship.
From the introduction of wings, racing drivers became worst and less good any time.
With the " HELP" of all those " race engeneers " , that thought they are more important than the driver.
Because of this youtube demostration of degeneraton of racing........we canbe sure
Jackie Stewart is the last real racing driver.

Ciao to all.
MonzaDriver